Crave: "Five reasons you shouldn't buy a Blu-ray player yet"

[NutsAboutPS3]

The solution to all the problems the article states, is to buy a PS3 as your Blu-ray player. Until there are profile 2.0 standalone players on the market with full support for bitstreaming and decoding all audio formats, I agree, I wouldn't buy any Blu-ray player other than a PS3.

But this is not a problem for the Blu-ray format. The PS3 is not expensive, is a great Blu-ray player, and you get the gaming aspect essentially thrown in for free! It is also a design icon and looks fantastic if you have a TV with a matching gloss black finish, and a black glass TV stand.

[camper]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

But again. Do you think the person that is doomed because he can't burn a CD and can't find someone to help him have a fully wired houise with ethernet going behind the TV and know, when setting up the player, the IP addresses and what ever else he needs to get it working?

Oh yes, he can definitely have someone wire his house for the internet and install network jacks, setup his equipment, and all of that jazz. For a price, and for the average consumer that price might not be worth paying.

The problem is you're looking at it through your eyes and not willing to see from anyone else's. Not everyone has someone at their beck and call, willing or ABLE to help setup anything computer (or network) related. They have to pay for that sort of support, and for someone who wants HDM, the prospect of spending hundreds of dollars to wire a home just to make sure they can watch a movie, is not usually top priorty.

Your budget is $5,000 and that's it. You're TV is 3k, speakers, receiver and Blu Ray player comes to 1.5k. 500 for equipment installation, but now you have add on another 600 to network your living room, including the router and/or switch. So what do you give up so you don't break your budget? Oh yeah, and how much is it going to cost you for repairs if something goes down?

Not to mention, are you willing to have your walls cut into, or are you willing to do that? When you own a home, these things become important. Every room in my house except the kitchen, dining, and bathrooms are wired with 1000Base-T. My house is setup for it, I've been doing IT for 15 years and I can see how the common user is going to have an issue with firmware updates.

And since most homes are networked via WIRELESS, and no BD player (except the PS3 with an adapter) can hook in other than hard-wire, you've added another bit of complexity.

It is a joke to make a big deal about FW updates and how complicated they are when at the same time whining that not every player is 2.0 There is a lot more involved with having a working network connection on a player then what is involved with FW upgrades.

No, it's not a joke. And no, it really isn't complicated if you have experience doing it or are comfortable giving it a shot. And yes, there is a LOT more that goes into a home network than calling Verizon or Comcast and having them install their DSL/Cable Modem service and a cheap $100 linksys router for you (with admin admin STILL being the username and password to it since most people don't have a clue how to change it, let alone how to get into it) and plugging in a network cable like the 3 step pictograph shows.

But the fact remains, that for someone who is not tech savvy it sounds complicated. There are a vast multitude of people who bough VCR's, enjoyed them, wore them out, but never set it to record on a timer because it was too complicated for them.

Now you want them to suck it up and download their firmware (if they can find it on the cumbersome manufacturer's sites), burn the firmware to CD on their PC, load it onto their player, and then upgrade?

Early adopters expect, and are willing to do this. They're early adopters. J6P does not want to BE an early adopter. They want it to 'just work'. Nobody wants to put in a Blu Ray movie they just bought for $30 at Best Buy, read a little note that says they might have to upgrade firmware, and then not be able to watch said film until they do so.

My hope is they get it straightened out ot the point where firmware updates are EXTREMELY rare and don't impact the playing of the actual movie. Meaning, that they might (only on the rarest of occasions) be required for special content and that's it.

~Camper

[Doc_Stew]

Originally Posted by camper

My hope is they get it straightened out ot the point where firmware updates are EXTREMELY rare and don't impact the playing of the actual movie. Meaning, that they might (only on the rarest of occasions) be required for special content and that's it.

Agreed. And I don't really see that happening until EVERY BD player is 2.0 compliant. Since we're still in the early stages, it's very likely down the road that'll happen. People will then go "remember when I had that 1.0 BD player that couldn't play that Fox title without a firmware update?" Hopefully all these hiccups will be a think of the past, and we can all enjoy a polished HDM.

