Invasion of the Body Snatchers 4K UHD (1978)

[samlop10]

Originally Posted by NLScavenger

It's been a while since I've used MadVR, but iirc all the highlight recovery strengths have some degree of artifacting such as ringing. I can imagine that ‘are you nuts?’ has the most artifacting of all the options.

Ringing? I think you’re getting confused the ringing with the other settings like upscaling ones and such that do produce ringing. I’ve never seen anywhere anyone say that highlight recovery causes ringing. And the settings within MadVR also tell you the tradeoffs when you pick them, and ringing definitely isn’t there when I pick that highlight recovery setting. Plus it wouldn’t really make sense for the tone mapping to produce ringing. Tone mapping manipulates the gradations to pull more highlight detail, not more fine detail which could produce ringing.

[samlop10]

Originally Posted by duggie walker

I mean....okay? But here's the thing: When I'm watching that scene in motion, as the director intended, my eye goes to the guy on the street. It doesn't stop on the street surface. You're actually forcing yourself to focus on peripherals, rather than going with the natural cognitive flow of the piece.

So I have to say, I don't really look at that screenshot and freak out. Could it be encoded better? Sure. But I'm fairly confident it's not going to bother me when I watch it.

Good for you I guess ?

Point still stands though: what’s the point of this 4K disc when it doesn’t actually produce an upgrade in picture?

And if these artifacts don’t distract you then you’re practically not even noticing the upgrades which the disc is supposed to provide over the standard blu-ray anyway. Which then leads to.. why are you then getting the disc if you seemingly can’t even tell what’s an upgrade from standard blu-ray to 4K and/or don’t really care about PQ and only focus on the story/movie? I mean that’s the whole point of getting films in the 4K disc format, the upgrade in picture quality.

It’s baffling you guys (not just you) keep trying to defend this with ‘well I only care about the movie itself. You complain too much.’ Then why are you buying the 4K disc if you only care the movie itself and the blu-ray is already good? And also, why are you on blu-ray.com where the technical quality of the discs is basically what gets discussed the most?

And this attitude of ‘don’t complain, just enjoy it’ is bs. If I’m going to pay for a product that’s supposed to look better, at a premium price nonetheless, then I expect it to look premium and better than what became before. You guys are the reason these companies keep releasing crappy discs. Because they’re a business, if they keep making money releasing half-a**ed jobs then they have no reason to fix anything; and they know you will just about buy anything so they’ll keep releasing these discs with egregious errors and they’ll keep making money. It’s ridiculous and nonsensical that you guys keep defending this disc.

[NLScavenger]

Originally Posted by samlop10

Ringing? I think you’re getting confused the ringing with the other settings like upscaling ones and such that do produce ringing. I’ve never seen anywhere anyone say that highlight recovery causes ringing. And the settings within MadVR also tell you the tradeoffs when you pick them, and ringing definitely isn’t there when I pick that highlight recovery setting. Plus it wouldn’t really make sense for the tone mapping to produce ringing. Tone mapping manipulates the gradations to pull more highlight detail, not more fine detail which could produce ringing.

Highlight recovery strength applies sharpening to certain frequencies, so ringing is something that could occur.

Batman v Superman (example taken from this thread)
highlight recovery strength: none
highlight recovery strength: medium

[samlop10]

Originally Posted by NLScavenger

Highlight recovery strength applies sharpening to certain frequencies, so ringing is something that could occur.

Even if that’s true (can you show me where it says that it does that?), the compression errors here are chroma noise and bad grain handling. I very much doubt tone mapping would cause that.

Plus, again, for like the third time, I also checked it out on my TV with completely different hardware than my PC and those compression errors are still there. So it’s definitely not my PC and/or MadVR producing those errors. They're there in the disc due to the (bad) encode.

[strumdogg]

Originally Posted by Cereal At Midnight

Just want to go on record (hopefully less awkwardly?) that I think the disc looks great and I think the screenshots do NOT tell the story of the film in motion. Film grain when captured in a still frame can be misleading. I agree with this site's review that it's a must-buy for fans of the movie. This brave new world of having every release pulled apart one still-frame at a time and every line of a review questioned and put through the wringer continually surprises me. Invasion of the Body Snatchers has never looked so good.

I never doubted your opinion. As someone who has no opinion (haven't watched my copy yet), it's crazy to me seeing the vastly different opinions. I'm hoping it comes to a difference of A/V setups.

Perhaps I was being a bit cheeky, and perhaps I should shut my mouth until I watch the damn disc (and compare to SF).

