Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[zarquon]

Originally Posted by TROLLY

Digital is much better. Far more convenient. You’re not going to notice the difference, unless you’ve got a 70” TV.

Some won't notice, others will; we're all different with regard to how we perceive picture quality, and what our expectations are. Nobody's "wrong", just watch what you like, and be happy...

[Zu Nim]

Originally Posted by Ender14

When you purchase something through a digital storefront you don't technically own it. You are just renting it indefinitely. If that service goes out of business you have lost your content. This is a great article where a copyright lawyer states as much:

https://www.theatlantic.com/technolo...n-dies/409387/

So purchasing a disc is really the ONLY way to truly own the content you pay for.

This is a reason lockers like Movies Anywhere and UltraViolet matter. If Amazon goes out of business, most of my purchases will still be at Apple, Google, and Vudu. If all of those go out of business, there are bigger problems than my movie collection. Three of those are literally the top three largest in the world by market cap and the other is the largest by revenue.

The article is a bit silly. For example it says that Amazon won't exist in 100 years (probably true) but suggests that we'll lose culture because of it. The media studies professor doesn't realize that (a) the content is owned by the studios, not the retailers and (b) in 100 years every piece of their content will be in the public domain for anyone to freely copy.

Ultimately I only need my purchases to last until The Next Big Format, which really is The Next Business Model a/k/a subscription. I don't need to own the media, I need access to the content at a fair price.

[randian]

Originally Posted by Zu Nim

in 100 years every piece of their content will be in the public domain for anyone to freely copy.

No it won't. Congress operates by the Disney rule. Every time Disney's product would be eligible for the public domain Disney lobbies Congress to extend copyrights. Congress has never failed them. Current copyright expiration is death + 75 years, making a mockery of the Constitution's notion that copyrights are given "for a limited time".

[Zu Nim]

Originally Posted by randian

No it won't. Congress operates by the Disney rule. Every time Disney's product would be eligible for the public domain Disney lobbies Congress to extend copyrights. Congress has never failed them. Current copyright expiration is death + 75 years, making a mockery of the Constitution's notion that copyrights are given "for a limited time".

Copyrights terms are ridiculous and 1998 was sad. But I'd read Why Mickey Mouse’s 1998 copyright extension probably won’t happen again for a current take.

[moviegeek1992]

Originally Posted by Ender14

I think physical provides a better experience. I have a 65" TV and can tell the difference between streaming and physical immediately when I walk into the room. The clarity and color from a physical disc is better than streaming to my eyes.

With that being said, I do redeem all of the digital codes from my physical discs. There are times a digital copy is convenient. And now that they are including the bonus features digitally, I will generally watch them that way rather than using the disc since I'm not as concerned with PQ on features.

But I enjoy having a physical collection. I have collected VHS, Laserdisc, DVD, Blu-ray and now 4K. I like the idea of owning something I pay for. When you purchase something through a digital storefront you don't technically own it. You are just renting it indefinitely. If that service goes out of business you have lost your content. This is a great article where a copyright lawyer states as much:

https://www.theatlantic.com/technolo...n-dies/409387/

So purchasing a disc is really the ONLY way to truly own the content you pay for.

See as much as I like physical media, I can never understand why people always bring this point up as a negative towards digital. The fact that it's a lifetime rental doesn't make it any less yours. If you bought the movie you'll have access to it compared to if you didn't buy it. Same thing with the physical media except that's something tangible, that's the only real difference.

Companies like iTunes and Amazon won't be going anywhere anytime soon. Folks never complained that physical media was evil when blu-ray came out and they felt compelled to rebuy all their movies. Even now someone may spend a pretty penny on a DVD for it to be announced a week later on blu-ray. The idea of 'losing' your movies needs to be put in perspective because the movie will always be available whether digitally or physically, if you happen to 'lose' your digital copy for whatever reason what you really lost was money, because the movie can always be repurchased. Now someone whose disc has rotted or whose kids have scratched it to hell will equally lose money similar to if a digital provider pulled their access to it and they have to get another copy. Or upgrading to blu-ray and your DVDs aren't worth anything so they don't help cover the cost.

