The Dark Knight Rises (2012)

[mlittle3]

The film isn't perfect. I still prefer the second movie. Having said that, Dark Knight Rises is the second best film in a masterful trilogy. Most of the criticism about realism or logic can also be applied at its predecessor. I think what happened was a lot of people went into this filmexpecting a very specific movie, they thought this would be Dark Knight 2.0. Instead you got a slow burn, revolutionary epic told in a kind of heightened reality. No crowd pleaser. I thought what Nolan did was very brave. I suspect that some of the more angry nerd rage comes from Avengers/comic book fanboys who love high camp and absolute fidelity to the source material. If I wanted that, I would just stick to the comics. Let's be honest, a lot of that comic book fetishism looks terrible onscreen. What works on the page doesn't always translate well to film.

[SethRex]

I take the ending as Bruce lives, and the scene at the restaurant is Bruce finally giving Alfred what he'd wished for during the first 7 years of his disappearance all those years ago.

[Steve Lilley]

This is kind of tangential, and I wasn't going to do it, but then I thought: screw it. It's not like by not posting this I'll be any less on an Internet message board. It's pretty clear that none of us have anything better to do

Originally Posted by mlittle3

I think what happened was a lot of people went into this filmexpecting a very specific movie, they thought this would be Dark Knight 2.0. Instead you got a slow burn, revolutionary epic told in a kind of heightened reality. No crowd pleaser.

I learned a long, long time ago not to do that. The only thing that happens when you go in expecting *anything* is disappointment. Anyone who saw THE PHANTOM MENACE in a theater can tell you that. More recently, I'd been watching a fifth SUPERMAN movie in my head for 18 years, and let me tell you - SUPERMAN RETURNS wasn't it. I went in expecting a combination of my ideal movie and X2, and what I got was kind of a Superman version of STAR TREK: THE MOTION PICTURE. And once I looked at it for what it was instead of what it wasn't, I actually enjoy it quite a bit.

Also: I think the best American movie of the last 25 years is Paul Thomas Anderson's THERE WILL BE BLOOD, so I'm definitely not someone who requires a crowd pleaser.

I suspect that some of the more angry nerd rage comes from Avengers/comic book fanboys who love high camp

I do like THE AVENGERS a great deal more than THE DARK KNIGHT RISES, but they're kind of trying to do two different things within one genre.

and absolute fidelity to the source material. If I wanted that, I would just stick to the comics.

This is the absolute last thing I want. When you strictly adhere to the source material you get lifeless, emotionless movies like WATCHMEN.

Let's be honest, a lot of that comic book fetishism looks terrible onscreen. What works on the page doesn't always translate well to film.

I'm in 100% agreement. An experiment for everyone who thinks that literal adaptations are the way to go:

Rewatch your favorite comic book movie. It doesn't matter which one. Then, go to the comic shop and pick up the comic book adaptation of that movie. I can guarantee you with 100% certainty that the comic book adaptation *blows*. And yet, it's an identical story. All of your favorite scenes and beats are there, but they just suck now. The problem is that it's trying to do things that can only be done in a movie in a comic book.

The reverse is true as well. People just have to get over the novelty of "that thing that I like that never used to move is moving now!" to see it.

[42041]

Originally Posted by Steve Lilley

Something has to be "realistic" in some way (now I'm talking about the broader definition of the word, not in the context of the discussion that we're already having about BATMAN) to be "dramatic."

You can't have the second one without the first one. You have to have something to hold onto, to believe in, before it can be dramatic. If you take that away, you don't have drama. You have... apathy, I suppose.

What I'm saying is that sometimes the details are secondary to the narrative function of a scene or image. In the scene where

[Show spoiler]Batman flies off with the bomb, it's not really about the bomb at all anymore, it's about Bruce Wayne's would-be sacrifice or whatever, and the bomb is just a dangling macguffin... from how the scene is constructed the viewer should already know it's going to harmlessly detonate. If you have to use trigonometry to demonstrate the implausibility of that scene perhaps you've missed the point

[Steve Lilley]

You're allowed to "get the point" and still think something is dumb. It would take a dumb, dumb person not to get the point of that sequence. Say what you will about Christopher Nolan, but isn't exactly subtle.

Also, just to be clear, I'm totally not trigonometry guy. Out of the many, many problems I had with THE DARK KNIGHT RISES, that was never one of them. I'd checked out well before that point.