[Wreck]

Originally Posted by reiella

Well they do mention what those features are for #1. "I think the answer is a big "no." In other words, if you're among the vast majority who only wants to watch the movie, you're not really gaining anything with a 1.1. or 2.0 player. " Which is accurate. Look into those features and decide if they're worth it to you. If they are, freaking wait or get a PS3.

#2 is funny and almost goes without saying : "Rule of thumb: if HDTV programming looks noticeably better than DVD playback on your TV, then Blu-ray will be a worthwhile investment. "

I really have to wonder what HDTV programming doesn't look noticably better than DVD playback... Course, the caveat of 'versus upscaled DVD' would prolly have been a better point to look at.

#4 and #5 are standard boilerplate reasons not to get into a new format, and are really fair.

I am so not impressed with my HDTV progamming, its horrible, but I have no choice at the APT im at... Brighthouse cable, boo! Never heard of it till I moved here.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

so all these masses that have no way of applying a simple FW upgrade all have fully wired homes and can configure the equipment so they can connect the player in the LR to the internet. So much soi that just offering 1.0 or 1.1 players is enough reason for them not to buy BD.

You really need to think outside the box (and by 'the box', I mean your way of seeing things and understanding things). You really seem stuck in your own little world where you, the other people here on this forum, and maybe other personal friends of yours who have Blu-Ray all know how to deal with firmware updates.

For one thing, there's a really good portion of the masses who probably aren't even familiar with the concept of a firmware update/upgrade, let alone what they need to do to get one to occur. If they buy a Blu-Ray player and buy a movie and it doesn't work in the player, many will think there is something wrong with the player.

Also, even for those who understand (or come to understand) the concept, they may not have internet running to their living rooms to do these updates with. Many people often keep their computers in some kind of office/den/spare bedroom and therefore have the internet running to that room. Having to now route a wire or whatever to the living room can be a pain.

Buring a disc can still be confusing for some, despite how common it is today. Plus, it's not fool proof. Actually I, and some others who have this same player, had an issue burning a firmware disc for my Samsung BD-P1200 player right down to the letter, only to have it 'brick' the machine, and we followed the instructions given by Samsung. And I am more than familiar with how to properly burn discs.

Then there's the issue with firmware even being available in a timely manner (again, refering to that same Samsung player). If people buy a movie, they want to be able to sit down and watch it... period. They don't want to have to pay to have special new wires running to their living room just to do it.

Originally Posted by Anthony P

But what ever format that will unfortunately never be true. The issue is not the players but what you want. The minute you say HDi or BD-J (the fox title you mentioned was not a BD+ issue) you are talking a multi functional device, just like any PC. And just like any PC (or PC equipment) you will need updates for ever, because simply put the guy that created the device a few months ago (or years ago) cannot know what the content creator will want in a few days, weeks, months or years. It has nothing to do with BD, it is asking a device to evolve with the demand.

The problem with the Fox BD+ issue is that the discs wouldn't even play in most (if not all) players without a firmware update. It's one thing for their to be an optional firmware update that may allow you to access newer special features, or use a new better kind of audio output, but if the disc would still play the movie fine with whatever existing kind of audio is already available, then that would be good enough for the average consumer.

But when the inclusion of newer features or whatever on a disc inhibits basic movie playback on many players and thus requires firmware just to re-establish the ability for that very basic function, that's not going to go over well with the general public, and it's absurd to think that it will.

I think a relatively finalized Blu-Ray profile... one that at least allows movies to play without further firmware updates is not impossible and at minimum should ultimately be required if they want people to embrace the format.

Originally Posted by Anthony P

why do you think they are there? it is precisely to drive people away. It is knowsn as FUD read all about it. It is spread by people with a bias against something (like this author) These are not issues with BD, they are garbage created by the authors to slow down BD adoption.

FUD is the spreading of lies and misinformation. But pointing out inconveniences and frustrating aspects that genuinely do exist in a piece of technology is not FUD. Just because it says something negative about the format which may make some people choose not to jump onboard doesn't make it FUD. It's simply warning people about a genuine problem that they will likely run into and be frustrated with if they do buy the format. I really can't argue with someone letting people know about the genuine downsides of a piece of technology, regardless of how much I may personally want that technology to thrive and go mainstream.