Internet goes down and you can't watch a movie? I bought Dawn of the Planet of the Apes on blu-ray and due to the firmware update needed to play the movie I was unable to play it even after testing it on 3 blu-ray players! My copy of Tangled was eaten by my PS3 when it decided to get the red rings of death, I was unable to watch Tangled that night. Stuff happens and we can't always have 100% guaranteed access. I was watching a copy of Body Double that I had bought for cheap on Amazon Video last year and the electricity went out for a few minutes, interrupting my enjoyment but had that been a disc the same thing would have happened. I was also watching Logan's Run on blu-ray and the player was making a loud whirring noise playing the disc, I had to switch players to stop that. Now if I didn't have access to another player, I'd have to sit through an annoying loud noise which would have totally ruined my enjoyment of the movie.

There's pros and cons on each side and like others have said it all depends on personal preference which one you would like to go with. I think the only rock solid negative against digital is PQ/AQ and even the extent of that is subjective as not everyone is sensitive to the missing quality.

[PCFan]

Originally Posted by moviegeek1992

See as much as I like physical media, I can never understand why people always bring this point up as a negative towards digital. The fact that it's a lifetime rental doesn't make it any less yours. If you bought the movie you'll have access to it compared to if you didn't buy it. Same thing with the physical media except that's something tangible, that's the only real difference.

Companies like iTunes and Amazon won't be going anywhere anytime soon. Folks never complained that physical media was evil when blu-ray came out and they felt compelled to rebuy all their movies. Even now someone may spend a pretty penny on a DVD for it to be announced a week later on blu-ray. The idea of 'losing' your movies needs to be put in perspective because the movie will always be available whether digitally or physically, if you happen to 'lose' your digital copy for whatever reason what you really lost was money, because the movie can always be repurchased. Now someone whose disc has rotted or whose kids have scratched it to hell will equally lose money similar to if a digital provider pulled their access to it and they have to get another copy. Or upgrading to blu-ray and your DVDs aren't worth anything so they don't help cover the cost.

Internet goes down and you can't watch a movie? I bought Dawn of the Planet of the Apes on blu-ray and due to the firmware update needed to play the movie I was unable to play it even after testing it on 3 blu-ray players! My copy of Tangled was eaten by my PS3 when it decided to get the red rings of death, I was unable to watch Tangled that night. Stuff happens and we can't always have 100% guaranteed access. I was watching a copy of Body Double that I had bought for cheap on Amazon Video last year and the electricity went out for a few minutes, interrupting my enjoyment but had that been a disc the same thing would have happened. I was also watching Logan's Run on blu-ray and the player was making a loud whirring noise playing the disc, I had to switch players to stop that. Now if I didn't have access to another player, I'd have to sit through an annoying loud noise which would have totally ruined my enjoyment of the movie.

There's pros and cons on each side and like others have said it all depends on personal preference which one you would like to go with. I think the only rock solid negative against digital is PQ/AQ and even the extent of that is subjective as not everyone is sensitive to the missing quality.

One negative with digital (including digital games) is that you can't resell a digital purchase. There is less of a feeling of ownership with digital as you are more restricted with digital.

[Vor4]

Originally Posted by PCFan

One negative with digital (including digital games) is that you can't resell a digital purchase. There is less of a feeling of ownership with digital as you are more restricted with digital.

It seems like you can't make up your mind on digital media and physical media. You probably had the same number of issues with physical media and digital media. You probably had blu-ray players in the past that had loud disk drive noises while watching a movie, playback issues, the streaming services sometimes don't load. You're probably are not the only one that had these issues, I had them as well as many others.