Thanks Heath!

[Kyle15]

Originally Posted by duggie walker

I mean....okay? But here's the thing: When I'm watching that scene in motion, as the director intended, my eye goes to the guy on the street. It doesn't stop on the street surface. You're actually forcing yourself to focus on peripherals, rather than going with the natural cognitive flow of the piece.

This sounds like something a politician would say about the world's myriad social crises.

[Kyle15]

Originally Posted by samlop10

It’s baffling you guys (not just you) keep trying to defend this with ‘well I only care about the movie itself. You complain too much.’ Then why are you buying the 4K disc if you only care the movie itself and the blu-ray is already good? And also, why are you on blu-ray.com where the technical quality of the discs is basically what gets discussed the most?

And this attitude of ‘don’t complain, just enjoy it’ is bs. If I’m going to pay for a product that’s supposed to look better, at a premium price nonetheless, then I expect it to look premium and better than what became before. You guys are the reason these companies keep releasing crappy discs. Because they’re a business, if they keep making money releasing half-a**ed jobs then they have no reason to fix anything; and they know you will just about buy anything so they’ll keep releasing these discs with egregious errors and they’ll keep making money. It’s ridiculous and nonsensical that you guys keep defending this disc.

COUGH makes me think of this COUGH

[samlop10]

Originally Posted by NLScavenger

Highlight recovery strength applies sharpening to certain frequencies, so ringing is something that could occur.

Batman v Superman (example taken from this thread)
highlight recovery strength: none
highlight recovery strength: medium

I don't see any ringing in those caps . It definitely pulls out more grain but that is part of the source and the tone mapping only makes it less clipped. But even the explanation does not say it can produce ringing artifacts.

I do see this:

The effect is similar to applying image sharpening to certain frequencies with the potential to give the image an unwanted sharpened appearance at higher strengths.

But that is referring to when you apply sharpening, using it as a simile to compare it to highlight recovery. Sharpening of high-frequency detail can definitely cause ringing artifacts. But this is dealing with highlights and tone mapping, which does not try to artificially sharpen high-frequency detail. It pulls more detail for displays that have low brightness, but it does not (as far as I know) try to create more detail that isn't already there; it simply separates the already-existing highlights more to reveal detail that is already there and which gets clipped due to the display's brightness limitations. I think you're just getting lost in the comparison. And then it says this too:

The lone reason not to enable highlight recover strength would be for performance reasons. It is very resource-intensive. Otherwise, this setting adds a lot of detail and sharpness to compressed highlights, particularly on displays with a low peak brightness. I would recommend starting with a base value of medium, which does not oversharpen the highlights and leaves room for those who want even higher strengths with even more detail recovery.

Plus again, I do not see any ringing in those example caps.

Regardless, it is beside the point. I still see those compression errors outside my PC/MadVR setup so they're definitely there in the (bad) encode in the disc.

[duggie walker]

Originally Posted by samlop10

Good for you I guess ?

Point still stands though: what’s the point of this 4K disc when it doesn’t actually produce an upgrade in picture?

And if these artifacts don’t distract you then you’re practically not even noticing the upgrades which the disc is supposed to provide over the standard blu-ray anyway. Which then leads to.. why are you then getting the disc if you seemingly can’t even tell what’s an upgrade from standard blu-ray to 4K and/or don’t really care about PQ and only focus on the story/movie? I mean that’s the whole point of getting films in the 4K disc format, the upgrade in picture quality.

It’s baffling you guys (not just you) keep trying to defend this with ‘well I only care about the movie itself. You complain too much.’ Then why are you buying the 4K disc if you only care the movie itself and the blu-ray is already good? And also, why are you on blu-ray.com where the technical quality of the discs is basically what gets discussed the most?

And this attitude of ‘don’t complain, just enjoy it’ is bs. If I’m going to pay for a product that’s supposed to look better, at a premium price nonetheless, then I expect it to look premium and better than what became before. You guys are the reason these companies keep releasing crappy discs. Because they’re a business, if they keep making money releasing half-a**ed jobs then they have no reason to fix anything; and they know you will just about buy anything so they’ll keep releasing these discs with egregious errors and they’ll keep making money. It’s ridiculous and nonsensical that you guys keep defending this disc.

No you see that sounds righteous enough but it really isn't. Firstly because you're not really representing my views and secondly, because it suggests that all flaws have equal gravity and they don't.