This statement of yours is solid proof of what a blind Blu-Ray fanboy you are. You are pretty much saying that anyone who says anything negative about Blu-Ray in any respect is spreading FUD, which is pure Bull S*** on your part. Not letting people know about the downside, and only telling them the good things and omitting the bad in an effort to trick them into buying the format without knowing the problems they may likely run into and find VERY annoying in an effort to force the format into wider adoption IS spreading FUD for your own personal agenda. And in doing so, you are no better than the people who were spreading lies to try and get more people to jump on board with HD-DVD.

Originally Posted by Ascended_Saiyan

Exactly!


Firmware discs can be mailed to individuals in need of a update. I still have an old standalone DVD player from 1997. I can't play certain DVDs and there is no such thing as DTS as far as that player is concerned. This is the normal process of a new format. That's all to it.

Okay, you have a player from 1997, the first year DVD was out. While annoying, I can see there being issues with that. I bought my first player in May of 1998 (and it was a display model that was being sold, so it wasn't even the newest player at that point). This player is still working, and actually my mom and step dad have it, and he buys and watches a lot of movies (and I used it quite a bit, too prior to giving it to them). To date, there have not been any issues with this player being able to play any store-bought DVD disc.

Granted, it doesn't have all of the most updated audio outputs, or progessive scan, and it does have some issues playing burned discs and it doesn't have MP3 or Jpeg functionality. BUT, for it's primary intended purpose... a DVD player, which plays store-bought (and rented) DVDs, it has always worked fine. And for some people, that's good enough, and that's all we're expecting Blu-Ray to do for the masses is play the movies. Later players and future firmware may offer more options, and I have no problem with options. But when firmare is required just for newer discs to even play the movie at all, that's a huge issue.

The DVD player I am refering to was bought in May of 1998. The format first came out in early 1997. So we are talking about less than a year and a half for a player to be made that to this day still plays all DVD discs as far as I can tell. Blu-Ray has been out for over a year and a half now, and we are still having these kinds of issues. So Blu-Ray has NOT straightened it's act out as quickly as DVD did back then.


As for having firmware discs mailed to people... while that's an option that is about as fool proof as it gets, again, the problem is that people need to understand what firmware is and that this is what's causing their disc not to play, THEN they have to wait for this firmware disc to show up. Many people will buy a movie, and then want to go home and watch the same day or at least very soon in the days that follow. They aren't going to want to wait around for a couple of weeks for a disc to show up (assuming the firmware is even yet available).

I really don't understand how you guys think this is all some kind of non-issue.

[PA_Kid]

LOL!

That article reads like HD-DVD-pro writer meets Blu-ray-pro editor.

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by Sonar5

No, the MAJORITY ARE NOT

Probably NONE are.

Obsolete means something can no longer be used effectively for the purpose it was designed for.

If a player continues to play Blu-ray movies, how is it obsolete?

Gary

[Anthony P]

Oh yes, he can definitely have someone wire his house for the internet and install network jacks, setup his equipment, and all of that jazz. For a price, and for the average consumer that price might not be worth paying.

Obviously, but would someone that paid to get his house wired and his equipment set up not know who to call when he needs a FW upgrade?

The problem is you're looking at it through your eyes and not willing to see from anyone else's. Not everyone has someone at their beck and call, willing or ABLE to help setup anything computer (or network) related. They have to pay for that sort of support, and for someone who wants HDM, the prospect of spending hundreds of dollars to wire a home just to make sure they can watch a movie, is not usually top priorty

You missed my point. If you look at my other posts you will see that I think this whole "internet features" are just pure BS that most people won't use because most people won't have it set-up. I agree with you most people don't care enough and it costs too much to do it right (think of all the places you can use or have a movie player now).

But the fact remains, that for someone who is not tech savvy it sounds complicated. There are a vast multitude of people who bough VCR's, enjoyed them, wore them out, but never set it to record on a timer because it was too complicated for them.

agree, we all would love that they don't exist. But again, if you want fancy menus and DL then it is par of the course. Do you update your PC? There is a reason MS (and many other companies) added regular or automatic updates. You need it. It is not like there are that many either. What I am pointing out is that the author (nor the people that agree with it) had issues with all the FW updates for their HD DVD player. The author even portrayed it as a positive for HD DVD. This article is nothing more then the normal HD DVD fanboy HD DVD is dead so now let's kill BD. It is all about FUD.

