The Killing and Killer's Kiss 4K UHDs (1955-1956)

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by MifuneFan

I'm not sure if it's been officially stated by Kino yet, but it seems pretty clear that 4K licensing is completely separate for MGM than BD licensing. So release dates of those Criterion titles would have no bearing whatsoever on this since they would seemingly have to make two separate licensing agreements to get both BD and 4K rights.

KLI has been talking about having the 4K rights to [whatever MGM movie/bundle] for years, since at least the 2018/2019 period when several of those Criterions were released and even before that, they just didn't exercise them because the gains weren't worth the cost at that point. TGTBATU is an example, if I remember rightly KLI always maintained that they had the UHD rights from day 1 with that license, bearing in mind their BD was released in 2017 and they were already trying to gauge whether a 4K would be worth it in Q4 of that same year: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...y#post14312259.

A 4K version is clearly a separate license but, as said, it appeared as if MGM were bundling in the parallel 4K rights with x movie almost by default, and it certainly didn't seem to cost Kino anything for having those rights but not using them.

We also have no idea when MGM started allowing labels to get 4K licensing rights from them. My stance is, it's very possible, if not likely, that Kino was granted first access right when the gates opened. Neither of us knows what's the truth, and it's all speculation either way, so I'll just leave it at that.

So the idea is that those MGM 4K rights were only offered to Kino, even when they weren't using them, and that everyone else who applied for licenses during this time was only offered BD rights? I dunno, dude. It just seems to me like Kino have simply been shrewd AF, that while Criterion were still privately umming and ahing about going 4K and publicly shitting on 4K (again, Lee Kline says "h!") Kino enquired about all these properties and were told that Criterion hadn't exercised the 4K option. Perhaps there's some sort of shorter time limit to using the 4K rights, i.e. Criterion had them but let them lapse, but then that doesn't work for Great Escape because it's barely been 18 months since Criterion released that on BD.

Shit, I'm confusing myself at this point. It is all speculation as you say. But I still don't think that a company like Criterion gets gazumped so easily as they have done here without making those decisions for themselves. The truth prolly lies in the middle, that this is the natural result of Criterion's erstwhile apathy (if not downright disdain) towards 4K UHD and Kino's favourable position at MGM.

[Adam4Rizzel]

Excellent news. I hope that Kino's 2022 slate is problem free.

[Christian Muth]

Originally Posted by Poya

...Wish the same could be said for Scorsese's. I know he's made more but Kundun deserves a 4K release!

KUNDUN should look stunning in 4K. It's probably the best-looking Super-35 shot 'Scope film I've ever seen projected in a theater. It was razor-sharp with very fine grain, and that was during the pre-DI optical-dupe Super-35 era! A 4K scan from the original negative should be gorgeous.

Chris

[Adam4Rizzel]

Originally Posted by Christian Muth

KUNDUN could look stunning in 4K. It's probably the best-looking Super-35 'Scope film I've ever seen projected in a theater. It was razor-sharp with very fine grain, and that was during the optical-dupe Super-35 era, predating DIs! A 4K scan from the original negative should be gorgeous.

Chris

Hard imagining Disney giving that film a prominent release regarding the film's geopolitical issues. Criterion or Kino are probably the best bet for something like that. With Disney doing business in China, they would like the government to forget that the film even exists. I'm honestly surprised that Disney let Kino release it on BD in 2019.

[Rizor]

Happy to get these Kubrick titles upgraded to 4K. Now we just need WB to get out their remaining titles.

[GG88]

Originally Posted by MifuneFan

I'm not sure if it's been officially stated by Kino yet, but it seems pretty clear that 4K licensing is completely separate for MGM than BD licensing. So release dates of those Criterion titles would have no bearing whatsoever on this since they would seemingly have to make two separate licensing agreements to get both BD and 4K rights.

We also have no idea when MGM started allowing labels to get 4K licensing rights from them. My stance is, it's very possible, if not likely, that Kino was granted first access right when the gates opened. Neither of us knows what's the truth, and it's all speculation either way, so I'll just leave it at that.

Kino have stated that 4k rights are separate for the MGM titles. Though I suspect this will vary amongst contracts for different licensees with some being for all home media.

We know MGM started licensing sometime before February 2019 as that,s when Kino announced their first UHD:

https://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=24599

IIRC they said at the time Good, Bad Ugly would follow if sales were strong but that only got announced at the end of 2020:

https://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=27903

I think it’s only after GBU sold it’s first pressing instantly than Kino went back and did the bulk deal with MGM. My guess is Criterion simply never asked MGM about the 4k rights as they busy planning other releases

Originally Posted by Poya

Damn, Kubrick's entire catalog will soon be upgraded to 4K. Wish the same could be said for Scorsese's. I know he's made more but Kundun deserves a 4K release!

