Spears & Munsil Blu-ray Test Disc

[Stacey Spears]

In the clipping boxes, what are the resulting RGB values for the inner boxes? Are they higher than 235

Clipping pattern boxes are as follows:
Y is within 16, 235
CbCr is within 16, 240

Once converted to RGB, they are all > 235. Each rectangle is roughly 4-5 values higher than the previous.

There are real discs (non test) that have Y values below 16 and above 235. Joe Kane always used The Talented Mr. Ripley as an example of Y below 16. Warner rejected some early encoding tests because values were hard clipped on a WFM.

As you point out, clipping on the RGB boxes of the actual clipping pattern is testing for clipping after conversion to RGB, which is where it really matters most. I think I posted examples some number of pages back with RGB < 16 as green and RGB > 235 as pink from real Blu-ray discs.

Do all Blu-ray movie vendors produce discs that will look right on a calibrated display?

The biggest area of difference will be on gamma and gamut.
Gamut - Early HD masters were done on Sony BVMs, so the correct color gamut would not be BT.709 and instead be SMPTE C.
Gamma - Some companies are using a gamma of 2.2 while others are using the correct gamma of 2.4 (BT.1886) Those still using 2.2 know they should be using 2.4, but its a large effort to get everything converted and they are working through it. The sad part is you have no idea which studios use which gamma.

[killermike2178]

Originally Posted by Tech-UK

killermike, I think Stacey is referring to the clipping test boxes. Of which are R,G,B and Cb, Cr.

Have you got super white enabled and Deep Color? And when you output RGB is limited selected?

If you haven't, try all these combinations. Super white is for YCC (provides WTW) and also enables xvYCC if your display supports it and you have any 'Mastered in 4K' Sony titles. RGB limited sets the PS3 to output 16,235 video level and Deep Color provides higher colour depth (display permitting). I do not know if the PS3 is capable of outputting both YCC 4:2:2 and 4:4:4, but Deep Color only works for 4:4:4 and RGB.

Yes, have checked those boxes, and if I switch it to RGB with limited selected, those get clipped off, too. Super White only works with Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr. And yes, I have Deep Color on. Like I said, I get the best looking results with Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr, so that's what I'm sticking with.

[Tech-UK]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

Clipping pattern boxes are as follows:
Y is within 16, 235
CbCr is within 16, 240

Once converted to RGB, they are all > 235. Each rectangle is roughly 4-5 values higher than the previous.

There are real discs (non test) that have Y values below 16 and above 235. Joe Kane always used The Talented Mr. Ripley as an example of Y below 16. Warner rejected some early encoding tests because values were hard clipped on a WFM.

As you point out, clipping on the RGB boxes of the actual clipping pattern is testing for clipping after conversion to RGB, which is where it really matters most. I think I posted examples some number of pages back with RGB < 16 as green and RGB > 235 as pink from real Blu-ray discs.

Ok, thanks. I will leave that Chroma level setting to 0, lowering it obviously produces some strange behaviour.

[Tech-UK]

This is my overall setup settings.

Pioneer BDP-LX52 > Pioneer VSX-921 > Pioneer PDP LX5090

Pioneer BDP-LX52

BD player set to output RGB Video, 36-bit Deep Color, Video Adjust preset: Professional, source Direct.

Pioneer VSX-921

Pass-through, no video adjustment.

Pioneer PDP LX5090

Video Selection: ISF-Night
Contrast: 25
Brightness: +1
Colour: +3
Tint: 0
Sharpness: -15
DRE Picture: Off
Black Level: Off
ACL: Off
Enhancer Mode: 1
Gamma (9 point): All 0
Colour Temp: Manual
Red High: -4
Green High: 0
Blue High: 2
Red Low: -1
Green Low: -1
Blue Low: -1
CTI: Off
CMS: All 0
Colour Space: 2
HDMI input signal: RGB Video

*From ControlCAL forum a person who has calibrated their LX5090 with a meter and software

I am aware that using someone else's settings are not going to produce perfect results on my display, but I do not have the kit to do a full blown calibration.