[Anthony P]

You really need to think outside the box

and you need to think and stop making excuses for your bad decisions.

For one thing, there's a really good portion of the masses who probably aren't even familiar with the concept of a firmware update/upgrade, let alone what they need to do to get one to occur. If they buy a Blu-Ray player and buy a movie and it doesn't work in the player, many will think there is something wrong with the player.

what market, many things need a FW upgrade once in a while and some are much more complicated or need special stuff.

Also, even for those who understand (or come to understand) the concept, they may not have internet running to their living rooms to do these updates with. Many people often keep their computers in some kind of office/den/spare bedroom and therefore have the internet running to that room. Having to now route a wire or whatever to the living room can be a pain.

agree, now can you explain me how and why that person needs a 2.0 player? Get my point? Why it is ironic that every player must be 2.0 but FW is too hard.

Then there's the issue with firmware even being available in a timely manner (again, refering to that same Samsung player). If people buy a movie, they want to be able to sit down and watch it... period. They don't want to have to pay to have special new wires running to their living room just to do it.

agree, but again, the issue is not the FW but studios pushing the envelope and trying things they have not tried before. If someone does not try something new and fancy Then obviously there would not be a FW issue. The problem is that asking for fancy stuff and then *****ing about FW is stupid. If someone thinks stick with the movies and drop the fancy stuff, or I want fancy stuff and and FW upgrades are a small price to pay then they both would make sense, but saying these fancy features are important so don’t buy a none fancy player and then ***** about FW is just nuts. And the reason he is doing it and guys like you like it is just because of the anti-BD sentiment and anything to tell someone not to buy BD.

The problem with the Fox BD+ issue is that the discs wouldn't even play in most (if not all) players without a firmware update. It's one thing for their to be an optional firmware update that may allow you to access newer special features, or use a new better kind of audio output, but if the disc would still play the movie fine with whatever existing kind of audio is already available, then that would be good enough for the average consumer.

Not at all, it played in most players and it was not a BD+ issue. As for playing some parts and not others, that does not make sense. The reason it does not work, is because the player does not handle something properly. That is why a FW is needed. The studio can’t know if a player can handle everything properly. And it can’t know what will and what won’t. I studio coulkd add no fancy features and just use HDMV, but they can’t do fancy and none fancy at the same time. The issue is that (just by your quote) you don;’t understand the first thing how anything work, while at the same time you assume you know what you are talking about.

FUD is the spreading of lies and misinformation. But pointing out inconveniences and frustrating aspects that genuinely do exist in a piece of technology is not FUD. Just because it says something negative about the format which may make some people choose not to jump onboard doesn't make it FUD. It's simply warning people about a genuine problem that they will likely run into and be frustrated with if they do buy the format. I really can't argue with someone letting people know about the genuine downsides of a piece of technology, regardless of how much I may personally want that technology to thrive and go mainstream.

Exaggerating minor inconveniences is lies and misinformation. It is FUD because that whole article was written for one and only one reason to try and scare off potential blu-ray buyers. FUD stands for [b]Fear, Uncertainty ,Doubt[/u]

Are you honestly saying that the article was not about instilling those three things in someone thinking of buying BD in order for them not buy it? Even the title points it out “Five reasons you shouldn't buy a Blu-ray player yet” it is all about fear (FW might be too complicated), uncertainty (I might want a 2.0 maybe I should wait), doubt (do I need it? My TV might be too small)…

The DVD player I am refering to was bought in May of 1998. The format first came out in early 1997. So we are talking about less than a year and a half for a player to be made that to this day still plays all DVD discs as far as I can tell. Blu-Ray has been out for over a year and a half now, and we are still having these kinds of issues. So Blu-Ray has NOT straightened it's act out as quickly as DVD did back then.

so are you saying your BD player can’t play BD’s? he said his DVD player could not play newer DVDs.

I really don't understand how you guys think this is all some kind of non-issue.

no one is saying it is a none issue (or that you daon’t need FW). It is an issue. The issue is people want fancier content (that is why he is saying don’t buy 1.0 or 1.1, isn’t it?), studios want to try it out, and as they add and make stuff that is more complicated and different what ends up happening is that there are incompatibilities. You have an HD DVD player, all of them have needed FW upgrades, did you think that no one should have bought them because they needed them?

