The Irony: Or how MS is going to use BD to give a swift kick to Apple

[krazeyeyez]

Originally Posted by Luis_A51

Ask Sega how important it is to be "first" with a new console.

lmao way off topic, but there was alot of factors that happened at that time that lead to that failure, and the dreamcast since i assume thats what your referring to is still one of the best made, innovative, and fun gaming platforms to ever come out that had a great selection of games made for everyone.

[bhampton]

I love my DreamCast.

And... I stopped buying M$ products years ago... never again.

-Brian

[Bobby Henderson]

Originally Posted by marzetta7

Or, in reality Apple is working on Snow Leopard, a full 64-bit OS that is implementing Cocoa as its main API, which is the real reason for numerous delays not only in their own internal applications, but also with other 3rd party applications, specifically CS4 from Adobe which uses legacy Carbon code.

Well, Snow Leopard isn't available now. A 64-bit version of Photoshop on the Mac isn't available either. It will probably be sometime in 2010 before we'll see "PhotoshopCS5" and the next chance for a 64-bit version for the Mac.

Originally Posted by Aygie

Why? Cause Macs dont have BD support? I can't see anything else its lacking. Are you trying to say that Apple's going down the pan because of this?

The issue of no BD support is yet another factor that will drive more creative workers to Windows-based machines.

Applications are really what drive any platform, not the OS itself or brand of computer on which the OS is running. Businesses only care about getting work done. A long time ago, any business doing any sort of creative work needed a fleet of Mac desktops. Now there are no more "killer apps" exclusive to the Mac platform. Some highly regarded applications, such as the new version of Photoshop, run better on Windows (the PC version has 32-bit & 64-bit code builds while the Mac version is only 32-bit).

Final Cut Studio has been one of the few items over the last several years that successfully drove home the point that a Mac is still a better choice for creative work. Now with Adobe Production Studio besting FCP in high definition work, Apple is losing that marketing advantage.

[Flea77]

We can all speculate on why Apple did what they did and what the impact of that may or may not be. What I know is this:

Years ago I was the president of the local Mac users group and ran a BBS with Mac support. There were at least three macs in my house, two in my office. My wife, who works at a video production company had macs all over the office.

Fast forward to today. I have no macs in my office, I am surrounded by three Vista machines instead. This includes my video editing station. My wife's office now has been reduced to one legacy mac.

I should also mention that the office I am talking about for me is in my home so I can use whatever I want. My wife is a VP at her company so she can use whatever she wants. Neither of us see any compelling reasons to use macs any more. Take that for what it is worth.

Allan

[TheAzureKnight007]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

why should I ask Sega?
why don't you tell us?

also explain how the PS2 which came out before the xbox sold much better and the Wii and PS3 that came out after the 360 are also selling better.

ps3 and wii were new systems. And the 360 is outselling the ps3 in Japan. Has been for weeks now.

And they're basically even in Europe and I think the 360 may be ahead of the ps3 in America in terms of sales.

So your argument for the Wii works. The ps3 not so much...

I hope Apple supports Bluray in the future but I don't think they're missing out on anything huge right now.

[Luis_A51]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

why should I ask Sega?
why don't you tell us?

also explain how the PS2 which came out before the xbox sold much better and the Wii and PS3 that came out after the 360 are also selling better.

The Dreamcast and the Saturn were both out first in their generation, an both got slaughtered by the Playstation brand. The 360 was first this gen, and its well on its way to 3rd overall. MS has resources Sega obviously didnt have, but rushing a system is usually bad for business.

The ps2 was after the dreamcast. The original xbox was late to its generation, that doesnt mean the ps2 was "rushed". An easy reason why the xbox came last that gen has to do with the fact that initially, it had no established franchises.

[Luis_A51]

Originally Posted by TheAzureKnight007

ps3 and wii were new systems. And the 360 is outselling the ps3 in Japan. Has been for weeks now.

And they're basically even in Europe and I think the 360 may be ahead of the ps3 in America in terms of sales.

So your argument for the Wii works. The ps3 not so much...

I hope Apple supports Bluray in the future but I don't think they're missing out on anything huge right now.

The PS3 has a greater install base in Europe and Asia. The fact that the 360 had better sales numbers for a few weeks in Japan doesnt change that. FF13 and WKC also both come out on PS3 this christmas, and you can bet that will have a HUGE effect on Japanese sales. Also theres a thread on this site that talks about how Ubisoft, EA, Namco Bandai, and Konami have had significantly better sales on software on the ps3 than on the 360, even despite the 360's install base advantage. Also for Japanese sales, people need to realise sony announced some really nice bundles months ago, and people have been waiting until they come out (which is exactly why company's always deny price cuts until they are right about to happen)

The point of Apple using bluray isnt necessarily about the average user (although its obvious many people are holding off on a new mac because of the lack of bluray) but about users that use their mac for graphics applications. The ability to use bluray is just a tool that mac users wont have, and it might lead some people to switch over to PCs, which would be another blow to apple considering they used to dominate these appications.