Physical media is always an expensive option. What if you decided to sell a movie after one viewing and a few months later you bought the same movie to watch it again. With digital media, you don't need to repurchase the movie again. Amazon Video, iTunes, and Vudu, all have weekly or biweekly sales on digital movies all the time. People can also purchase UV movie codes and iTunes movies codes on this forum for a fraction of the price than buying the digital movie through the service provider or buying the physical copy. You can download it to your computer and stream it to your streaming media player.

Many retail stores are shrinking the physical media sections and physical media player sections. More people are buying streaming media players these days. Even Amazon.com is promoting their streaming video and music services and hardware more than promoting physical media. Even if you watch tv or listen to the car radio, the commercials on movies that will be released within a few days or a few weeks states "Only available on digital hd or get now on digital hd."

Probably next year, the major electronic video manufacturers (Sony, Panasonic, Samsung, and LG) might be focusing on media streamer players instead of physical media players.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by moviegeek1992

See as much as I like physical media, I can never understand why people always bring this point up as a negative towards digital. The fact that it's a lifetime rental doesn't make it any less yours. If you bought the movie you'll have access to it compared to if you didn't buy it. Same thing with the physical media except that's something tangible, that's the only real difference.

Have you forgotten about your earlier post?

Originally Posted by moviegeek1992

So I recently bought La La Land on iTunes (my first film from them). I watched it and noticed that the subtitles weren't formatted properly. They were those weird closed captions rather than the traditional SDH subs. So I shot Apple support an email enquiring about this. Without asking or confirming they automatically removed the title from my library and refunded me. Telling me to wait two weeks for them to sort the issue out and to buy it again afterwards. But seeing as I purchased it on sale, the price has now gone up. Wouldn't it have been easier for them to suggest I wait two weeks for them to try and sort out the issue and if they couldn't I could then ask for a refund?

The point is the fact that they were able to pull the title from my collection shows I had no control over that title. I did complain and to their credit they offered me two rentals for free. But it just reminded me that I myself don't have the same ability to curate my collection as I do with physical.

As you stated here, you have no control. You simply made a customer service inquiry, and they took the title that you already had away. I'm hard pressed to think of a comparable scenario involving physical media. Even in instances where a release is recalled and pulled from shelves, those who bought it still have it. If that happens with iTunes or Amazon, don't count on being able to access it later through them even if you bought it.

Companies like iTunes and Amazon won't be going anywhere anytime soon. Folks never complained that physical media was evil when blu-ray came out and they felt compelled to rebuy all their movies. Even now someone may spend a pretty penny on a DVD for it to be announced a week later on blu-ray. The idea of 'losing' your movies needs to be put in perspective because the movie will always be available whether digitally or physically, if you happen to 'lose' your digital copy for whatever reason what you really lost was money, because the movie can always be repurchased. Now someone whose disc has rotted or whose kids have scratched it to hell will equally lose money similar to if a digital provider pulled their access to it and they have to get another copy. Or upgrading to blu-ray and your DVDs aren't worth anything so they don't help cover the cost.

Internet goes down and you can't watch a movie? I bought Dawn of the Planet of the Apes on blu-ray and due to the firmware update needed to play the movie I was unable to play it even after testing it on 3 blu-ray players! My copy of Tangled was eaten by my PS3 when it decided to get the red rings of death, I was unable to watch Tangled that night. Stuff happens and we can't always have 100% guaranteed access. I was watching a copy of Body Double that I had bought for cheap on Amazon Video last year and the electricity went out for a few minutes, interrupting my enjoyment but had that been a disc the same thing would have happened. I was also watching Logan's Run on blu-ray and the player was making a loud whirring noise playing the disc, I had to switch players to stop that. Now if I didn't have access to another player, I'd have to sit through an annoying loud noise which would have totally ruined my enjoyment of the movie.

There's pros and cons on each side and like others have said it all depends on personal preference which one you would like to go with. I think the only rock solid negative against digital is PQ/AQ and even the extent of that is subjective as not everyone is sensitive to the missing quality.