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

and you need to think and stop making excuses for your bad decisions.

What bad decisions? We are talking about firmware issues here, and I have no control over the need for firmware in Blu-Ray players... how have I made a bad decision in that regard?

I assume that this comment is in regards to the debate from the Amazon thread over the suggestions I've put forth about what people who've alraedy bought into the format should do to keep their HD-DVD collections going. If that's the case, then (1) we should just agree to disagree on it, as it just keeps resulting in us flinging insults back and forth at each other, and that's not beneficial to the interests of this forum. I have both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD, I bought both since I knew at least one would die out. It could be argued that I made a partial bad decision, but in also buying the winning format I made a partial good decision. Buying into either format was a gamble, so I took the safest route in buying both, that way I at least end up with the winning format. You say buying anything else HD-DVD related is a waste, and I say that for people who area already vested in it there is value in taking steps to back up their collection. What is waste to one person has value to another. There's no 100% right or 100% wrong answer, it's all in what the value is perceived as to the individual, and neither person is 'stupid' for chooosing what works for them. I don't find it to be a big deal for me personally at this point, esspecially considering that I have well over a dozen video gaming systems from over the years, all of which are still working, many of which are long out of production, some of which had shorter life spans than others, and many games for which I bought when the respective system was on it's last legs in the retail market, therefore would be forced to resort to the secondary market when/if the need ever arrises to replace the system because it stops working. I don't see HD-DVD as being much different from my personal standpoint. You don't agree, that's fine.. you do what works for you, and I'll do what works for me... let's leave it at that. If you feel the need to discuss this further, then let's go with my second point (2) which is to keep any further discussion of this issue in the thread it originated in.

We can disagree with each other, but let's try and keep it more respectable than it has been to this point. This is just a debate on technology, not a life and death struggle. We are all human beings here, and let's treat each other as such.

what market, many things need a FW upgrade once in a while and some are much more complicated or need special stuff.

Generally speaking, I find that most things that often need firmware upgrades are usually things that would logically be connected to the internet anyway. I.e. computers and/or computer components, ipods, PDAs, etc, so it's not as big of a deal. Prior to Hi-Def media, for the most part the idea of hooking up a stand-alone movie player to get new firmware was almost unheard of.

agree, now can you explain me how and why that person needs a 2.0 player? Get my point? Why it is ironic that every player must be 2.0 but FW is too hard.

People don't 'need' a 2.0 player if they have no intention of utilizing the features that go with it. My only point is that if people (for whom firmware upgrades will challenging and/or confusing) buy a 1.0 or 1.1 player, and then 2.0 discs come out and (presumably) won't play in the older players at all without first updating the firmware, then that's where the problem arrises.

I agree that many of the extras that 1.1 and 2.0 offer will either not be used at all, or not very often, by most people (myself included). I just simply want players to get to a point where they can play *ALL* Blu-Ray discs (past, present, and future) without having to ongoingly update the system.

agree, but again, the issue is not the FW but studios pushing the envelope and trying things they have not tried before. If someone does not try something new and fancy Then obviously there would not be a FW issue. The problem is that asking for fancy stuff and then *****ing about FW is stupid. If someone thinks stick with the movies and drop the fancy stuff, or I want fancy stuff and and FW upgrades are a small price to pay then they both would make sense, but saying these fancy features are important so don’t buy a none fancy player and then ***** about FW is just nuts. And the reason he is doing it and guys like you like it is just because of the anti-BD sentiment and anything to tell someone not to buy BD.

Honestly, I personally would be fine if the PIP and internet featured didn't exist. I probably won't use them much. Since they will be there regardless, I may check them out at some point, but I can live without them. I never said I really wanted them or that they are necessary (as you seem to be implying here). My bottom line point is simply getting the Blu-Ray format to a point where it's as relatively simple as possible to use for the general, non-tech savy public as possible. I'm not here trying to spread anti-BD sentiment. Quite the opposite actually. But I will criticize the format for issues that arrise.


