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Old 06-28-2011, 03:56 PM   #601
Jay444 Jay444 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P@t_Mtl View Post
Then why go all crazy about the fact that Lucas added Hayden Christensen to Return Of Jedi?
I have two thoughts on this:

1. Doesn't make much sense in the time line of the films and the overall message. Seeing young Anakin in death as the person he was just before he turned to the Dark side ruins the redemeption of the character in Jedi. Thus the journey the character takes in episodes 4-6 are ignored, kind of like it never happened, thus his redemption doesn't take place. He is redeemed as a good man at the end of Jedi, and should be there as old and wise (like Yoda and Obi Wan) not as the young, reckless man whom would eventually turn to evil. In other words, if Star Wars is supposed to be about the journey of Anakin Skywalker, having him as he was at the end of Sith hurts the message of learning from your mistakes and forgiveness. Like hitting a reset button. If Lucas REALLY wanted to show him in the form before he turned to evil, it really should be Jake Lloyd as a blue glowie. The character of Anakin played by Christensen displayed evil tendancies early on in ATOC.

2. Luke seeing his father as a young man should be more of a "WTF?!?" kind of moment as Luke would have NO IDEA who that guy was as he has never seen him before. It would be more like "There is Yoda, Obi Wan and some dude...uh...yeah...that guy who is younger than I am... Dad?" This isn't No Country for Old Men...LOL

That is just my thoughts though. I don't mind the change, I just think it takes away a bit from the good message of the film is all. I absolutly welcome hearing your thought on the change!
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Old 06-28-2011, 04:07 PM   #602
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay444 View Post
I have two thoughts on this:

1. Doesn't make much sense in the time line of the films and the overall message. Seeing young Anakin in death as the person he was just before he turned to the Dark side ruins the redemeption of the character in Jedi. Thus the journey the character takes in episodes 4-6 are ignored, kind of like it never happened, thus his redemption doesn't take place. He is redeemed as a good man at the end of Jedi, and should be there as old and wise (like Yoda and Obi Wan) not as the young, reckless man whom would eventually turn to evil. In other words, if Star Wars is supposed to be about the journey of Anakin Skywalker, having him as he was at the end of Sith hurts the message of learning from your mistakes and forgiveness. Like hitting a reset button. If Lucas REALLY wanted to show him in the form before he turned to evil, it really should be Jake Lloyd as a blue glowie. The character of Anakin played by Christensen displayed evil tendancies early on in ATOC.

2. Luke seeing his father as a young man should be more of a "WTF?!?" kind of moment as Luke would have NO IDEA who that guy was as he has never seen him before. It would be more like "There is Yoda, Obi Wan and some dude...uh...yeah...that guy who is younger than I am... Dad?" This isn't No Country for Old Men...LOL

That is just my thoughts though. I don't mind the change, I just think it takes away a bit from the good message of the film is all. I absolutly welcome hearing your thought on the change!
I was not commenting on the change but more asking joliefan who was saying and I quote "there is more to life then Star Wars" why he was going all crazy over the change if he feel this way?

Now about the change, I like it because the way I look at it, since Anakin was saved by Luke, he return to be the good man he once was. Anakin was never a good Jedi as an adult, the last time he was a Jedi he was in his early 20's and so returning as he was then for me make's more sense to return as a ghost of a man who never really was.

Personaly I have posted less and less in this thread as it's at time more then a bit silly. I lurk once in a while (like I did today) but on most days it's mostly looking like a grade school yard with a bunch of posts sounding like "my dad is stronger then your dad" Then again a lot of the threads in this forum have gotten extremely ridiculous over the last little while so I suppose it make's sense this one would as well.
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Old 06-28-2011, 04:17 PM   #603
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay444 View Post
I have two thoughts on this:

1. Doesn't make much sense in the time line of the films and the overall message. Seeing young Anakin in death as the person he was just before he turned to the Dark side ruins the redemeption of the character in Jedi. Thus the journey the character takes in episodes 4-6 are ignored, kind of like it never happened, thus his redemption doesn't take place. He is redeemed as a good man at the end of Jedi, and should be there as old and wise (like Yoda and Obi Wan) not as the young, reckless man whom would eventually turn to evil. In other words, if Star Wars is supposed to be about the journey of Anakin Skywalker, having him as he was at the end of Sith hurts the message of learning from your mistakes and forgiveness. Like hitting a reset button. If Lucas REALLY wanted to show him in the form before he turned to evil, it really should be Jake Lloyd as a blue glowie. The character of Anakin played by Christensen displayed evil tendancies early on in ATOC.