Not all movie are necessarily guaranteed to be available perpetually to purchase/repurchase.

Case in point, Kevin Smith's film Dogma.

This is one of the films from his "Askewniverse." While those movies in general never set the box office "on fire," they have a very big cult following. I happen to be a big fan of these films myself, and not having access to any of the films from that connected series would be upsetting for me. It is not available digitally.

The linked article above goes into the complicated ownership/rights issues with this film.

The key bullet points of the issue:

-Dogma was originally made and owned by Miramax back when Disney owned that company.

-Due to the religious content, some religious groups protested the release of the movie.

-Due to the "heat" from this controversy, Disney sold the movie to Bob and Harvey Weinstein. To this day the film is flat out owned by them, and not by any studio

-The movie was released theatrically by Lionsgate under a licensing/distribution deal (similar to Lucasfilm owning Episodes V, VI and all of the prequels of Star Wars, but Fox to date distributing them, at least theatrically and on physical media), and by Sony on DVD and later Blu-Ray.

-Digital distribution wasn't really even much of a "thing" when these distribution deals were struck, so rights for that sort of distribution have never been sold/licensed, and the film hasn't been released in that manner at all.

-The DVD and Blu-Ray releases are now out of print. I'm not certain if that is because Sony simply decided not to make further copies, or a result of the licensing agreement for distribution having a time limit that has ended and not been renewed. I'm inclined to believe the latter, since Sony isn't generally known to pull things out of print for the heck of it, and many movies that they released when Blu-Ray was a relatively new format are still available, many in the same editions that were originally released in a decade or so ago.

-Given that the film is owned by the Weinsteins, and issues with the accusations against Harvey and the fact that his brother basically forced him out of the company, I'm not holding my breath on this film getting new licenses for physical or digital releases being a priority on their end anytime soon.



While the physical discs are out of print, they can still be purchased on ebay, the Amazon marketplace, etc. Yeah, they can go for a lot, especially the Blu-Ray version. But at least the option is there, and there are relatively decent priced options out there, like a gently used copy for between $30 and $40. Yeah, that's not cheap, but compared to new and sealed copies going for twice that much or more, it's not bad for someone who REALLY wants the movie. Also the DVD options are much cheaper on average. While not the best PQ/AQ, it's better than not having access to the film at all.

If someone simply never bought it, or their existing copy is lost/stolen/damaged/etc., they have a way to add it to/get it back in their collection.



While it has never been made available through digital services like Amazon or iTunes, let's imagine what the current circumstances would be if it had been, but like the physical copies, was no longer available for first hand sale (and therefore, in the case of digital, cannot be officially/legally obtained at all once that happens).

Given the complicated ownership and distribution rights, it's not entirely out of the realm of possibility that the title could be pulled from people's collections some time after the rights expire, especially if for any reason the owners of that title were to insist on it being pulled. That may not be the most likely scenario, but it's not impossible. The legal right for them to remove access at any time is buried in the user agreements that you accept when buying things digitally.

And even if it's not arbitrarily pulled completely from the collections of everyone who purchased it while available, suppose that a title no longer available to purchase was one that you were to email iTunes about with an inquiry like you did with La La Land, and without first having a discussion with you, they just pulled it in a similar manner. Now you have NO WAY of getting it back.



I generally agree that iTunes and Amazon's digital services are not likely to "go away" anytime soon. But that doesn't mean it can't happen eventually. Heck, they are both big companies. Suppose a decade from now things shift and one is doing much, much better than the other, and maybe one company buys the other. Now you have to hope that your digital titles transfer over to the new service with minimal problems. This is already a concerning scenario for titles that are still available for purchase. But a title no longer available for purchase under circumstances along these lines? Even if both services sold the title while it was available and prior to the buy out still had it available to their respective customers who previously bought it, since such a transfer of rights would on some level constitute a new transaction (even if it's one that you wouldn't have to pay money for), there's a good chance it wouldn't make the transfer.