Let me put this into perspective here. I'll give you a real life example that I personally experienced not that long ago. My mom was in a store, looking at a Blu-Ray set up on an HDTV and was really impressed with it. She and my step dad are still a long ways off from ever getting an HDTV and BD player, but she really appreciated the quality of it and is interesting in getting something like it down the road. She was talking with me about it since she knew I already had a BD player and she was saying how great the quality was, and I agreed with here and was telling her all of the great things about the format. I never brought up anything negative about it. Then, I brought my player over to their house to upgrade the firmware (due to my lack of Hi Speed internet currently... which I am planning on changing in the near future). And she asked what I was doing, and I explained to her (in a very matter of fact, non negative way) that I was updating the machine to play newer discs, and SHE responded very negatively "You mean you have to update the machines just to play newer discs?" I told her that it depends on the disc and if it has something new on it that requires the new firmware to be used, but otherwise yes. And she was just totally turned off by it saying "That's inconvenient". I told her that in time this should be less of an issue and the best thing to do is wait for a while (which they weren't going to spend money on something like this in the near future anyway).

I wasn't even trying to sway her away from the format, but when given the facts, in a very matter of fact, honest way, it was a turn off. This is how much of the public will receive this.

Not at all, it played in most players and it was not a BD+ issue. As for playing some parts and not others, that does not make sense. The reason it does not work, is because the player does not handle something properly. That is why a FW is needed. The studio can’t know if a player can handle everything properly. And it can’t know what will and what won’t. I studio coulkd add no fancy features and just use HDMV, but they can’t do fancy and none fancy at the same time. The issue is that (just by your quote) you don;’t understand the first thing how anything work, while at the same time you assume you know what you are talking about.

I understand some aspects. I admit my knowledge of how exactly some things work on a very, very technical level isn't as great as some other people around here.

I do understand that the reason the firmware is needed is because the player doen't handle something properly. Which is why I'd like the discs and the 'things' that need to be handled to become standardized ASAP to avoid these future issues. We have studios blaming the hardware manufacturers for not making players that will handle these features, and we have hardware manufacturers blaming the studios/disc makers for adding in new kinds of features that current players aren't set up to handle, and the end result is complication for the consumer. If they would all just work together to get the format to a realitve standard, then these problems would be eliminated.

Exaggerating minor inconveniences is lies and misinformation. It is FUD because that whole article was written for one and only one reason to try and scare off potential blu-ray buyers. FUD stands for [b]Fear, Uncertainty ,Doubt[/u]

Are you honestly saying that the article was not about instilling those three things in someone thinking of buying BD in order for them not buy it? Even the title points it out “Five reasons you shouldn't buy a Blu-ray player yet” it is all about fear (FW might be too complicated), uncertainty (I might want a 2.0 maybe I should wait), doubt (do I need it? My TV might be too small)…

I don't even 100% agree with the article, esspecially the point about the sizes of TV screens since I know many people with smaller screens who enjoy the quailty that Blu-Ray offers.

Having said that, the problem here is that FUD (in the true meaning of the term, which up until recently I was somewhat misunderstanding) is somewhat subjective. While very blatant exagerations can sometimes be obvious, other times was seems exagerated to one person can seem not exagerated at all to another.

My point is that technology is a very complicated thing. With many technologies, esspecially newer ones (and Blu-Ray is still pretty new) there are positive aspects as well as negative ones. And I don't see how giving people knowledge of the negatives instantly equals a bad thing. And not just with Blu-Ray, but with ANY technology (or product in general).

While I was misusing the word FUD recently (thinking it refered to lies and misinformation, rather than just exageration), it seems like many people here do use it and associate it with the same things I (mistakenly) was. And I can see where lies and misleading info can be a problem. And I can see where extreme exageration of problems can be an issue.

But sometimes giving people the negatives is a good thing to just being well informed. I can see where there are problems with it, but there are benefits as well. What may seem like exageration to one person will seem reasonable to another. I can't argue the firmware point that this guy makes. And while not everyone will utilize the specific 2.0 feautres, assuming that 2.0 is indeed the final profile of Blu-Ray, it would make sense for the not-so-tech-savy to wait for those players to come out since (hopefully) they won't require more firmware for future discs to play.

It's not like the article is telling people to stay far away from Blu-Ray permanently. It's just telling them to wait it out or get a PS3. Despite my disagreement with some aspects of it, I can't completely blast this article away for what is at least partially sound advice for the general public.