[helvetica bold]

Is there a way to test for x.v. color? I want to see if the PS4 will output properly on my new Sony display. I have the second edition disk, which patter would be best to use?

[Stacey Spears]

xvColor is not officially part of the BD Spec, so there was no way, at the time of authoring, to signal it.

Most displays have xvColor disabled in the TVs UI if its not present. You can check and see if they enable it when you are playing a know title that claims to support it. At least my Panasonic VT20 was like that.

[Tech-UK]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

xvColor is not officially part of the BD Spec, so there was no way, at the time of authoring, to signal it.

Most displays have xvColor disabled in the TVs UI if its not present. You can check and see if they enable it when you are playing a know title that claims to support it. At least my Panasonic VT20 was like that.

Stacey, doesn't one of the clipping patterns have a box called xvYCC?

I don't suppose you could share with us the YCC value of that?

I presume if the equipment wasn't clipping, that box would display an inner square even without xvYCC engaged?

[Stacey Spears]

I will have to dig up the YCbCr values.

The clipping pattern is not encoded as xvYCC. If you see concentric boxes in the xvYCC block, there are two possible reasons.

1. Below 16 values are clipped
2. The display is incorrectly in xvYCC mode

The xvYCC block should be flat. There may be some faint boxes, but mostly flat like the pop-up help displays.

This is the only block, in the pattern, that should be clipping when everything is correct. If we had the ability to use xvYCC, we would have had two versions of the pattern where one with boxes would be correct.

[Tech-UK]

Ok, thanks Stacey.

[helvetica bold]

Originally Posted by Stacey Spears

xvColor is not officially part of the BD Spec, so there was no way, at the time of authoring, to signal it.

Most displays have xvColor disabled in the TVs UI if its not present. You can check and see if they enable it when you are playing a know title that claims to support it. At least my Panasonic VT20 was like that.

I have Sony's new W900a with the Triluminos display. Ive played some of Sonys new Mi4K BluRays but the TV s UI doesnt display and xvColor info.
Unless the PS4 cant output xvColor at the moment. I'll try some movies on my PS3. I would also like to test the Xbox One's video output as well.

[Tech-UK]

Originally Posted by helvetica bold

I have Sony's new W900a with the Triluminos display. Ive played some of Sonys new Mi4K BluRays but the TV s UI doesnt display and xvColor info.
Unless the PS4 cant output xvColor at the moment. I'll try some movies on my PS3. I would also like to test the Xbox One's video output as well.

I don't think the PS4 can output xvYCC. PS3 can. Super White needs to be ON and you must be outputting YCbCr. The Xbox I doubt will support it.

[Stacey Spears]

Xbox One only outputs RGB right now. PS4 might be the same.

[Tech-UK]

http://manuals.playstation.net/docum...deooutput.html

But no mention of x.v.color or Super White.

Although the manual isn't exactly correct technically as I believe YCC can only be 'limited' (video), so they must be settings for 4:2:2 or 4:4:4. But I do not know if either of those settings allows you to manually select the outputted colour space, but rather tell the PS4 to output RGB full/limited or YCC 4:2:2/4:4:4 depending on which colour space is negotiated.

What do you think?

[helvetica bold]

I tested both the xbox one and the ps4 on my sony w900a. I used the clipping test pattern in adv calibration.
On the PS4 I had all video options (RGB & YCC) set to full. PS4 showed all the colors w/ in squares except xvYCC. It looked great!
In fact when I manually turned the W9s x.v.Color I could see all the squares in the xvYCC box. So does that mean the system will output xvColor or am I mistaken?

Xbox One is another story, I think it's a mess. When I have RGB Full turned on EVERY box appears clipped!! Only when I set RGB limited I can see the interior colors on the test pattern. I even had the dynamic range on the W9 set to full because I had to do that w/ the 360. Still all boxes clipped. So what's going on with the Xbox One? Why is it clipping the color range w/ RGB set to full. The entire time I had the Xbox One set to 36 bit color. could it be an issue with the BluRay app? Playing games w/ RGB full seems fine-nothing looks crushed. What's going on with the system?