See, this is the sort of thing that I'm talking about when I bring up the issues with digital distribution, and the red tape and bureaucracy that can very easily get in the way of simply having access to watch a movie that you want.

You can argue that this is "just one movie," but that's besides the point. One movie effected in this capacity is one too many. And while these kinds of issues may be the exception and not the rule, it is still not likely to be an isolated incident.

And in this case, while we aren't talking about some huge blockbuster film, this is a movie that did very well relative to it's budget, got some good reviews, and has a strong cult following. This isn't some terrible movie that 99.9% of critics and general audiences hated and completely flopped at the box office (and even if it was, on principle it still wouldn't be right IMO for anyone, even the .01% of people who did like it, to be effected in this manner).


Now you can make the argument about this just being a title that one would have to own physically instead of digitally since you are generally advocating for a mix of both. But while I doubt that physical media will completely go away anytime soon, the larger of a foothold that digital gets, the more likely that some titles, especially relatively smaller ones, may not get a physical release, or if they do, will have a very limited one. If such a title were to go into limbo like Dogma is now, and for one reason or another you lose access to your digital copy, then it may not be available at all the purchase physically on the secondary market, and if it is, it may be VERY cost prohibitive due to supply and demand.

Each time someone opts to buy a movie digitally rather than physically, they are helping to gradually increase the likelihood of issues like this becoming more of a problem for titles that find themselves in strange ownership/licensing scenarios like this.





It's true that physical media isn't perfect. I don't think anyone is saying that it is. But you have more control and more options, especially with re obtaining anything out of print and no longer available for sale through normal retailers.

Regarding the firmware update point, that's something that I've never been thrilled about either. Though I'm curious as to how old your players are. Not that using an older player that is still otherwise in working order should even be an issue, but the firmware update thing was more of a problem with older players back when the specs and standards of the Blu-Ray format were still evolving and in flux. That really hasn't been the case for a long time, and newer players generally don't have an issue simply playing newer discs due to not updating to the latest firmware. Unless your players are from the early years of the format and/or made by Samsung, this problem should be relatively minimal now (but yes, is annoying that it was ever an issue at all).


But back on point, if a physical product is poorly made and of bad quality, making it likely to fail quickly, I am very critical in that kind of scenario. But assuming that the product in question was manufactured to reasonable quality standards, then on sheer principle, I find the idea of a physical product wearing out due to reasonable wear and tear from normal use, or even being stolen by a criminal (not that I want that to happen), to be more acceptable than the idea of a service provider and/or studio pulling access to a film that I have purchased, be it by their direct choice, or due to red tape and bureaucracy issues beyond their control. IMO those latter possibilities with digital distribution, which very much do exist, just shouldn't have to be a factor at all regardless of the distribution method in question. But with digital, that's the way it is. Instead of worrying about the content being stolen away from us by some criminal breaking into one of our homes, instead with digital the concern is for it to not essentially be 'stolen' by the very companies that the content was purchased from.

In theory , removing the dependence on a single physical good (i.e. a disc) should be a good thing. When you can access the content that you've paid for without having to worry about a single individual physical item failing, and you can access it from many devices, that should be optimal. But the aforementioned legalities, red tape, bureaucracy, etc. completely f--- up that ideal state, making things very uncertain for the long haul. And these are concerns that people should take more seriously.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Vor4

What if you decided to sell a movie after one viewing and a few months later you bought the same movie to watch it again. With digital media, you don't need to repurchase the movie again.

Well, if the title is bought upon release when the price is high, watched once, and sold quickly afterwards, a decent chunk of that money could be recouped. If he decides to buy it again later on, there's a good chance that the price will have dropped.

With digital, there is no option to sell it. You don't "need" the repurchase the title because there is no option to sell it off in the first place. Regardless of whether it is bought at full release price or on a really good sale, if the buyer watches it and doesn't like it, they are pretty much stuck with it (unless any of the issues outlined in my post above effect that title down the road).

