What if the Disney classic Fantasia was launched on Blu?

[Ernest Rister]

"Although most historians today trace all the fuss back to a disgruntled black ex-animator from Disney, who started the "Walt is racist!" finger-pointing headlines after leaving the studio, even though the NAACP found no major objections to their SotS screening.)"

Song of the South was controversial even in 1946 -- the Urban League protested the film, even if the NAACP did not. The film is replete with racial stereotypes, and while I agree the film is not racist (the only decent characters in the film are the African-American sharecroppers, the villains are all white, including the boy's parents) it is impossible to deny the appearance of the racial stereotypes, which in itself are enough to cause concern and offense for some.

The true problem with releasing SOTS today is that protest groups - eager for publicity that increases their fundraising - would seize on it and make all sorts of charges to get their organization onto the 5:00 p.m. news, and then Disney would have to waste money defending the charges, and the resulting publicity firestorm would not help anybody. It would cause nothing but bad feelings stateside, so I understand Iger's decision (and Eisner's before him) to simply let the film lie.

In any case, aside from the marvelous animated vignettes, the film is more boring than watching ice melt. I think it was Bosley Crowther of the New York Times who famously said the ratio of live action to animation in the film was three to one, and that this was precisely the ratio of the film's mediocrity to its charm. That pretty much sums up the film perfectly.

If you really want it, just import it. Otherwise, you're not missing much.

[The Big Blue]

Ernest! Holy crap! Great to see you here. I never could figure out where you disappeared to post-htf.

Welcome.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by Joe Cain

Now there's a showcase for seamless branching: why not go all out and include every edit ever released? There are...what, half a dozen or so?

1940 Road Show
1941 RKO version
1947 "Popular Version"
1955/56 "Cinemascope Version" (pretty much the same as 1947, just in wide-screen)
1967 Censored Version
1982 Irwin Kostal version
1990 "Restored" Version
2000 "Restored Road Show" version

[erowe83]

the original Fantasia on blu would be awesome

[Joe Cain]

Originally Posted by Mark J. Marshall

I know of no one that is offended by Song Of The South. Do you?

Actually, I'm pretty offended by Song of the South....which does not preclude wanting to own a better copy than the one I have.

It's not an intellectual thing, it's a gut reaction, a visceral sensation, and it's born of trying to reconcile the happy singing working Negro myth with the original source material that can be found in the slave narratives. I know James Baskett got on Oscar for Remus (a "special" Oscar); I also know that this film was produced in a social climate in which victims of racial violence included black Americans serving in the US military in uniform on American soil during wartime. SOTS came out 80 years after the Emancipation Proclamation and about a quarter century before the country truly began to make good on its promise...even today there are Americans who hold the Christian cross and the Confederate flag in equal regard (and not because of states' rights). The past didn't go anywhere.

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

In any case, aside from the marvelous animated vignettes, the film is more boring than watching ice melt. I think it was Bosley Crowther of the New York Times who famously said the ratio of live action to animation in the film was three to one, and that this was precisely the ratio of the film's mediocrity to its charm. That pretty much sums up the film perfectly.

--- .

[Ernest Rister]

By the way -- if anyone wants to see classic top-of-the-line Walt-era animation on Blu-Ray in 1080 right now...all they have to do is buy Roving Mars, which contains the full Disneyland episode Mars and Beyond. Directed by animation legend Ward Kimball, the episode features some outstanding imaginative ideas about life on other planets. The almost hour-long episode is windowboxed for widescreen TV's, and is in 1080p (I think - maybe 1080i, the back of the box isn't clear).

Either way, it's the first appearance of true Walt Disney animation on Blu-Ray, and it's wonderful. The image is very similar to its last outing on the Walt Disney Treasures: Tomorrowland release, and appears to be the same master. Color fidelity and saturation are much richer, though, and the sharpness and clarity are much improved, even on a standard definition television.

By the way, "Your Friend, the Rat" on the Ratatouille disc pays direct homage to "Mars and Beyond". Check it out.

Oh, and Roving Mars is pretty cool in its own right -- but I consider it to be the supplement to Mars and Beyond, despite what the box art says.