2. Luke seeing his father as a young man should be more of a "WTF?!?" kind of moment as Luke would have NO IDEA who that guy was as he has never seen him before. It would be more like "There is Yoda, Obi Wan and some dude...uh...yeah...that guy who is younger than I am... Dad?" This isn't No Country for Old Men...LOL

That is just my thoughts though. I don't mind the change, I just think it takes away a bit from the good message of the film is all. I absolutly welcome hearing your thought on the change!
I agree with your opinion,I think Anakin came back to the Light side of the Force in the moment when he decided to help Luke and throw the Emperor. In that moment he stopped serving the Dark side. So therefore I think the young Anakin should not be in the end of ROTJ. This is what I think.

Also it is weird to me that Luke made a "Force choke" on the two gurds in Jabba's palace...It is a trick of the Dark side of the Force...not the Jedi's.

Last edited by siso; 06-28-2011 at 04:20 PM.
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Old 06-28-2011, 04:21 PM   #604
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I think one of the major reasons we have Hayden Christensen at the end of RotJ is because of what Obi-wan said in ANH. He say's that Anakin Skywalker was killed by Darth Vader and he even backs this up in RotJ when Luke questions him (from a certain point of view). It's just symbolic.

I never understood the love for Sebastian Shaw at the end anyway. I have nothing against Shaw himself, anyone who argues that "Luke wouldn't recognize Anakin as his father," doesn't really have an argument for putting Shaw in the end. I don't think Luke would have recognized the older Anakin, and besides that Shaw just represents a "what if?".

Sounds like people are just trying to block out the PT entirely, trying to imagine it never happened. You just got to get over it, We all know they aren't as good as the originals, but you just take what you get and nothing's perfect.
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Old 06-28-2011, 04:23 PM   #605
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P@t_Mtl View Post
I was not commenting on the change but more asking joliefan who was saying and I quote "there is more to life then Star Wars" why he was going all crazy over the change if he feel this way?

Now about the change, I like it because the way I look at it, since Anakin was saved by Luke, he return to be the good man he once was. Anakin was never a good Jedi as an adult, the last time he was a Jedi he was in his early 20's and so returning as he was then for me make's more sense to return as a ghost of a man who never really was.

Personaly I have posted less and less in this thread as it's at time more then a bit silly. I lurk once in a while (like I did today) but on most days it's mostly looking like a grade school yard with a bunch of posts sounding like "my dad is stronger then your dad" Then again a lot of the threads in this forum have gotten extremely ridiculous over the last little while so I suppose it make's sense this one would as well.
I get cha! I like your interpretation as to why Hayden should be there, it makes sense no doubt in the current vision of the films. But I prefer the original because it meant more to me having Anakin go on a journey from good to evil and then back to good. But returning to good with all the warts and ugliness of the journey the character took, showing that there was a lesson learned. But we are def both right. It is just personal prefence for the viewer, more reason for Lucas to include a few different edits to the blu ray (would do his work more justice I think), but I will happily take what I can get.

This thread does get sorta crazy, but at least we aren't arguing about a 'green tint' yet. Key word being: Yet.
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Old 06-28-2011, 04:38 PM   #606
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Thank you for closing the Star Wars Tread in the Blu ray movie section it was getting out of hand.
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Old 06-28-2011, 06:19 PM   #607
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joliefan View Post
Thank you for closing the Star Wars Tread in the Blu ray movie section it was getting out of hand.
The thread wasn't closed. Some posts were either deleted or moved to this thread.