[Stacey Spears]

Xbox One uses the labeling that is published in the HDMI specification, which is confusing to most people.

RGB Full = PC Levels. Black at 0 and white at 255 with below 16 and above 235 clipped.
RGB Limited = Video Levels. Black at 16 and white at 235 and all values below 16 and above 235 are preserved.

You should use RGB Limited mode, which is the proper levels for video as well as the default output mode for Xbox One.

In fact when I manually turned the W9s x.v.Color I could see all the squares in the xvYCC box.

Just to confirm, if you enable x.v.Color you could see all the squares in the xvYCC box and all other boxes too? If so, then yes, you are in xvYCC mode.

When you enabled x.v.Color, did you see a visible change (saturation) in the RGB boxes as well? When we created the pattern, we had no way to actually verify the xvYCC box would function as we had hoped. It was all in theory. We chose out of gamut cyan color values.

YCbCr Values for xvYCC Boxes: (From outter to inner)
1. YCbCr 133, 154, 15
2. YCbCr 127, 157, 1
3. YCbCr 129, 156, 6
4. YCbCr 131, 155, 11
5. YCbCr 133, 154, 15

[Tech-UK]

Thanks Stacey.

So a system that confines to video level will clip boxes 2,3 and 4?

Engaging x.v.Colour should display all boxes.

I have been trying to view IEC 61966-2-4, to find out what the component ranges are but it seems the documentation isn't free.

[Geoff D]

See, helvetica? I told you it'd work.

The thing is, don't go expecting the Mi4K Blu-rays to look incredibly different with xv colour on. The values of certain hues may well extend beyond the standard video gamut, but we're talking an extension of a few percent, not some wild kaleidoscope of colour that will assault your eyeballs.

And because you can't change the xv feature while you're actually looking at a picture - it's buried in the TV menu - you can't even do a quick A/B test with your eyes to see if there's an actual perceivable difference with moving content. I know it's working because the xvYCC boxes are there in the static Clipping pattern, as are all the other boxes, but I'm damned if I can see a difference with 'real world' content.

[helvetica bold]

Stacey yes, when I turn on xvColor on the W9 I can see ALL the interior boxes when viewing on the PS4. Yes to the the saturation change (I think), it does appear slightly punchier across the RGB boxes. IMO it looks to effect the reds and blues the most. If that makes sense. Could be the triluminos display at work.

Now about the Xbox One.
What's the difference w/ the RGB full on the PS4 and Xbox. Why is nothing clipped in PS4 but on the Xbox everything is? Wouldn't that indicate there is an error with the Xbox? I will keep the Xbox on limited for sure. I will say the black levels are much richer when it's on but I guess that incorrect. Looks washed out a bit on limited.
Thanks so much for the explanation!

[helvetica bold]

Geoff buddy, you are correct!! I remember watching After Earth (not a great film) thinking the the PQ is very sharp but I don't see any amazing colors. So why don't games take advantage of the xvColor space? I think the only one was the last Devil May Cry. I heard that worked in xvColor but I could be wrong. Anyway I'm more concerned with the clipping when the Xbox One RGB full is on. Why does that happen but not on the PS4? Bravo to Sony engineering the W9 and PS4 make a nice combo! : D

[Tech-UK]

RGB Full (PC level) shouldn't be selected when viewing Blu-ray's. Blu-ray's are encoded with YCbCr (which is video level. YCC is never full level), if your outputting RGB the player converts YCC to RGB, so if your experiencing clipping with the Xbox set to full, I wouldn't worry about it, as long as limited isn't clipping. To be honest clipping isn't a bad thing because not many Blu-ray's have information outside of 16 and 240, the mighty Pioneer Kuro's clip as I have a Kuro and I only get one inner square in each box, but I think green is completely clipped. It's been awhile since I last used my copy of the S&M 2nd Edition disc.