[Whirlygig]

Originally Posted by 42041

What I'm saying is that sometimes the details are secondary to the narrative function of a scene or image. In the scene where

[Show spoiler]Batman flies off with the bomb, it's not really about the bomb at all anymore, it's about Bruce Wayne's would-be sacrifice or whatever, and the bomb is just a dangling macguffin... from how the scene is constructed the viewer should already know it's going to harmlessly detonate. If you have to use trigonometry to demonstrate the implausibility of that scene perhaps you've missed the point

And what I've been saying is that sometimes a person can be well aware of everything you just said, and still want to say "gimme a break" with some humorous mathematics accompanying the statement, and can actually be saying nothing more than just "gimme a break". With no motive behind it other than to say "gimme a break". But for some reason saying "gimme a break" is now a crime.

You are absolutely right it is no longer about the bomb, but why do you want to give filmmakers a free pass to be lazy in the details of the implementation? The amount of time left on the bomb is comparatively as easy to change as what shirt I'm wearing right now. It's like they were so focused on "Bruce Wayne's would-be sacrifice" that nobody stepped back from the canvas for the 3 seconds it would have taken to say "hey wait, this countdown thing is kind of stretching things...viewers might recognize that...can we maybe do something about that like increase it a tad?"

Is there any threshold at which you would concede such a point? Like, what if the entire time it kept flashing shots of the bomb and the only numbers you ever saw were 2....1....0.... (seconds) for a sequence lasting 5 minutes on screen? Would you allow a statement like "gimme a break, that's kind of lazy" if there were 1 second left when his Bat lifted off the ground?

[rickah88]

I don't think anyone minds a "gimme a break" post, but 3-4 pages of it...not so much!

[Whirlygig]

Originally Posted by rickah88

I don't think anyone minds a "gimme a break" post, but 3-4 pages of it...not so much!

So, what do you want to discuss in threads about films?

By the way, those pages are less about "gimme a break" and more about why people have such a problem with "gimme a break". A distinction that is clear to anyone reading, and is worth recognizing. It's no longer about the thing, it's about the principle of the thing.

[lone_star_obelisk]

Originally Posted by 42041

What I'm saying is that sometimes the details are secondary to the narrative function of a scene or image. In the scene where ... just a dangling macguffin....If you have to use trigonometry to demonstrate the implausibility of that scene perhaps you've missed the point [/SPOILER]

Trig was used to confirm what my mind's eye detected as a glaring distraction from the scene....a big ole string of dangling MacCheesiness when it comes to rate, time and distance from the cams perspective and dramatic timer

[Steve Lilley]

Originally Posted by Whirlygig

By the way, those pages are less about "gimme a break" and more about why people have such a problem with "gimme a break". A distinction that is clear to anyone reading, and is worth recognizing. It's no longer about the thing, it's about the principle of the thing.

Yeah, I think it's a really interesting phenomenon, too. The general consensus seems to be that PERSON A thinks something is great, and if PERSON B doesn't then PERSON B must be:

1. An idiot
2. Nitpicky
3. Confused
4. Just a jerk
5. Lying

It's happened a bit in this thread, but I'm mainly talking more about "The Internet" in general and not anyone specific. The little I've read of this thread (I'll be damned if I'm going back that far) has been pretty tame by "Internet" standards.

It's super weird. I get that dissenting opinions can sometimes be a bit of a bummer, but I don't understand why people sometimes get *so* bent out of shape. It's not like by you not liking something I like, I am suddenly invalidated somehow.

Someone should write a paper on this. Anyone still in college that's up to the task?

[rickah88]

I don't really care what's discussed, as long as it's within forum rules and is topic relevant.

But if someone is going to continually steer the thread to why more fact isn't used in a fictional movie like this one, I'll ask "what's the point?"

It's kind of like counting the grains, of salt, in a saltshaker. Yes, it takes a little time and you can come to a, logical, conclusion...but what's the point?

[Steve Lilley]

The point is this:

THE DARK KNIGHT RISES is decidedly less realistic than either THE DARK KNIGHT or BATMAN BEGINS. Which is off-putting, disappointing and even disorienting in places. But mostly disappointing. Things like the trig and other examples were being to answer the question of "Does this seem super dumb, or is it just me?"

Some people are saying that it's okay to feel that way, while others are saying that it's not okay to feel that way. And as a result, everyone is annoyed with everyone else.

My last two sentences can also essentially be used to describe every message board ever, FYI.

[42041]

Originally Posted by Whirlygig

Is there any threshold at which you would concede such a point? Like, what if the entire time it kept flashing shots of the bomb and the only numbers you ever saw were 2....1....0.... (seconds) for a sequence lasting 5 minutes on screen? Would you allow a statement like "gimme a break, that's kind of lazy" if there were 1 second left when his Bat lifted off the ground?