If you tried to reply to a post that was still displayed from not having been refreshed in a while, but had actually since been moved or deleted, you may have gotten a message about the thread being closed (I got something like that as well at one point). But the thread, itself, is very much still open and going.
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Old 06-28-2011, 06:26 PM   #608
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Originally Posted by aimforsilence View Post
What he said... Empire is the BEST Star Wars movie, in every respect!
No, it isnt.... but thats for another thread.
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Old 06-28-2011, 06:45 PM   #609
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I love how some of the discussion from the blu-ray thread has spilled into here. It seems this thread is for that "off-topic" discussion so I hope it continues to rage on.
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Old 06-29-2011, 12:52 AM   #610
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oh shit I didn't even realize there even was two threads Damn I don't follow along very well do I.

I do have some thoughts to add especially since the talk about Lucas bashing/fans popping up. Well here is my take on that issue. Yes the man has lied and he has changed his mind, even I, as a fan of the new stuff can still recognize that. What I don't get is how people can go to either extreme hating Lucas entirely or just blindly following the guy entirely. Look George Lucas put his name on Howard the Duck, that right there should tell you the man ain't perfect.


Now in regards to the whole should the be released or not, my stance is it is entirely up to Lucas so whatever his reasons weather you agree or not it is his right to release them or not period. Now I don't agree with every change nor do I hate every change but the fact is they are his movies to do with as he pleases and I think people need to just accept it.


I do like to point out though that the one change I hate the most is the new dialog in Empire between Vader and Palpatine.
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Old 06-29-2011, 02:38 AM   #611
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Originally Posted by HylianBowcaster View Post
I never understood the love for Sebastian Shaw at the end anyway. I have nothing against Shaw himself, anyone who argues that "Luke wouldn't recognize Anakin as his father," doesn't really have an argument for putting Shaw in the end. I don't think Luke would have recognized the older Anakin, and besides that Shaw just represents a "what if?".
Lucas felt that Luke recognized him, along with the audience, for 21 years. Luke could have easily recognized the older Anakin(Shaw) as the ghost. He was just with him, a little earlier in the day, unmasked in the hangar. I was age 10 on opening night and I immediately recognized Shaw in the ghost scene. Not just because you knew it had to be him but because it was clearly the same face, eyes, and smile we just saw in the hangar scene on the Death Star II.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HylianBowcaster View Post
We all know they aren't as good as the originals, but you just take what you get and nothing's perfect.
I do agree with that.
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Old 06-29-2011, 03:06 AM   #612
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Originally Posted by Breather View Post
Lucas felt that Luke recognized him, along with the audience, for 21 years. Luke could have easily recognized the older Anakin(Shaw) as the ghost. He was just with him, a little earlier in the day, unmasked in the hangar. I was age 10 on opening night and I immediately recognized Shaw in the ghost scene. Not just because you knew it had to be him but because it was clearly the same face, eyes, and smile we just saw in the hangar scene on the Death Star II.
I agree 100%. Personally, I think their are valid arguments for in favor of both versions (Ghost Hayden and Shaw). That being said, I definitely prefer Shaw-- I always got the impression that the vision of the ghosts were supposed to be for Luke-- he was the only who saw them. So for Anakin to choose to appear as a young guy that Luke wouldn't recognize doesn't make sense to me. After all, Obi-Wan and Yoda look the way Luke knew them.

I basically look at the films this way: The UOT represents the time before the prequels, when the films worked by themselves as an isolated trilogy. I refer to this as the golden age, before the "dark times."

The revised editions are continuations of Episodes I-III. Lucas' preferred order is to see them chronologically, and that's how he also wants future generations to see them. So, the OT has been retrofitted to be sequels to the prequels, and thus we have a young Anakin at the end of RotJ in order to bring the story full-circle from the previous "earlier episodes." We also see that Boba Fett has grown up to be just like his father, and we already know that Anakin had twins named Luke and Leia, etc.
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Old 06-29-2011, 04:12 AM   #613
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motorheadache95 View Post
I agree 100%. Personally, I think their are valid arguments for in favor of both versions (Ghost Hayden and Shaw). That being said, I definitely prefer Shaw-- I always got the impression that the vision of the ghosts were supposed to be for Luke-- he was the only who saw them. So for Anakin to choose to appear as a young guy that Luke wouldn't recognize doesn't make sense to me. After all, Obi-Wan and Yoda look the way Luke knew them.
We got Shaw because Anakin was originally supposed to be older when he fell to the dark side, not a twentysomething that he ended up to be when the prequels were made, therefore Anakin would have been 45 years old, tops. Not the 77 year old Sebastain Shaw.

