Turntables worth it?

[zoon_ii]

Originally Posted by richteer

Bull. A decent LP system will beat a decent CD system any day of the week.



WIth all respect, please get a clue about this stuff! For starters, it's a stylus, not a needle. Yes, there will always be some friction, but that has got nothing to do organic sound (whatever that is). And nicks and pops are symptoms of records that have been abused, not a fault with the technology per se.



I disagree about the sound quality statements, but apart from that, the above is pretty spot on. What turntables/arms/cartridges do you have? That might explain your sound quality opinion.

no need to be a dick about pointing out that I'm not using the correct vocabulary associated with turntables, but you go ahead and do what you need to do to inflate your ego a little more.

As far as turntables, they're not the audiophile's elite kind that one might pay thousands for, but they're good enough. Technics 1200 M3K's. I have a Ortofon Concorde nightclub cartridges (I get that right?) which are attached to S-shaped tone arms.

Have a good day sir.

[Brandon B]

Originally Posted by richteer

WTF are you on about?

Or are you asserting that playing a record damages it in some way?

If playing a record damages it (playing it over an dover again back to back notwithstanding), the stylus is either buggered, or the turntable's set up is very off (certainly, using a too light tracking force can damage records).

Right. Clearly your objectivity on the subject is intact and unassailable. As are your manners.

BB

[richteer]

Originally Posted by zoon_ii

no need to be a dick about pointing out that I'm not using the correct vocabulary associated with turntables, but you go ahead and do what you need to do to inflate your ego a little more.

As far as turntables, they're not the audiophile's elite kind that one might pay thousands for, but they're good enough. Technics 1200 M3K's. I have a Ortofon Concorde nightclub cartridges (I get that right?) which are attached to S-shaped tone arms.

Have a good day sir.

I wasn't trying to be a dick--just educate you and other readers about the correct terminology.

As for your gear, the Technics are the DJ's spinner of choice, but you're correct in saying that they're not the audiophile kind (and also explain your perception that records always get damaged when playing). And yes, cartridge is the correct word! :-)

[Polic]

Originally Posted by richteer

I wasn't trying to be a dick--just educate you and other readers about the correct terminology.

As for your gear, the Technics are the DJ's spinner of choice, but you're correct in saying that they're not the audiophile kind (and also explain your perception that records always get damaged when playing). And yes, cartridge is the correct word! :-)

1) mk2's are were it's at.

2) Damage to records from turntables comes from inproper tone arm set up. You don't need the needles to track as deep for just listening to music in your home. If you're having trouble you might want to adjust your tone arms properly.

and just because I'm a dick. A Cartridge is just the unit the "needle" or "stylus" is attached to. You don't need to change a cart just because you snapped a needle.

[richteer]

Originally Posted by Polic

2) Damage to records from turntables comes from inproper tone arm set up. You don't need the needles to track as deep for just listening to music in your home. If you're having trouble you might want to adjust your tone arms properly.

Agreed; poor tone arm set up is a way to damage records while playing them. Another way would be using a damaged stylus.

and just because I'm a dick. A Cartridge is just the unit the "needle" or "stylus" is attached to. You don't need to change a cart just because you snapped a needle.

That only applies to MM cartridges. If you snap the cantelever of an MC cartridge, it's pretty much a write off and you need to buy a new one (because MC cartridges don't have user-replaceable styli).

[hanser]

Originally Posted by richteer

I'm gonna have to disagree with you here: LPs do sound better than CDs, even if you use a high quality DAC.

CDs are do NOT represent a more accurate representation of the original sound. Sound is analog, so you'd need VERY high sample and word sizes to accurately capture it.

Vinyl does not sugarcoat the sound of a recording. Listening to a well-recorded record on a high end system will demonstrate this more than adequately.

Yes, I know, on a good system vinyl can somtimes sound subjectively better than CD. I have listened to them. But it does not reproduces the original as accurate as a CD with a high quality DAC. With the latter you get according to Nyquist theorem a perfect, identical reproduction of the analogue sound curve up to 20 kHz. Anybody who says "sound is analogue, not digital" does not understand Nyquist. Any digital sound below the Nyquist frequency can be converted to analogue without any loss, if the DAC is up to the task and not introducing errors.