Well, like most people, probably where it breaks my suspension of disbelief while I'm watching the film. But the time-bending countdown or imminent disaster thing is such a well-worn convention in movies that I don't even notice it at this point.
Granted, this threshold may be different for different people. But none of the people I know personally had a problem with the specifics of the execution of that scene (moreso the lazy plotting and tired plot devices) so I have to think that the filmmakers gauged people's tolerance for popcorn logic reasonably well.

[rickah88]

Originally Posted by Steve Lilley

The point is this:

THE DARK KNIGHT RISES is decidedly less realistic than either THE DARK KNIGHT or BATMAN BEGINS. Which is off-putting, disappointing and even disorienting in places. But mostly disappointing. Things like the trig and other examples were being to answer the question of "Does this seem super dumb, or is it just me?"

Some people are saying that it's okay to feel that way, while others are saying that it's not okay to feel that way. And as a result, everyone is annoyed with everyone else.

My last two sentences can also essentially be used to describe every message board ever, FYI.

Msg boards are a mish-mash of personailities, this is nothing new...going back to the glory days of Telnet.
As for TDKR, I've always said it's good - not great.
Using mathematics to point out a potential flaw in a fictional film about comic book character, IN MY OPINION, is a little over-the-top...but that brings us back the the glory days of Telnet, now doesn't it!

[crazyBLUE]

How about we just move on & not start the bickering back & forth Please.

It is starting to boil at this point & I don't want to do what I did a weak ago

Thanks

[Whirlygig]

Originally Posted by rickah88

I don't really care what's discussed, as long as it's within forum rules and is topic relevant.

But if someone is going to continually steer the thread to why more fact isn't used in a fictional movie like this one, I'll ask "what's the point?"

Do you not see that you are just repeatedly providing your opposing viewpoint to the very discussion you supposedly want to steer away from? I think better ways to act if you are tired of this topic are to either stop responding to those participating in the discussion or start offering another topic you'd like to run with. You know, a thread can be about multiple topics at once. Instead, doing what you are doing, you just come off as caring more than you let on and somehow thinking you are just as infallibly correct as you accuse the opposition of being.

Originally Posted by rickah88

Using mathematics to point out a potential flaw in a fictional film about comic book character, IN MY OPINION, is a little over-the-top...

There are some to whom typing a simple conversion equation to get from time & distance to MPH takes about 1 second to imagine and about as much to type out. It's not like he submitted a 20 page dissertation on the subject. The sequence of emoticons following it were blatant confirmation of his jestful demeanor, but that didn't stop some people from bringing down the hammer.

And to 42041's last point, it is just those people who would be more likely to have their suspension of disbelief broken by such a thing. I know I was thinking the same thing -- I wasn't doing math, but I was like...uhhh...I don't think he has enough time to get that where it needs to be.

Originally Posted by Steve Lilley

It's super weird. I get that dissenting opinions can sometimes be a bit of a bummer, but I don't understand why people sometimes get *so* bent out of shape. It's not like by you not liking something I like, I am suddenly invalidated somehow.

A comprehensive psychological study would potentially make a compelling read... Despite knowing that this is the way of things, it still seems outrageously ridiculous at times an never ceases to amaze me. Walking into any fan thread and offering a criticism is asking for this kind of trouble. I usually know better than to get into it but here I am, all because I thought I was relatively safe in thinking we could probably all at least admit that the makeout session during impending doom was at least worth a quick "gimme a break".

[rickah88]

I thought the Mods said to drop it? What gives?

[Whirlygig]

Originally Posted by rickah88

I thought the Mods said to drop it? What gives?

You can't see thread posts in real-time when you're in the middle of a response.

I never felt like it was near boiling. Sorry if anybody else did, we really can all just get along.

[crazyBLUE]

I will just close the thread if I have to rickah Won't be the first & won't be the last time I have done it.

[42041]

Originally Posted by Steve Lilley

It's super weird. I get that dissenting opinions can sometimes be a bit of a bummer, but I don't understand why people sometimes get *so* bent out of shape. It's not like by you not liking something I like, I am suddenly invalidated somehow.

I don't have any problem with people not liking TDKR... I think it's a bit of a mess, myself. But this seemingly recent trend of dissecting a film plot beat by plot beat and finding all these supposed "plot holes" that are supposedly a ruinous failure of filmmaking strikes me as bizarre, like people have spent their life unaware of how these kinds of movies work and have suddenly been unplugged from the matrix and are suddenly taking issue with tropes they've seen a billion times. I can't think of a movie that can hold up to such scrutiny, because accounting for everything is simply not the function of a blockbuster movie.