[fighthefutureofhd]

actually the dreamcast wasn't out first. the nintendo 64 and playstation one was out first. saturn tanked big time. and it was a good 4 years before the dreamcast came out. the thing to take home here is that sega took too long to put a new system out. they weren't first. they were first with the genesis and they cornered the market then. but after that they got their butts handed to them.

[aygie]

The issue of no BD support is yet another factor that will drive more creative workers to Windows-based machines.

I half agree with you, i don't think people will start swapping to another platform for BD support, not yet. A years time maybe. The demand just isn't there yet, semi professionals are still with DVD and will be until BD has picked up mass steam (which after this holiday season could be the time)

Applications are really what drive any platform, not the OS itself or brand of computer on which the OS is running.

I disagree, OSX is the one of the main factors driving Apples computers. No drivers, plug and play etc etc has been one of Apples selling points for a long time and thats why people love Macs.

Businesses only care about getting work done. A long time ago, any business doing any sort of creative work needed a fleet of Mac desktops. Now there are no more "killer apps" exclusive to the Mac platform. Some highly regarded applications, such as the new version of Photoshop, run better on Windows (the PC version has 32-bit & 64-bit code builds while the Mac version is only 32-bit).

I don't know about "no killer apps" (Logic Pro, Colour, Motion come to mind) but the whole Photoshop debacle is frustrating and unnecessary. But don't blame Apple for this blame Adobe.

Final Cut Studio has been one of the few items over the last several years that successfully drove home the point that a Mac is still a better choice for creative work. Now with Adobe Production Studio besting FCP in high definition work, Apple is losing that marketing advantage.

But this is my point, the only program in the Master collection that has anything more than FCP Studio is the Blu-ray support. Thats Encore VS DVD Studio Pro not Master collection VS FCP Studio. So your telling me because the MC has one more feature its "besting" the other?

This is what i was saying earlier, why use Premiere Pro over Final Cut Pro (or vice versa)? Neither have or need BD support. Yes use Encore over DVD SP if BD is what you need but FCP handles all HD video.

[Bobby Henderson]

Originally Posted by Aygie

I half agree with you, i don't think people will start swapping to another platform for BD support, not yet. A years time maybe.

Apple didn't wait around for DVD burners to get cheap before jumping into the DVD authoring game. They acquired Final Cut from Macromedia in the late 1990s and then transformed it into the best mainstream video editing suite we've seen this decade. Apple did much to pioneer that market. They didn't wait around for others to grow the market and then jump in afterward. But it seems like Apple is satisfied with doing just that when it comes to authoring high definition video to optical disc.

Originally Posted by Aygie

I disagree, OSX is the one of the main factors driving Apples computers. No drivers, plug and play etc etc has been one of Apples selling points for a long time and thats why people love Macs.

It's a selling point for casual and novice home computer users. Unfortunately, most home computers being sold are still Windows-based PCs because of an even bigger factor: price. Businesses also buy mostly using price as a factor. When they can run a vital application on a less expensive PC they're probably going to choose a PC. Hardware variety is another big selling point. You can order high end systems from various companies like Alienware, Boxxtech, etc. or you can build your own machine with exactly the hardware you want.

BTW, lots of devices that run on PCs don't have any drivers either.

Originally Posted by Aygie

I don't know about "no killer apps" (Logic Pro, Colour, Motion come to mind) but the whole Photoshop debacle is frustrating and unnecessary. But don't blame Apple for this blame Adobe.

Apple could leverage its own branded Final Cut suite by improving it and ensuring long time users stick with it. If customers start jumping to Adobe they're also going to be free to choose whatever hardware they want if they need to buy a new computer to run that application suite. With Final Cut Studio being exclusive to the Mac platform its one key thing to keep customers on Mac hardware.

Pro Tools is the industry leading professional audio editing application. Apple Motion isn't superior to or more popular than Adobe After Effects. AE also has its own built in color grading system, not to mention a large library of after market plug ins. For professional level work, Autodesk has a bunch of tools and turnkey systems for high end color grading and finishing.

Originally Posted by Aygie

But this is my point, the only program in the Master collection that has anything more than FCP Studio is the Blu-ray support. Thats Encore VS DVD Studio Pro not Master collection VS FCP Studio. So your telling me because the MC has one more feature its "besting" the other?

Adobe Production Studio Premium includes these best of breed applications: Adobe Photoshop Extended, Adobe Illustrator, Adobe Flash Professional, Adobe After Effects Professional. Add the BD-capable Encore to that. You already know what Premiere Pro and Soundbooth do.

Many of those programs work together via "Dynamic Link" so you don't have to do final renders jumping between applications to work on footage, menu designs, etc. That's a major reason to use Premiere Pro & After Effects with Encore for BD authoring designs. It can save a huge amount of time, especially when it comes to making changes. Using FCP, you have to finish everything completely before you can go to Encore.