Higher Word sizes just lower the already low digital noise floor further, higher sampling frequencies extend the Frequency range, which can be accurately reproduced, up to more than 20 KhZ. If this has any influence on the audible sound, is debatable.

[hanser]

Originally Posted by richteer

Yes, there will always be some friction, but that has got nothing to do organic sound (whatever that is).

Friction leads to harmonic distortion which colores the vinyl sound. This is the sound, vinyl lover prefer.

[hanser]

Originally Posted by Beta Man

Vinyl is still the prefered media by the vast majority of audiophiles for a reason.....

I would like to see THAT statistics!

I would call myself an audiophile. My preferred mediums are SA-CD and DVD-Audio which subtly improve the sound on CD without introducing distortions or other artefacts coloring the sound.

[Johnny Vinyl]

Debating the merits of a format preference is a good exercise, but one that leads nowhere as opposing viewpoints have their merits as well.

I know what my ears like......the sound of vinyl!

I'm not saying it is better and it certainly has its drawbacks, but after a session of cueing up various LP's over the course of a few hours, I feel completely satisfied and enriched by the experience. And that is not just from taking the time to truly sit and listen. It also has to do with the interactivity between myself, my vinyl and my system. To some this may seem as a chore. To me it is part of the experience. The vinyl LP format is also the only format I listen to when I want to truly listen, relax and enjoy.

I like CD's for their compactness and portability (imagine cueing up an LP in your car?). But the sound of most CD's leave me feeling somewhat cold and indifferent. As such, I use CD's more as a format for background listening. I do not find it to be as immersive as vinyl.

SACD or DVD-Audio is an area that I have yet to truly explore. However, when bringing in my turntable for a re-allignment and maintenace check, I was able to listen to Pink Floyd's "Dark Side Of The Moon" on SACD. And I must say I was impressed. I understand that my PS3 - 60GB can play SACD, but I'm not yet willing to invest in yet another format. But I'm keeping on open mind and I may yet dive in after a few more positive listening tests.

The bottom line is this. Regardless of your preference, you need to ensure that you handle your media with kit-gloves and that you maintain your equipment. And in no time you'll find yourself gravitating to better equipment and spending Saturday mornings browsing record stores, flea markets and garage sales for that one-in-a-million out-of-print album (in the format of your choice)!

Enjoy the music! (BTW....for better quality media look to imports from Europe, Japan and Korea, regardless of format)

[Croweyes1121]

To simply and concisely answer your actual question. YES. Get a turntable. You will effing love it, man. Seriously. Trust me on this.

And how did I know that this thread would almost instantly become a debate of sound quality of vinyl vs CD vs SACD vs DAC vs...oh, what the hell ever. The point is, vinyl is awesome and sounds great. If you're interested in turntables, you already have your own answer. There are also MANY things you can ONLY get on vinyl, which in and of itself is one of the biggest selling points if you ask me.

[richteer]

Originally Posted by hanser

Yes, I know, on a good system vinyl can somtimes sound subjectively better than CD. I have listened to them. But it does not reproduces the original as accurate as a CD with a high quality DAC. With the latter you get according to Nyquist theorem a perfect, identical reproduction of the analogue sound curve up to 20 kHz. Anybody who says "sound is analogue, not digital" does not understand Nyquist. Any digital sound below the Nyquist frequency can be converted to analogue without any loss, if the DAC is up to the task and not introducing errors.

Higher Word sizes just lower the already low digital noise floor further, higher sampling frequencies extend the Frequency range, which can be accurately reproduced, up to more than 20 KhZ. If this has any influence on the audible sound, is debatable.

Nyquist's Theorem is fine for simple sine waves; unfortunately, music is not made up of simple sine waves! The need to accurately reproduce the complex harmonics that make up a music signal is where proponents of Nyquist fall down. Many years ago, I too drank the Nyquist cool aid, believing that CD must be superior to vinyl (despite how bright it sounded). It wasn't until I listened to a well set up turntable (not the cheap crap I had been used to up to that point in time) that I realised the error of my ways. Fortunately, I hadn't desposed of all my records...