[EricJ]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

By the way -- if anyone wants to see classic top-of-the-line Walt-era animation on Blu-Ray in 1080 right now...all they have to do is buy Roving Mars, which contains the full Disneyland episode Mars and Beyond. Directed by animation legend Ward Kimball, the episode features some outstanding imaginative ideas about life on other planets. The almost hour-long episode is windowboxed for widescreen TV's, and is in 1080p (I think - maybe 1080i, the back of the box isn't clear).
The image is very similar to its last outing on the Walt Disney Treasures: Tomorrowland release, and appears to be the same master.

In fact, just about any of the Ward Kimball "History of science" cartoons on the Disney Treasures "Tomorrowland" DVD set is worth the rent alone--
Ward was definitely the nut of the Nine Old animators (he's the one who first started that "Walt frozen" rumor, btw) , and that the cartoon shorts were co-written by John Dunn (of Pink Panther and Road Runner fame), "Life on Mars?" and the moon short have to be some of the Chuck-Jones-looniest 50's/60's animation ever to come out of the studio...

Heard that "Roving Mars" was just a boring piece on the building of the Mars probe with not much surface footage, so haven't rented it yet, but watching the Mars short in 1080 is pretty darn tempting.

[larryj763]

Disney's first feature animation, "Snow White", was a huge critical and financial success (though Disney didn't realize much profit from it; most went to pay back loans). None of his other animations recouped their costs, and not many received good reviews. (These only became profitable after first run, and so many have become classics.) As for style/quality, "Snow White", because of the time and effort lavished on it, probably was only matched by "Fantasia"; after that, most of the animation, including the (herein) lauded "Sleeping Beauty", was done trying to cut costs, and so not regarded as the same quality. And other than "Snow White" and "Fantasia", the only other film for which Walt gave as much personal attention was "Mary Poppins".

ALL of these films should have BD treatment, in my opinion.

(comments based on my recollection of the recently completed read of "Walt Disney: The Triumph of the American Imagination" by Neal Gabler. There also quite a discussion of "Song of the South"; Walt was not a racist, per the biographer. In fact, I don't recall a specific mention of any animator being black, but then, the biography was so detail-laden, it might be I've simply forgotten. It is a good read for anyone truly interested in Disney, if you can wade through those details and have a big vocabulary. )

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by larryj763

Disney's first feature animation, "Snow White", was a huge critical and financial success (though Disney didn't realize much profit from it; most went to pay back loans). None of his other animations recouped their costs, and not many received good reviews. (These only became profitable after first run, and so many have become classics.) As for style/quality, "Snow White", because of the time and effort lavished on it, probably was only matched by "Fantasia"; after that, most of the animation, including the (herein) lauded "Sleeping Beauty", was done trying to cut costs, and so not regarded as the same quality. And other than "Snow White" and "Fantasia", the only other film for which Walt gave as much personal attention was "Mary Poppins".

Pinocchio was Walt's 2nd animated film, and it is by far and away his most lavish animated effort. It was also the equal of Snow White in terms of critical praise, if not exceeding it. Because of the enormous expense of the film and the loss of the foreign market due to WWII, it failed at the box office, as did Fantasia (released the same year as Pinocchio). But it is Pinocchio, not Snow White or Fantasia that is regarded as the high-point of Disney feature animation, perhaps the high-point of feature animation itself.

Dumbo was a success financially and critically. Bambi received more mixed reviews because of the violence. Saludos Amigos was a smash relative to cost and received three Oscar nominations. The Three Caballeros was a mixed bag all around, although animation fans have raved about Kimball's work in the film for decades. Song of the South was a smash, Cinderella was major hit, and Peter Pan and Lady and the Tramp did well, also. Not so successful were package films Make Mine Music, Melody Time, Fun and Fancy Free and Adventures of Ichabod and Mr. Toad.

Sleeping Beauty was a disappointment relative to cost, but 101 Dalmatians released the next year and was a hit.

That's pretty much how things worked -- one film would come out and hit gold, the next one not so much, but it is a credit to Walt that he continued the tradition even in the face of adversity and still manage not to repeat himself.