Even putting this specific article to the side, the problem around here is that when anyone tries to bring up a negative point about Blu-Ray, even in the most non-exagerated, matter-of-fact, honest way, everyone else starts sceaming "FUD" and blasting the person for it. It's ridiculous to some extent. It's like everyone has to say "Blu-Ray is perfect just the way it is" to be accepted around here.

While over exaggerating problems can be bad, over stating the positives and igoring the negatives to get people to accept the format is just as bad as FUD, IMO. Just because I want Blu-Ray to be a successful format doesn't mean I'm going to mislead people into buying it by omitting certain aspects of the format that they should know about before buying, even if that knowledge makes them choose not to go with it. In doing so, I would be no better than retailer workers who are currently trying to push HD-DVD players on the unsuspecting public without letting them know that it's essentially dead technology.

so are you saying your BD player can’t play BD’s? he said his DVD player could not play newer DVDs.

I am saying that my BD player couldn't play some BDs without a firmware upgrade. This seems to be true of most (if not all) BD players that have come out to date, even though the format has been around for over a year and a half and has had a few generations of players.

My first DVD player, which I purchased when DVD was still younger than Blu-Ray is now, and which was already a somewhat older model at the time since it was a display model that was being sold that wasn't going to be restocked, still plays all DVDs that have ever been put into it.

His DVD player not playing newer DVDs is kind of like Blu-Ray players not playing all BDs out of the box. Whie the firmware upgrade option is nice compared to the alternative of having no way of making the player compatible at all, it apparently took less time into the life of the format to make DVD essentially fully compatible with all discs of it's respective region coding. In that sense, Blu-Ray hasn't quite been straightened out to the same degree that DVD was by this point in it's existence.

no one is saying it is a none issue (or that you daon’t need FW). It is an issue. The issue is people want fancier content (that is why he is saying don’t buy 1.0 or 1.1, isn’t it?), studios want to try it out, and as they add and make stuff that is more complicated and different what ends up happening is that there are incompatibilities. You have an HD DVD player, all of them have needed FW upgrades, did you think that no one should have bought them because they needed them?

In regards to your HD-DVD question, if by 'no-one' you mean the non-tech-savy general public, then my answer is that they shouldn't buy that format either (and at this point, they shouldn't buy it at all since it's basically dead).

But while HD-DVD did have it's own required firmware issues here and there, they weren't as prevelant as with Blu-Ray. Don't get me wrong, Blu-Ray has many advantages over HD-DVD, this just wasn't one of them. I actually wrote a more elaborate opinion on this specific issue in the Amazon thread. I won't bother repeating it here, but if you want to know more on my thoughts on this, go check that thread out.

I understand why the incompatibilities happen. I just would like this 'fancier stuff' to get figured out and finalized ASAP to prevent further issues. Adding new things is great and all, but not when it's inconveniencing the majority to offer new features that only a handful will likely be interested in.

[Anthony P]

People don't 'need' a 2.0 player if they have no intention of utilizing the features that go with it. My only point is that if people (for whom firmware upgrades will challenging and/or confusing) buy a 1.0 or 1.1 player, and then 2.0 discs come out and (presumably) won't play in the older players at all without first updating the firmware, then that's where the problem arrises.

disks that use 2.0 or 1.1 features are out and they do play on 1.0, 1.1 and 2.0 players. This is much easier to manage because these features are well defined (i.e. yes or no) and the disk needs to be built for it (everyone knows there are 1.0 players)

the issue is that the same open system that wanted/require those features also has similar demands in other stuff. When (for instance) Fox decided to add a game in Speed or Disney in CL, that game is created and has requirements on the machine. These requirements are all supposed to be available but the CE builder might not have thought that they would be used in that way. These games don’t need 2.0 or 1.1 but they do have requirements on the player that might not be met. Now these two did not have issues because the players could handle what came to them. The issue happens when you do something that the player can’t handle as is. And that is why FW fixes it because the manufacturer changes the code to handle the situation.

If everyone agreed and only wanted the movie then there would not be FW issues. Movies are very well defined (video specs, audio specs, complete BW…) and so there would not be issue. But when someone says you should buy a 2.0 player or studios say “let’s see if people will find adding a game, adding an animated menu…. Interesting to people” and then people react to it you go from something simple like “just watching the movie to something complex. And that complexity is what creates the issue.