I am not uncritical of all releases. I've been collecting them since the VHS era and have thousands of them. I've seen some really egregious problems and been very disappointed (and vocally so) about them. Wrong OAR's, excessive sharpening and DNR, glitches, cuts, drop-outs, all manner of f-ups. Simply put, what you're pointing out there may be a flaw but it doesn't make it into my 100-worst f-ups list.

For some time now, I have simply asked of any new version: Is it at least an incremental upgrade on what I already have? And if I deem it to be so, I buy it. Call it a poverty of ambition, if you wish, or simply a realistic outlook; but I'm self-aware enough to know that part of my pleasure in this hobby is continuous consumption. Every time I get a new upgrade, it provides the impetus for me to rewatch a favourite movie. Without that new upgrade, there's no guarantee I would.

So sure, I want every disc to be perfect. But what's the strategy here? Are we all going to unionise in solidarity around Kino's encodes and as a block boycott not only this disc but ALL their discs until they address the issue? Hey. I'm on board if everyone else is. But I don't see that happening and we don't have any leverage other than that; except to make our feelings known and hope it has some impact.

Now maybe you think my stance is undermining that. Fair enough. But I resent the notion that I have to be AS angry as you are about everything you're angry about. And I also resent being made to feel like some kind of moron/shill if I say I don't see the same problems in every instance.

This isn't a situation like MAD MAX 2, where the company advertised an audio track that wasn't there. We can all agree that's unacceptable and Warner accepted that. There are certainly instances where Kino dismisses concerns wrongly and I've pushed back on that. But this is sub-par encoding, largely ameliorated by DV, and if that were grounds for recall, I have literally hundreds of discs here that fit that bill. And frankly, right now, I'm happy to have a 4K disc that my ludicrously over-sensitive Oppo 203 will play to the end without freezing or skipping. The generally low-quality of disc manufacture seems to me a far more pressing problem.

Believe me, I wish FIM worked on every single disc. We can only hope that encoding generally improves over the next few years and, on past experience, there is reason to believe it will.

[duggie walker]

Originally Posted by Kyle15

This sounds like something a politician would say about the world's myriad social crises.

And therein lies the problem: Because you actually think those are equivalent, don't you?

[BerryTheMusicMan]

HEY TOO ALL ANYONE WHO HATE'S THIS DISC !
I'll buy it from you for the right price if it's in mint condition with slipcover .
PM me your best offer and I will take this life shattering travesty of 4K heresy out of your life !

[Kyle15]

Originally Posted by duggie walker

And therein lies the problem: Because you actually think those are equivalent, don't you?

Oh absolutely, of course I do. Totally a grounded analogy without any exaggeration. You got me there. Did not see this one coming. You deserve a treat.

[dvining]

Originally Posted by BerryTheMusicMan

HEY TOO ALL ANYONE WHO HATE'S THIS DISC !
I'll buy it from you for the right price if it's in mint condition with slipcover .
PM me your best offer and I will take this life shattering travesty of 4K heresy out of your life !

It's part of the current Kino sale now, including slipcover.

[duggie walker]

Originally Posted by Kyle15

Oh absolutely, of course I do. Totally a grounded analogy without any exaggeration. You got me there. Did not see this one coming. You deserve a treat.

I'll let the People decide.

[BerryTheMusicMan]

Originally Posted by dvining

It's part of the current Kino sale now, including slipcover.

I know but with all hate for it on here they might as well sell it cheaper and remove the trauma from their life

[Kyle15]

Originally Posted by duggie walker

I'll let the People decide.

Voting for you next go around.

[samlop10]

Originally Posted by duggie walker

No you see that sounds righteous enough but it really isn't. Firstly because you're not really representing my views and secondly, because it suggests that all flaws have equal gravity and they don't.

I am not uncritical of all releases. I've been collecting them since the VHS era and have thousands of them. I've seen some really egregious problems and been very disappointed (and vocally so) about them. Wrong OAR's, excessive sharpening and DNR, glitches, cuts, drop-outs, all manner of f-ups. Simply put, what you're pointing out there may be a flaw but it doesn't make it into my 100-worst f-ups list.

It's your money. If you're happy with the disc then you do you. And that screenshot I posted, which you quoted, was a single of many, many, many frames that have those errors, even in Dolby Vision. So even if the focus of the shot is not on the chroma errors, there are plenty others where your eyes will be focused on objects that do have them. But if you think it's an upgrade, then again, go ahead, it's your money. I think the standard blu-ray looks better because it handles the compression better with more consistent grain and without those ugly green blobs due to the chroma errors.