[Nerdkiller likes BD]

Ahhh, this is a great thread all round. I've never expected so many people to be so technicial on what the Disney animations would be about, all I just asked was "what if the Disney classic Fantasia was launched on blu?" and yet all the posts reveal more about the movie and the early days of Disney animation. Great work guys, keep it up.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by Joe Cain

Walt's original plan was for Fantasia to be a rotating repertory piece, going out on the road with new pieces substituting for old.

Last night the kids were watching Fantasia 2000...both films are favorites in our house, and I very much appreciate how the kids respond to them: instead of sitting rapt, mouth-breathing & hypnotized, they're constantly talking to the film or about what's onscreen; it's not a passive experience, and I like that. Anyway, 2000 gets more play for its much shorter running time and for the selection of pieces; from the original, "Night on Bald Mountain" is just way too much, at least for the youngest, and they've been known to lose interest in "The Rite of Spring" and Beethoven's "Pastoral" from time to time.

With BD's seamless branching capabilities, I think it would be neat if they could fit both films onto a single disc and allow the viewer to make selections from both, creating a personalized Fantasia experience. It'll never happen, but I like the idea a lot.

(I also like the idea of making another film in the series around the music that is arguably America's greatest contribution to world culture and which has sadly become as unappreciated as classical music; if I ever get a sit-down with John Lasseter I'm gonna push the jazz Fantasia hard.)

I love the idea of "making your own program" -- especially if you were allowed to use the re-constructed Claire de Lune and The Little Match Girl. It is my understanding that Match Girl was intended for the "Fantasia 2010" project before it got scuttled in the hand-drawn animation bloodbath of Eisner's final years. It would be nice to have that in the mix.

As far as a Jazz "Fantasia", you should check out "Bumble Boogie", "All the Cats Join In" and "After You've Gone" from Make Mine Music. All serve that purpose very well.

[Deciazulado]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

The almost hour-long episode is windowboxed for widescreen TV's, and is in 1080p (I think - maybe 1080i, the back of the box isn't clear).

1080p

It can be zoomed to widescreen too if you want to fill the screen as it seems to be shot protected for that.



Anyway Fantasia is a work of art and it's my favorite Disney movie. Have 1 LD and 2 different versions on DVD.

Here's a sample of the beautiful backgrounds, recreated from the DVD using a clever photocollage techique by michaelspornanimation.com:

One of the Nutcracker Suite backgrounds

[juzam]

Great info on this thread. Keep it going guys. Do we have a Disneey insider? It would be nice to know some confirmation about what's down the pipes after Sleeping Beatuty on Blu.

[EricJ]

Originally Posted by juzam

Great info on this thread. Keep it going guys. Do we have a Disneey insider? It would be nice to know some confirmation about what's down the pipes after Sleeping Beatuty on Blu.

All we have to go by is Disney's own list from the end of the "Make it Blu!" ad from last year, circa the Cars DVD.
(Which, ironically, featured loads of Sleeping Beauty clips, but left it off the list.)

Back then, the list included the remaining Pixars (incldg. Finding Nemo, already announced), the three IMAX-definition upgrades (B&B, Lion King, Aladdin), Little Mermaid (the first Platinum to be remastered after Disney went Blu), "and many more!"...

Which pretty well reflected where all Blu was in '06: Widescreens and CGI.
But at least gives us an estimate on which projects were already being prepped long before anyone knew who won.

[Brandon B]

Ernest - really good to see you posting here. Your posts about Disney long ago on HTF were always really interesting and informative.

BB

[androvsky]

Originally Posted by EricJ

And then they restored the original sountrack BACK onto 5.1, for the '01 DVD set--
Unfortunately, they'd lost about 3/4 of the Deems Taylor narration over thirty years of assorted cuts, so we'd had to settle for a dubbed imitator.
Still, the '01 restoration does end a few questions in the thread.

My understanding was the original soundtrack had two versions: one was an incredible 18 channel surround sound setup, which is why the first release was a roadshow; they had to cart around a massive amount of sound equipment to each theater, which is the reason the original didn't make much money. I've heard this version was forever lost a long time ago.

Then there was some sort of optical print soundtracks made for a wider release, these were stereo at best. I got the distinct impression it's the poorer optical version that was remastered into 5.1. I remember being annoyed that the violin section kept moving back and forth between the left and right speakers in one section (don't remember which one), as if it was being panned as was typical for a 5.1 remix of the era. Was the original orchestra large enough to do panning within the violin section, or was the 5.1 mix just poorly done?