I don't know if the direct-to-disc OnLocation program is still PC-only. Overall, the suite is a very impressive package. You'll pay more buying Photoshop and After Effects by themselves than buying the full version of the Production Studio Suite.

[Luis_A51]

Originally Posted by fighthefutureofhd

actually the dreamcast wasn't out first. the nintendo 64 and playstation one was out first. saturn tanked big time. and it was a good 4 years before the dreamcast came out. the thing to take home here is that sega took too long to put a new system out. they weren't first. they were first with the genesis and they cornered the market then. but after that they got their butts handed to them.

Dreamcast was first in the PS2/gamecube/xbox generation. Saturn beat the PS1 in that generation. I have no idea why you thought dreamcast was in the same gen as ps1/n64.

[fighthefutureofhd]

oh ok. well, if time proves anything the dreamcast was and still is the best out of all of those systems it's aligned with. i think the dreamcast and sega could've gone on to beat the playstation and really walloped the rest of the competition.

[Anthony P]

ps3 and wii were new systems. And the 360 is outselling the ps3 in Japan. Has been for weeks now.

And they're basically even in Europe and I think the 360 may be ahead of the ps3 in America in terms of sales.

So your argument for the Wii works. The ps3 not so much...

my point was that first, second,..., last does not matter and it is other factors that make the difference. So if you want to assume the 360 is selling better then the PS3 then it just supports the point just as much, it will even support it more after all the PS3 and Wii came out at the same time and the 360 a year earlier.

[Anthony P]

I half agree with you, i don't think people will start swapping to another platform for BD support, not yet. A years time maybe. The demand just isn't there yet, semi professionals are still with DVD and will be until BD has picked up mass steam (which after this holiday season could be the time)

any change in policy will need time to implement, BD might not be main stream now but it is big enough that for someone looking at releasing movies they need to start looking at it. The issue is that if Apple waits until BD has 50% of the market (or more) then it is way too late. BD is already at 10% and growing fast and because studios can charge more profits are even bigger then what 10% would signify. The other issue is that if someone wants to produce BDs (even if we assume the numbers are still small) Apple just locked the door on them and they would most likely be leaving to PC and even if Apple adds BD in 6 months these people are most likely not going to dump their new PC and switch back to Apple.

[MacLover]

You do realise that Fast Mac's Blu-Ray Drive (Or any drive for that matter) will work on a Mac along with Adobe's program right? So what if I can't watch films but at least I can author.

[Elandyll]

Originally Posted by MacLover

You do realise that Fast Mac's Blu-Ray Drive (Or any drive for that matter) will work on a Mac along with Adobe's program right? So what if I can't watch films but at least I can author.

Except that if you are on a Mac, you'll want to edit with FCP, but you'll need Encore to Author.

erm ... DOH! ?

Not counting the fact that you won't have a software playback option for that authored disc to test it in a computer environement (outside of encore), and will need a PC nearby to do that (and please don't tell me I can have a bootcamp .. please ... just don't ).

DOH! #2 ?

Neither cases are fatal for HD authoring/workflow on Mac, obviously. It just seems very -very- dumb for FCP and DVD Studio Pro fans (which I am).

[Bobby Henderson]

Most video authoring projects go through at least a few revisions before they are output to disc. This is a critical reason why I think it is vital for Apple to incorporate BD authoring into DVD Studio Pro ASAP.

If you use Adobe Production Studio and utilize Dynamic Link for adding, removing and modifying assets in a project you don't have to do a final render until everything is done. You can make a change to a certain item and it will update wherever it is referenced -be it in a Premiere Pro layout, an After Effects scene or menu items in Encore.

It's going to be at least a little inconvenient to put together a HD project in Final Cut Studio and have to render everything before taking it into Encore. It's an even bigger pain to go back and make changes and risk having the progress made in Encore get blown out of the water.

[MacLover]

Originally Posted by Elandyll

Except that if you are on a Mac, you'll want to edit with FCP, but you'll need Encore to Author.

erm ... DOH! ?

Not counting the fact that you won't have a software playback option for that authored disc to test it in a computer environement (outside of encore), and will need a PC nearby to do that (and please don't tell me I can have a bootcamp .. please ... just don't ).

DOH! #2 ?

Neither cases are fatal for HD authoring/workflow on Mac, obviously. It just seems very -very- dumb for FCP and DVD Studio Pro fans (which I am).

So what do the work in FCP then author in Encore I see no problem there.

[Chevypower]

MAC: Hello, I'm a Mac
PC: and, I'm a PC
MAC: What are you doing PC?
PC: Burning on to my Blu-ray Drive?
PC: What are you doing Mac?
MAC: Spending all my money on advertizing, and the rest on spending $100,000 on fighting Prop 8, and not staying neutral.
PC: That's not going to fix the Blu-ray issue is it?
MAC: No, let's put it all on advertizing then!

OK i am a Mac fan, but hurry up and BD-ize the computers!

[rubberghost]

i'm an Apple fan, but S.J. needs a swift kick.