Cannibal Holocaust - Grindhouse (US) Blu-ray

[Mr Kite]

Originally Posted by oddbox83

No, you can't invent detail that isn't there. That's genuine shadow detail on the DVD that's not on the Blu.

I am afraid you can.

PS
But I have to admit that is a bit of a digital mess. So until something better comes along I will stick with the Shameless release, flawed but better than that.

[nagysaudio]

Invent detail or not, but some of you are not familiar with how encoding works. There can definitely be more detail in motion.

[Mr Kite]

Originally Posted by nagysaudio

Invent detail or not, but some of you are not familiar with how encoding works. There can definitely be more detail in motion.

How?

[oddbox83]

Originally Posted by tele1962

I am afraid you can.

PS
But I have to admit that is a bit of a digital mess. So until something better comes along I will stick with the Shameless release, flawed but better than that.

If you're suggesting contrast boosting on the DVD would magically fill in his suit void with true to life folds and creases, I want some of what you're taking.

[Mr Kite]

Originally Posted by oddbox83

If you're suggesting contrast boosting on the DVD would magically fill in his suit void with true to life folds and creases, I want some of what you're taking.

A little research goes a long way. To increase contrast wether it is in the source or at the TV end will show more detail, however this does not mean that is correct or the detail you are seeing was ever meant to be seen in the first place................try it and see.

[Kentai]

Originally Posted by nagysaudio

I know everything was worded carefully, but the way the entire thing was advertised I thought that this was definitely a new scan. The framing is different from all of the versions that I can find online. Vertical scratches and other damage is also either missing, or in different locations. So what is the actual evidence that this is an old scan, other than just an educated guess?

Most of the "other" (ie: European) releases were based on an HD scan the Italian licensors made of the film back in 2003 or 2004. Grindhouse Releasing requested a new 35mm print, and did an HD master of their own accord which i what the 2005 DVD was based on.

The Grindhouse master is notable for being darker, grainier and having an odd, slightly ugly yellow cast to all the 16mm scenes than its contemporaries. Unfortunately, I have yet to see their 35mm elements on the big screen, so for the time being the only useful point of comparison I have is the old DVD, which - AS YOU CAN SEE - has always looked "different" from the other versions, including the Netherlands Ultrabit DVD the Grindhouse BD is being compared to.

Proof? I got none. I'm just suggesting that 2 + 2 = 4, and I'm a little surprised anyone can see the caps of the new release and assume otherwise. Movies like ZOMBI 2, DEMONS 2, INVESTIGATION OF A CITIZEN ABOVE SUSPICION, TENEBRAE, THE NIGHT PORTER* and several others already mentioned in this thread all look immaculate on Blu-ray. There's nothing magical about Italian movies that makes them look worse than Hollywood films; they're usually shot on 35mm, and any archival 35mm source can produce better results than the blocky, digital junk we got this time around.

* The Night Porter has some really gnarly color grading issues, but the scan itself is fine. Same with BEYOND THE DARKNESS - and hell, that was shot on Super16!

Originally Posted by nagysaudio

Invent detail or not, but some of you are not familiar with how encoding works. There can definitely be more detail in motion.

I know exactly how encoding works. And I'm telling you the compression on the Grindhouse Blu-ray of Cannibal Holocaust is the least of its problems.

[AlexIlDottore]

Originally Posted by tele1962

I am afraid you can.

PS
But I have to admit that is a bit of a digital mess. So until something better comes along I will stick with the Shameless release, flawed but better than that.

I haven't seen the Shameless release with my eyes, but are you saying that the Shameless release is better than the Grindhouse release?

[Mr Kite]

Not sure, but going off those grabs yes..............again though I would like to see a direct comparison.

[AlexIlDottore]

Originally Posted by tele1962

Not sure, but going off those grabs yes..............again though I would like to see a direct comparison.

Without seeing a direct comparison, I prefer the Grindhouse release. It looks like film. I've read some reviews that say that the UK disc looks like video.

I'm not a fan of the UK caps that I've seen either.

[Mr Kite]

http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film3/dvd_r..._holocaust.htm

[AlexIlDottore]

Originally Posted by tele1962

http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film3/dvd_r..._holocaust.htm

I've already seen the caps, and read the review

[Kriztoffer Swank]

Going on caps alone, the Shameless transfer looks to me like many other Italian transfers where there's lots of noise and little in the way of actual detail beyond what DVD can reproduce. Contrary to the sharp noise upfront, the underlying image is very soft. Add to that lots of compression issues and the Shameless disc looks like dick. No doubt the GR disc is vastly preferable.

I didn't know until this debacle blew up over the Blu-ray that the 16mm footage is so heavily yellowed compared to other DVDs and Blu-rays. Even on GR's DVD, I always just assumed that was an intended look by the filmmakers, perhaps it is. I just had no idea other releases were on the cooler side of the spectrum.

I will say GR's BD looks pretty dang nice in motion. While watching, I did notice what I thought were compression artifacts, but looking at the still frames it certainly looks more like some form of noise—telecine noise as Kentai suggested and brought up the example of the Shogun Assassin Blu-rays. Similar kind of "dripping/running" noise, vertical lines down the screen, which in the case of Shogun Assassin, Robert Woodhead in an email to me referred to it as telecine noise from old scans created for DVD.

This would appear to be the case with GR's BD: they used the same master created for their DVD, and there were artifacts introduced during the telecine process that you wouldn't really notice on DVD on a 480i TV. Criminal that GR didn't pony up for an all-new scan, which I fully expected them to do given the quality of their prior Blu-ray releases.