I am saying that my BD player couldn't play some BDs without a firmware upgrade. This seems to be true of most (if not all) BD players that have come out to date, even though the format has been around for over a year and a half and has had a few generations of players.

but what you say is not true. Most did not need a FW to play and there have not been many generations of players. There have not been a few generations of players. I think Samsung is starting the third one but the rest on the market are at best 2G. And if you have a 3G Samsung that would put you at buying a BD player either this year or last quarter. Which makes your whole ramblings how you picked both formats pretty funny.

My first DVD player, which I purchased when DVD was still younger than Blu-Ray is now, and which was already a somewhat older model at the time since it was a display model that was being sold that wasn't going to be restocked, still plays all DVDs that have ever been put into it.

so you lucked out with the DVD player you bought. But let’s face it, you said that it played movies well enough, but it can not handle many other stuff that most DVD players can. The difference is that DVD players had no reason to have issues before the movie there was nothing there but a very simple menu. How hard is it for you to understand that some of the BD movies you buy are not that simple? You won’t have an issue with a BDMV BD, you won’t have an issue with some BD-J BDs but you might (and anyone one might) have an issue with some BD-J titles that are pushing the envelope in a direction the manufacturer did no foresee.

I understand why the incompatibilities happen. I just would like this 'fancier stuff' to get figured out and finalized ASAP to prevent further issues. Adding new things is great and all, but not when it's inconveniencing the majority to offer new features that only a handful will likely be interested in.

no you don’t understand. Let me ask you this, you talk about the DVD player you bought in 98, do you still have and use the PC you had then? No? why? Did it have an OS? Did it have SW that could do what you do today on it (write documents , send mail, surf the web…)or play games on it? Why did you need a bigger and better PC? Because you want to use the newer more bloated OS, you want to use the newer browser and word processor, you want to play the newer games all of which are much more demanding and your old PC is no more good enough. It won’t be the exact same thing BD has limits on what someone can expect a player to do. But the reality is that everyone (public not any one person individually) are asking for more. More can never be well defined and will always have the potential of issues.

[Yeha-Noha]

It makes sense to consider the pros and cons before buying, especially when it's an evolving technology.

I've read over and over in this forum that many who went Blu-ray found that the PQ wasn't that much better than a DVD. I have often wondered when reading such posts what size HDTVs they have.

Agreed, if you have a 37" or smaller HDTV, BDs probably won't look that much better to make it worth it. Once you get a large screen, like I did, up scaled DVDs do look fuzzy and there's no turning back.

[camper]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

You missed my point. If you look at my other posts you will see that I think this whole "internet features" are just pure BS that most people won't use because most people won't have it set-up. I agree with you most people don't care enough and it costs too much to do it right (think of all the places you can use or have a movie player now).

I agree that the internet features & PiP are things most people won't use, but the problem is that you can buy a 1.0 player today, get it home, and it may require a firmware update just to play the disc. That's the problem I'm talking about, and that's the biggest obstacle for the average consumer to overcome.

Firmware needs to addressed the faster the better, and discs need to be authored in such a way that basic playback will not require an update. Nobody should have to wait until Friday to watch a movie they bought on Tuesday because the manufacturer (hardware or otherwise) are behind or ahead of some curve.

What I am pointing out is that the author (nor the people that agree with it) had issues with all the FW updates for their HD DVD player. The author even portrayed it as a positive for HD DVD. This article is nothing more then the normal HD DVD fanboy HD DVD is dead so now let's kill BD. It is all about FUD.

I did miss your point about the author pointing out HD-DVD having the 'win' here, and you're right - that screams FUD. They require updates to firmware as well, and the combo discs are a huge drawback due to their problems (not to mention asthetics - I like an image on a disc) with playback.

But there are decent points brought up that anyone should be made aware of during the purchasing process, and firmware being the biggest (if not only) item worthy of any legitamate concern.

~Camper

[Anthony P]

Firmware needs to addressed the faster the better, and discs need to be authored in such a way that basic playback will not require an update. Nobody should have to wait until Friday to watch a movie they bought on Tuesday because the manufacturer (hardware or otherwise) are behind or ahead of some curve.

agree.