I've heard several high end CD/DAC set ups, and have never found them as satisfying as analogue. Would a top of the line Esoteric transport/DAC/clock set up be satisying? I don't know (I haven't heard it); but for that kind of cash, I'd rather improve the rest of my system.

[richteer]

Originally Posted by hanser

Friction leads to harmonic distortion which colores the vinyl sound. This is the sound, vinyl lover prefer.

That's the first time I've heard that theory... (And I like to think I'm fairly well read when it comes to audio matters, though I'm no audio physicist.)

[DJeffries]

Originally Posted by richteer

Nyquist's Theorem is fine for simple sine waves; unfortunately, music is not made up of simple sine waves! The need to accurately reproduce the complex harmonics that make up a music signal is where proponents of Nyquist fall down..

Actually Nyquist works for any band limited signal such as music. Any band limited signal can be digitized and exacly recreated (given good enough A/D and D/A conversion) providing you adhere to the Nyguist-Shannon criteria which CD does. Also all signals no matter how complex they may appear on a scope (music signals included) can be represented by adding simple sine waves together. Hanser is 100% correct in his assessment of CD vs vinyl accuracy.

Music as well as anything else you hear is band limited as the cochlea (the anatomy in your ear that converts pressure waves to electrical signals) only responds to pressure waves from about 20Hz to 20KHz effectively filtering the signal. It then sends frequency and amplitute information to the brain in a discrete fashion, it is not a continuous device. Therefore you have the same range of filtering happening inside your ear that is applied in anti-alias and reconstruction filters for digital sound. So the harmonics above 20KHz and thier effects at lower frequencies never make it to the brain anyway.

[crackinhedz]

So the harmonics above 20KHz and thier effects at lower frequencies never make it to the brain anyway.

...but if they ever do, you would notice the blood streaming from the ears.

[BPHusker]

Anyone know about the Audio Technica AT-PL120? I was thinking about buying that one.

[richteer]

Originally Posted by DJeffries

Actually Nyquist works for any band limited signal such as music. Any band limited signal can be digitized and exacly recreated (given good enough A/D and D/A conversion) providing you adhere to the Nyguist-Shannon criteria which CD does. Also all signals no matter how complex they may appear on a scope (music signals included) can be represented by adding simple sine waves together. Hanser is 100% correct in his assessment of CD vs vinyl accuracy.

That's a little disingenious, because a square wave can be created by using an infinite amount of sine waves, and certain instruments (wood winds, IIRC) have a sound wave shape that approximates a square wave.

If Red Book CD is (theoretically) so good, why does SACD sound better?

[Gremal]

Regarding the fact that frequencies greater than 20 kHz are present in music...yes, these are technically inaudible to human ears, but there is evidence that the way those ultrasonic waves interact with the audible frequencies *is* audible or at least cues the ear into the notion that it's hearing "real music". Therefore, it becomes important to try to reproduce the ultrasonic waves if they're present in music.

See here for an excellent paper on the subject.
http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~boyk/spectra/spectra.htm

Originally Posted by richteer

That's the first time I've heard that theory... (And I like to think I'm fairly well read when it comes to audio matters, though I'm no audio physicist.)

I've heard the theory (vinyl aficionados like the distortion) a few times, and it's a similar misconception about why tube aficionados prefer tube amps. Vinyl has a holistic quality that is preferable, although it becomes less an issue with each advance of digital formats.

[DJeffries]

Originally Posted by Gremal

See here for an excellent paper on the subject.
http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~boyk/spectra/spectra.htm

Gremal,

If you get a chance check out the book "Digital Audio Explained" by Nika Aldrich. The book does a good job of explaining the techology in plain talk and he touches on the some of the studies mentioned in the Caltech article you linked to.

[crackinhedz]

Originally Posted by DJeffries

If you get a chance check out the book "Digital Audio Explained" by Nika Aldrich.

you can catch Nika and others blowing the minds of many with their vast audio intellect, here.

[nigsy116]

I don't know or profess to know about the technical audio stuff of vinyl vs CD vs SACD etc, but I know this:

On vinyl my Faces, Stones and Zep LP's sound fantastic, no expensive system will convince me otherwise, but..

St Anger by Metallica, on CD, full volume