You really expecting Fear and Desire UHD anytime soon? The rest do seem to be inevitable, if Warner keep up with one a year will have them by 2024.

Sadly we are still waiting for some Scorsese’s on Blu ray

Originally Posted by yoloswegmaster420

Amusing for KL Insider to say that 4K releases for To Kill a Mockingbird and Witness for the Prosecution weren't going to sell well but then release a 4K version of 'Killer's Kiss', one of Kubrick's lesser-acclaimed and not as well-known titles. It's especially nowhere near as well known or regarded as 'To Kill a Mockingbird' or 'Witness for the Prosecution'.

I’m surprised by those comments by KL Insider. Both those titles seem plausible UHD releases to me. I believe Mockingbird is rumoured for Universal’s 2022 slate for the 60th Anniversary. I’m not sure if Witness has a 4k master but if it does and the other Wilder’s do well maybe we’ll get it down the road

If Kubrick had a much bigger filmography we probably wouldn’t be seeing Killer’s Kiss but as there’s only 13 feature length films so I imagine there’s enough Kubrick completist to justify the UHD.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Criterion's reticence towards 4K disc is the stuff of infamy, and keep in mind that Arrow were similarly inclined until they had their Damascene conversion so I'm not shocked that The Apartment was also pinched by Kino. RoboCop was not however, and the wording of James Flower's posts on Twitter would appear to indicate that they actually had those rights from the start e.g. "we weren't able to do a 4K UHD until now".

I took James Flowers comments to mean they had only just acquired the 4k rights and originally just had blu ray rights. He also mentioned MGM wouldn’t let them do a new 4k scan for the whole film but there were able to do new scans for the directors cut gore. To me this seems more likely to be a request in a new deal as I doubt they’d want a new scan when just doing a blu release when there was already a decent 4k scan.

It also would make sense for Arrow’s first UHD major studio deal to be with their BFF Uni and only if UHD sales were strong enough expand to other studios. Generally get more Uni titles and they stay in print longer. A fair few Arrow-MGM’s are OOP, some after a relatively short time (Ronin, Fish called Wanda etc.)

I seem to remember Arrow’s Apartment LE took ages to sell out. The standard edition was released after 11 months. So maybe that’s why Arrow didn’t upgrade? They also seem to be largely moving away from Academy type releases (regardless of what they said)

Originally Posted by jkoffman

Seems like a good time to remind everyone that 4K restorations and releases are more expensive to produce. Businesses still have to make business decisions in the end. Criterion can't just flick a switch and re-release everything just because it's an ideal presentation that we'd all like to see.

Of all the boutique labels Criterion seem the least business minded. E,g, Most labels have limited edition slips to encourage full price orders rather than waiting for sale prices.

[Snicket]

Great news for Kino, bad news for collectors.

At least there is nothing in the MGM slate that I would be heartbroken about having a less then perfect release.

[Poya]

Originally Posted by Christian Muth

KUNDUN should look stunning in 4K. It's probably the best-looking Super-35 shot 'Scope film I've ever seen projected in a theater. It was razor-sharp with very fine grain, and that was during the optical-dupe Super-35 era, predating DIs! A 4K scan from the original negative should be gorgeous.

Chris

It's a shame Scorsese didn't collaborate with Deakins after that, or even before. Match made in Heaven.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by GG88

Of all the boutique labels Criterion seem the least business minded.

In all honesty I think this is simply what it comes down to. Even IF there's some grand conspiracy to let Kino have the pick of the 4K bunch...why didn't Criterion get in there first to demand a similar deal? Answer: 4K iz bollox to them, well, it was until a few months ago. They've been caught on the hop and if it makes them look like idiots, I can't say that that's an unfair assessment. It's the painting of them as the poor wronged party here that I can't reconcile.

[yoloswegmaster420]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

In all honesty I think this is simply what it comes down to. Even IF there's some grand conspiracy to let Kino have the pick of the 4K bunch...why didn't Criterion get in there first to demand a similar deal? Answer: 4K iz bollox to them, well, it was until a few months ago. They've been caught on the hop and if it makes them look like idiots, I can't say that that's an unfair assessment. It's the painting of them as the poor wronged party here that I can't reconcile.