In any case, Shaw's actual performance is still there, when he tells Luke he was right. The only change to that was the erasure of his eyebrows, which was explained by the type of burns Anakin experienced in Episode III.
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Old 06-29-2011, 03:32 PM   #614
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Originally Posted by BDBooking View Post
Didn't they put in Ewan McGregor in one of the original movies?
Oh god, I hope not.
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Old 06-29-2011, 03:40 PM   #615
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Originally Posted by HylianBowcaster View Post
I think one of the major reasons we have Hayden Christensen at the end of RotJ is because of what Obi-wan said in ANH. He say's that Anakin Skywalker was killed by Darth Vader and he even backs this up in RotJ when Luke questions him (from a certain point of view). It's just symbolic.

I never understood the love for Sebastian Shaw at the end anyway. I have nothing against Shaw himself, anyone who argues that "Luke wouldn't recognize Anakin as his father," doesn't really have an argument for putting Shaw in the end. I don't think Luke would have recognized the older Anakin, and besides that Shaw just represents a "what if?".

Sounds like people are just trying to block out the PT entirely, trying to imagine it never happened. You just got to get over it, We all know they aren't as good as the originals, but you just take what you get and nothing's perfect.
As someone who's not crazy about the change - this post makes a lot of sense and I agree with it. Very good argument.
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Old 06-29-2011, 03:43 PM   #616
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Originally Posted by phatrat1982 View Post
oh shit I didn't even realize there even was two threads Damn I don't follow along very well do I.

I do have some thoughts to add especially since the talk about Lucas bashing/fans popping up. Well here is my take on that issue. Yes the man has lied and he has changed his mind, even I, as a fan of the new stuff can still recognize that. What I don't get is how people can go to either extreme hating Lucas entirely or just blindly following the guy entirely. Look George Lucas put his name on Howard the Duck, that right there should tell you the man ain't perfect.


Now in regards to the whole should the be released or not, my stance is it is entirely up to Lucas so whatever his reasons weather you agree or not it is his right to release them or not period. Now I don't agree with every change nor do I hate every change but the fact is they are his movies to do with as he pleases and I think people need to just accept it.


I do like to point out though that the one change I hate the most is the new dialog in Empire between Vader and Palpatine.
I agree with all this too - especially the part about how much you hate the dialogue between Vader/Palpatine - but I really do hope he decides to release the UOT. One day I think it will happen.

Last edited by whaleman; 06-29-2011 at 03:48 PM.
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Old 06-29-2011, 03:48 PM   #617
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Originally Posted by HylianBowcaster View Post
Sounds like people are just trying to block out the PT entirely, trying to imagine it never happened.
I don't have an issue with the prequels, but I do have an issue with removing performances from the original films to try to shoehorn everything together.

Boba Fett's voice, Palpatine's hologram, Sebastian Shaw's ghost... these were part of the movies for decades. There's no reason to remove these things and stick in prequel-friendly alternatives.
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Old 06-29-2011, 08:22 PM   #618
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Originally Posted by adywan View Post
2 - The original theatrical versions. He stated at CV that the theatrical editions won't be included on this Blu-Ray set because it would cost too much to restore them (even though the restoration to the films was carried out for the Special editions BEFORE any changes were made, so that side of the work has already been done and FOX paid for this and not Lucas). Now he knows he needs to hold something back so a later release is guaranteed to sell. Now, with the 3D versions coming up, he knows that the 3D market is still pretty small so he will need to add something to the 3D Blu-Ray releases to guarantee sales and this will probably be the theatrical versions. Don't forget this is the same guy that originally said that the originals can never be restored because they don't exist any more because they cut the negative up to create the Special Editions. Now we know this isn't true. New negatives were made when the restoration was completed. They are sitting there in the vaults. Each and every films were scanned digitally before the work began on the SE's. Well now all of a sudden he is saying that it's "too expensive" to restore them. So what happened to the lie that they were destroyed? Robert Harris even said to George that he would restore these films for Free, but Lucas said no. So he doesn't really care about the fans there does he? No, he is holding off for when he needs to maximize sales for a product.
The neg for Star Wars was disassembled, chemically cleaned, and cut back together with the SE 'enhancements'. The only sections which were scanned were the bits with digital additions, NOT the entire film. There are no pristine restored original versions sitting in a vault somewhere. To think otherwise is foolish conspiracy nonsense. Lucas never said that the originals were "destroyed" either; I think the worst thing he's ever said about them is the more non-committal "To me, [they don't] really exist anymore".