For some time now, I have simply asked of any new version: Is it at least an incremental upgrade on what I already have? And if I deem it to be so, I buy it. Call it a poverty of ambition, if you wish, or simply a realistic outlook; but I'm self-aware enough to know that part of my pleasure in this hobby is continuous consumption. Every time I get a new upgrade, it provides the impetus for me to rewatch a favourite movie. Without that new upgrade, there's no guarantee I would.

Some people are definitely more aware of these compression errors than others. The fact you are saying you don't seem to mind the errors in the encode do not translate to everyone being in the same boat, nor buying just for the sake of buying like you seem to be saying you do because it entices you to revisit films. So I do not get what the point of this discussion is. If you are happy with the disc, go ahead, enjoy it. But it is clear the disc has errors, and this is a forum where those technical qualities are discussed, so why would we, the ones that care about said quality, be okay with this and not discuss it?

So sure, I want every disc to be perfect. But what's the strategy here? Are we all going to unionise in solidarity around Kino's encodes and as a block boycott not only this disc but ALL their discs until they address the issue? Hey. I'm on board if everyone else is. But I don't see that happening and we don't have any leverage other than that; except to make our feelings known and hope it has some impact.

Well, not with that attitude lol. If you just keep saying 'oh it's not worth it to try' then you're part of the problem and not the solution. Hey, definitely first world problems. But if everyone thinks like you do then it perpetuates this cycle of companies releasing bad products because everyone thinks like that.

Now maybe you think my stance is undermining that. Fair enough. But I resent the notion that I have to be AS angry as you are about everything you're angry about. And I also resent being made to feel like some kind of moron/shill if I say I don't see the same problems in every instance.

Lol, you don't have to be angry about anything. That is silly. Again, if you're happy with this disc, despite all the evidence shown and described, then that is a personal decision. But the fact is we are showing/telling you those problems and you seem to keep thinking it looks better than the standard blu-ray. I do not see how that makes any sense, but again, you do you.

This isn't a situation like MAD MAX 2, where the company advertised an audio track that wasn't there. We can all agree that's unacceptable and Warner accepted that. There are certainly instances where Kino dismisses concerns wrongly and I've pushed back on that. But this is sub-par encoding, largely ameliorated by DV, and if that were grounds for recall, I have literally hundreds of discs here that fit that bill. And frankly, right now, I'm happy to have a 4K disc that my ludicrously over-sensitive Oppo 203 will play to the end without freezing or skipping. The generally low-quality of disc manufacture seems to me a far more pressing problem.

Except that it not largely ameliorated by DV. The chroma errors are still very much there even in DV. And even then, HDR10 is the standard, not DV, and not everyone can play DV. So the issue would still very much stand even if the disc actually looked better in DV (which it does not anyway). And you act like these companies are doing you a favor. Like they're doing you a favor by making you spend money on a subpar product just because it plays 'without freezing or skipping'; nonsense .

Believe me, I wish FIM worked on every single disc. We can only hope that encoding generally improves over the next few years and, on past experience, there is reason to believe it will.

Yeah FiM are definitely not the only company that can do good encodes. Whoever Criterion has been using for their 4K discs has been doing some pretty decent encodes. Sony, I believe, does their own encodes in-house also and 99% of their discs look great. So a good encode is not some magical thing that only FiM can conjure up. The issue is some people just don't do their job properly and companies have no incentive to fix them because most people seemingly have this attitude of 'well I'm just one person so what difference will that make?' and/or see the issues as shown/explained here but keep turning a blind eye and buy it anyway despite the fact the standard blu-ray looks better and is cheaper. It makes no sense whatsoever. But again, it's your money and your decision.

It's funny how we have to keep revisiting the point/purpose of these forums lol. And that people complain because we are discussing those things which these forums were created for in the first place.

[Kyle15]

Originally Posted by samlop10

Yeah FiM are definitely not the only company that can do good encodes. Whoever Criterion has been using for their 4K discs has been doing some pretty decent encodes.

That'd be Radius60/Pixelogic, known for their inconsistent and sloppy work on Criterion's regular releases. I find it really amusing they can get their 4k stuff on the money, which of course is a good thing.

[samlop10]

Originally Posted by Kyle15

That'd be Radius60/Pixelogic, known for their inconsistent and sloppy work on Criterion's regular releases. I find it really amusing they can get their 4k stuff on the money, which of course is a good thing.

Yeah, funny how their standard blu-rays can look pretty bad to mediocre but their 4Ks are, as far as I've seen, pretty good.

[Gacivory]

Everyones riding the Criterion train. I guess I'm alone in waiting to see them stumble once and see people turn.