Not really sure how they would have thought 4K is bollocks until now if they were planning on releasing 4K titles back in 2019 (this is according to George Feltenstein and I can't see any reason for him to lie about it). Also, just because Lee Kline said some negative things on his podcast doesn't necessarily mean that the rest of Criterion's employees and higher-ups share the same view point as him (in fact, I don't think I've heard any of the other employees state their opinions on 4K). Maybe Lee needs to have a disclaimer on his site stating "My opinions expressed on my podcast are entirely my own and do not represent any website, company or other commercial entity." Let's also not forget that after KL released SOTL on both 4K and the reg blu disc, they all of a sudden aren't allowed to put Some Like it Hot on the blu disc. This to me sounds like the Big C were indeed unaware of the new KL-MGM deal, and are now forcing KL to not include a bluray with the film on it for their 4k releases since it would break the rules that the C has with MGM.

Anyways, it doesn't matter who releases it at the end of the day. This is just harmless speculation and just as long as there are no serious problems or issues with the release, I will happily buy these discs.

[dallywhitty]

Criterion are the greatest label of all time and have never done wrong and anybody who disagrees should be k-worded.

[Bates_Motel]

Originally Posted by MifuneFan

I'm not sure if it's been officially stated by Kino yet, but it seems pretty clear that 4K licensing is completely separate for MGM than BD licensing. So release dates of those Criterion titles would have no bearing whatsoever on this since they would seemingly have to make two separate licensing agreements to get both BD and 4K rights.

We also have no idea when MGM started allowing labels to get 4K licensing rights from them. My stance is, it's very possible, if not likely, that Kino was granted first access right when the gates opened. Neither of us knows what's the truth, and it's all speculation either way, so I'll just leave it at that.

Blu-ray licensing is completely different from DVD licensing, so of course it is. Each format has its own sub license, always been that way. One reason contracts had to continually be re-written after DVD came out, because it wasn't included on VHS licensing.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by yoloswegmaster420

Not really sure how they would have thought 4K is bollocks until now if they were planning on releasing 4K titles back in 2019 (this is according to George Feltenstein and I can't see any reason for him to lie about it). Also, just because Lee Kline said some negative things on his podcast doesn't necessarily mean that the rest of Criterion's employees and higher-ups share the same view point as him (in fact, I don't think I've heard any of the other employees state their opinions on 4K). Maybe Lee needs to have a disclaimer on his site stating "My opinions expressed on my podcast are entirely my own and do not represent any website, company or other commercial entity." Let's also not forget that after KL released SOTL on both 4K and the reg blu disc, they all of a sudden aren't allowed to put Some Like it Hot on the blu disc. This to me sounds like the Big C were indeed unaware of the new KL-MGM deal, and are now forcing KL to not include a bluray with the film on it for their 4k releases since it would break the rules that the C has with MGM.

Anyways, it doesn't matter who releases it at the end of the day. This is just harmless speculation and just as long as there are no serious problems or issues with the release, I will happily buy these discs.

Not just on his own podcast, also when being interviewed as a representative of the Criterion Collection. Do they have to be made 'aware' that another studio has pinched the rights to something? The Blu-ray thing seems quite straightforward to me, that Kino thought there was a grey area with them including their own BD in the UHD package - grey enough to the point where that SOTL release has not been recalled because of it - but Criterion insisted otherwise, that Kino's rights apply to the UHD only.

But yes, like all sought-after arrivals in life I just hope they get here in one piece, even if we are arguing about who the father is.

[gates70]

Originally Posted by BluProofie

Don’t like Killer’s Kiss enough to get a stand-alone 4K, but I’ll double dip on The Killing if it’s good.

We should be more concerned over the likelihood that Kino will botch their 4K titles.

Jesus, how many times are you going to repeat yourself in every thread, we get it they ****ed up. No amount of repeating yourself is going to change that.

[Kyle15]

The Killing and Killer's Kiss

[dallywhitty]

Originally Posted by Kyle15

The Killing and Killer's Kiss

Killer's Kiss and The Killing

[Chumley]

Originally Posted by Kyle15

Oh dear. Would be excited but I'm avoiding this unless it isn't a mess.

Says the person who moved to Alabama.

[gates70]

Originally Posted by BluProofie

So sorry I ruined the thread by making two posts.

Nah you've been repeating yourself in a lot of Kino threads lately...apology accepted.

[NeilZ]

This is huge. Day 1 for both.

[NeilZ]

Originally Posted by MifuneFan

Expected Kino to have these, like most other major MGM titles from Criterion (and other labels). I'm surprised they're being sold separately though.

Better that way. Not everyone likes Killers Kiss and I think if it were bundled would be another high cost release like Touch of Evil.