[mikenike]

Both Fantasia on Blu would be awesome. Fantasia is a great example of what cinema should always strive for--beautiful visuals that is matched by great music. If Disney can remaster it for 7.1 surround on top of great picture quality, I'd buy both.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by androvsky

My understanding was the original soundtrack had two versions: one was an incredible 18 channel surround sound setup, which is why the first release was a roadshow; they had to cart around a massive amount of sound equipment to each theater, which is the reason the original didn't make much money. I've heard this version was forever lost a long time ago.

Then there was some sort of optical print soundtracks made for a wider release, these were stereo at best. I got the distinct impression it's the poorer optical version that was remastered into 5.1. I remember being annoyed that the violin section kept moving back and forth between the left and right speakers in one section (don't remember which one), as if it was being panned as was typical for a 5.1 remix of the era. Was the original orchestra large enough to do panning within the violin section, or was the 5.1 mix just poorly done?

The original Fantasound set up was 32 speakers - 8 on each side of the theater. The sound "panned" all over the room, very much akin to what you hear on the DVD. It would be interesting to get a time machine and experience the original presentation, but I doubt it would sound any better than what we presently have. As far as I know, the only real loss to the modern presentation vs. the original FantaSound was the "Ave Maria" at the end, where sound of the seperately mixed chorus proceeded from the back of the house and "walked" towards the screen as the segment continued to the sunburst finale. Kind of hard to do with a modern home set-up, even in 7.1

The original optical FantaSound tracks were transferred to magnetic masters in the 50's. These magnetic "dupes" were then used to restore the audio in the 90's, because the original FantaSound optical tracks had long since been destroyed.

[Blu-baton]

Originally Posted by androvsky

My understanding was the original soundtrack had two versions: one was an incredible 18 channel surround sound setup, which is why the first release was a roadshow; they had to cart around a massive amount of sound equipment to each theater, which is the reason the original didn't make much money. I've heard this version was forever lost a long time ago.

Then there was some sort of optical print soundtracks made for a wider release, these were stereo at best. I got the distinct impression it's the poorer optical version that was remastered into 5.1. I remember being annoyed that the violin section kept moving back and forth between the left and right speakers in one section (don't remember which one), as if it was being panned as was typical for a 5.1 remix of the era. Was the original orchestra large enough to do panning within the violin section, or was the 5.1 mix just poorly done?

You are correct on all counts, although the onset of the war also had a lot to do with the sad fate of the eight track process known as "Fantasound". The original tracks are believed to be lost and the stereo track dates for the 50's. In 1990, great effort was made to release a cleaned up copy of the Stero track into a multi track audio, but the results, to my ears, were not that convincing. I should also be noted that the Sorcerer's Apprentice was not recorded in Fantasound, and in fact was not actually performed by the Philly Orchestra but by an LA pickup (those musicians are actually the ones who appear on the screen).

As far as panning goes, every track except Sorcerer was done by the Philly Orch, therefore the violin seating was most likely the modern North American setting (championed by Stokowsky) with both fiddle sections on the left and any panning effect is probably due to poor mixing. However, it is likely that the LA studio that recorded the Dukas used 19th century seating with 1st violins on the left and 2nd violins on the right which could explain what you have heard at least on that particular segment. Since I have not heard Fantasia in many years, I cannot recall hearing those effects.

[Marcusarilius]

Originally Posted by Nerdkiller likes BD

The whole reason that this movie should be on BD is not about the visual quality, it would be about the sound. It should have digitally remastered 7.1 PCM lossless audio as thats whats the BD release is all about. Its what Walt would've wanted. And if the sound doesn't go well, being a movie from the forties, they could always rehire some new orchestra team to do the same music for the BD release. Let me know what you would think about Fantasia on blu and if it's a good idea.

I will buy every Disney classic in a New York minute. I like your idea about adding a new orchestra track and a 7.1 mix, but only if the original version is included and kept pure as when released to theaters. Fantasia is amazing and blu-ray will make these Disney classics absolutely stunnung!