But again, noise aside, it's a pretty nice transfer and the noise isn't as noticeable in motion. However, this really should have been the ultimate edition of the film, which it is far from being, though still the best available and perhaps best we'll ever see.

[Mr Kite]

Originally Posted by Kriztoffer Swank

Going on caps alone, the Shameless transfer looks to me like many other Italian transfers where there's lots of noise and little in the way of actual detail beyond what DVD can reproduce. Contrary to the sharp noise upfront, the underlying image is very soft. Add to that lots of compression issues and the Shameless disc looks like dick. No doubt the GR disc is vastly preferable.

I didn't know until this debacle blew up over the Blu-ray that the 16mm footage is so heavily yellowed compared to other DVDs and Blu-rays. Even on GR's DVD, I always just assumed that was an intended look by the filmmakers, perhaps it is. I just had no idea other releases were on the cooler side of the spectrum.

I will say GR's BD looks pretty dang nice in motion. While watching, I did notice what I thought were compression artifacts, but looking at the still frames it certainly looks more like some form of noise—telecine noise as Kentai suggested and brought up the example of the Shogun Assassin Blu-rays. Similar kind of "dripping/running" noise, vertical lines down the screen, which in the case of Shogun Assassin, Robert Woodhead in an email to me referred to it as telecine noise from old scans created for DVD.

This would appear to be the case with GR's BD: they used the same master created for their DVD, and there were artifacts introduced during the telecine process that you wouldn't really notice on DVD on a 480i TV. Criminal that GR didn't pony up for an all-new scan, which I fully expected them to do given the quality of their prior Blu-ray releases.

But again, noise aside, it's a pretty nice transfer and the noise isn't as noticeable in motion. However, this really should have been the ultimate edition of the film, which it is far from being, though still the best available and perhaps best we'll ever see.

To be honest the GR release is as big a digital mess as the shamelsss so nothing to choose between the two if going off the caps is anything to go by.

[Kriztoffer Swank]

GR's is a lot more filmic. It has its problems but even in screenshots it has nice grain (much more easily discernible in motion) and a strong film-like look, and the detail is rather high. For a nearly decade-old master, it's rather good, much better than what I'm seeing of the Shameless disc. It's not a disastrous transfer, and Lord knows I've enjoyed much lesser and far more problematic transfers (last night's viewing of Zombi Holocaust immediately springs to mind).

[Mr Kite]

Originally Posted by Kriztoffer Swank

GR's is a lot more filmic. It has its problems but even in screenshots it has nice grain (much more easily discernible in motion) and a strong film-like look, and the detail is rather high. For a nearly decade-old master, it's rather good, much better than what I'm seeing of the Shameless disc. It's not a disastrous transfer, and Lord knows I've enjoyed much lesser and far more problematic transfers (last night's viewing of Zombi Holocaust immediately springs to mind).

New scan on outdated equipment maybe?

Would love to see Arrow/Synapse give this the full treatment if decent elements still exist.

[Kriztoffer Swank]

If GR had done a new scan I don't think it would have been on outdated equipment, which is probably what happened with the master for the Shameless release. (Big stink made about LVR using outdated telecine machines, if indeed they handled it. For some reason, other Italian HD masters coming out of other film labs in Rome exhibit many of the same problems as LVR's botched jobs.)

The educated guess is that GR's Blu-ray utilizes their old master and it's telecine noise that we're noticing, because again, it does look similar to what's on the Shogun Assassin Blu-rays (which got cleaned up for the Lone Wolf and Cub discs), noise that has been confirmed by the head of AnimEigo to be introduced during the telecine process done several years ago for DVD releases.

Would be nice if somebody were to drop some cash on a new scan from the negatives. I doubt GR did for their Blu-ray; if they had, why does it look this way? Who knows if we'll be seeing it. The Germans have money, maybe they will. Watch as an immaculate scan is made but the color timing is all screwed up.

[JoeBuck]

Originally Posted by tele1962

To be honest the GR release is as big a digital mess as the shamelsss so nothing to choose between the two if going off the caps is anything to go by.

Have you seen the ACTUAL blu ray?
It's not the worlds best blu ray transfer but its certainly not "a big digital mess", I watched it with no problems and thought it looked pretty damn good overall.
Certainly better than you would expect a film with the subject matter and title of "Cannibal Holocaust" to get.
This release is well worth owning and I certainly don't expect anyone else to be putting out anything better anytime soon.

[Mr Kite]

Originally Posted by JoeBuck

Have you seen the ACTUAL blu ray?
It's not the worlds best blu ray transfer but its certainly not "a big digital mess", I watched it with no problems and thought it looked pretty damn good overall.
Certainly better than you would expect a film with the subject matter and title of "Cannibal Holocaust" to get.
This release is well worth owning and I certainly don't expect anyone else to be putting out anything better anytime soon.

In which way would the ACTUAL Blu Ray differ from the grabs?

Also why with a title like Cannibal Holocaust would it receive a poor scan?

[JoeBuck]

Originally Posted by tele1962

In which way would the ACTUAL Blu Ray differ from the grabs?

Also why with a title like Cannibal Holocaust would it receive a poor scan?

Ugh, why not try watching it and find out.
Seriously, it hasn't been getting good reviews for nothing.

[JoeBuck]

And it could've gotten worse treatment because exploitation films are hardly taken seriously by a lot of people.
It could've got to media blasters too