Sure, putting the movies back together as they were wouldn't be a difficult challenge, providing that Lucasfilm has kept the originally shot VFX elements in as good condition as they were when they were recomp'ed for the '97 SE.

What I love about the whole 'Lucas is a money grabbing *****' argument is the fact that he won't restore and release the originals. Because if he does so, then every fanboy in existence will obviously lay down their cash and make Lucas richer than God. Right? Riiiiiiiiiight?

Last edited by Geoff D; 06-29-2011 at 08:29 PM.
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Old 06-29-2011, 09:54 PM   #619
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post
The neg for Star Wars was disassembled, chemically cleaned, and cut back together with the SE 'enhancements'. The only sections which were scanned were the bits with digital additions, NOT the entire film. There are no pristine restored original versions sitting in a vault somewhere. To think otherwise is foolish conspiracy nonsense. Lucas never said that the originals were "destroyed" either; I think the worst thing he's ever said about them is the more non-committal "To me, [they don't] really exist anymore".

Sure, putting the movies back together as they were wouldn't be a difficult challenge, providing that Lucasfilm has kept the originally shot VFX elements in as good condition as they were when they were recomp'ed for the '97 SE.

What I love about the whole 'Lucas is a money grabbing *****' argument is the fact that he won't restore and release the originals. Because if he does so, then every fanboy in existence will obviously lay down their cash and make Lucas richer than God. Right? Riiiiiiiiiight?

3) Q: Won't the original versions look really crude and in poor condition? Isn't that why Lucas had to enhance and restore them for the Special Edition?

A: The original version negatives today look about as good as the Special Edition negatives. That is because they are the same thing! The only differences are the new Special Edition shots. In 1995, Fox started restoring the entire negatives for the Star Wars films, which saved them from their state of disrepair. Luckily, this means the original versions can be presented in nearly the same quality as what you saw in theatres in the 1997 re-release. Were Lucasfilm to not to use the negatives, there are other 35mm materials available for use. Although some are in states of disrepair, many are not, and while not being as high quality as the negatives, should be very presentable. For instance, George Lucas himself kept a special Technicolor print of the original film, which does not fade at all and would look exactly as it did when it was first printed.

Q: Restoring or presenting the original versions in high quality is very expensive isn't it? Lucas does not have the money or desire to do so.

A: Lucas speaks about how expensive it would be and all the work that would need to be done, but in fact it would be relatively easy and inexpensive. One, presenting existing prints in high-def with modest cleanup would cost in the hundred thousand dollar range. Relatively speaking, this is very inexpensive, which is why obscure films like Police Academy 5 are available from original 35mm elements. Restoring the films from the negatives is not too expensive as well--because it was largely already done. In 1995, Twentieth Century Fox spent $20 million restoring and enhancing the Star Wars trilogy for the anniversary re-release. All that would need to be done today is retrieving the missing original pieces (roughly five to fifteen minutes per film), cleaning them if necessary, and editing them into a scan of the existing negative. Further cleanup could be done, but this is not strictly necessary, as the 1997 release had no major digital cleanup. So, the pricetag to finish the restoration of the trilogy from the negatives would be in the range of a million dollars, to throw a ballpark figure out there. To put this in perspective, the 2004 DVD set sold $100 million in its day of release. To put it in greater perspective, Lucas is a billionaire as it is. Lucas also need not involve himself in this, as film restorationists could handle the project themselves and seek to match the new digital copy to archival material.



For more information follow the link

http://savestarwars.com/faq.html
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Old 06-29-2011, 10:01 PM   #620
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^

Not to mention that both Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back have been included in the Library of Congress' National Film Registry for being “culturally, historically or aesthetically significant films”.

The damn US government has archival prints of these.
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