[veritas]

Originally Posted by Vor4

Physical media is always an expensive option. What if you decided to sell a movie after one viewing and a few months later you bought the same movie to watch it again. With digital media, you don't need to repurchase the movie again. Amazon Video, iTunes, and Vudu, all have weekly or biweekly sales on digital movies all the time. People can also purchase UV movie codes and iTunes movies codes on this forum for a fraction of the price than buying the digital movie through the service provider or buying the physical copy. You can download it to your computer and stream it to your streaming media player.

.

Buy low sell high. If you bought at market price you can probably sell it at more or less market price in that scenario. If you bought a digital movie on the other hand you are out the price you payed and cant recoup anything. I Had quite a few Disney titles that are out of print. Because of this I was able to sell them at 30 to 60 a piece a year or 2 ago (because that was the market value and a lot more then I valued the titles personally) and then pick them up again for around $5 each later. That's something you simply cant do with digital.

Also you should consider sunk cost. If I bought a digital movie for 15 and a physical movie for 15 the price I payed for each is simply a sunk cost at that point. Later when I decide I'm getting rid of the movie I get nothing back from digital but I can recoup some of my money with physical. Even if its only $5 I would still be $5 better off then if I had gone digital. When you look at a physical collection and a digital collection and you want to sell both the physical collection still has value but your digital collection is worthless (the value somebody will pay you for it).

Overall your arguments really bad on this point. Your basically saying its better to lease then to own because if you own something you might sell it (at a loss) and have to rebuy it again (at more then you sold it for) later. If that logic fits you often then you have bigger problems with money then if you should go physical or digital.

[Zu Nim]

I'm emboldening some of the response because it's way too long for most to bother with. I'm not yelling. Freely remove it if you quote it.

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

You simply made a customer service inquiry, and they took the title that you already had away.

Usually proactive customer service is a good thing but in this case for this customer it wasn't.

Apple has no control over the content on their store so they wouldn't be sure if the issue could be resolved in a timely manner. If they leave the movie in the customer's account and it hasn't been corrected before the refund window closes then it becomes a headache for the customer and Apple. Apple can't fix it and the customer can't get their money back. (And they won't proactively remove it from a customer's library if it's outside the refund window.)

If that happens with iTunes or Amazon, don't count on being able to access it later through them even if you bought it.

If it's that worrisome, download the iTunes movie and store it locally. Then it won't matter if it's removed.

Not all movie are necessarily guaranteed to be available perpetually to purchase/repurchase.

Case in point, Kevin Smith's film Dogma.

No one alive today will live in perpetuity. Perpetuity doesn't matter.

Licensing issues have caused problems like this for decades. It took a long time for music to get everything together as it entered the CD age and movies have had the similar issues. If the rights weren't negotiated originally they have to be renegotiated. That's not unique to digital.

The idea that the Weinsteins are too busy to deal with Dogma is probably not the right way to think about it. An unreleased movie generates no income, and the Weinsteins need money. They have been actively selling assets. The harder they get squeezed the sooner it will come loose. So I suspect Dogma gets rereleased sooner rather than later.

But at least the option is there, and there are relatively decent priced options out there, like a gently used copy for between $30 and $40. Yeah, that's not cheap, but compared to new and sealed copies going for twice that much or more, it's not bad for someone who REALLY wants the movie. Also the DVD options are much cheaper on average. While not the best PQ/AQ, it's better than not having access to the film at all.

It's like you're telling a commercial fisherman to not worry if they stop selling fishing vessels because they can always buy a yacht. Or a dinghy. A dinghy isn't the best boat but it's better than not fishing at all.

Options that don't fit most people's needs (too expensive, poor quality) aren't options at all. If the average person's disc broke they're simply not going to replace it. For them a $70 copy of Dogma might as well not exist.

Given the complicated ownership and distribution rights, it's not entirely out of the realm of possibility that the title could be pulled from people's collections some time after the rights expire, especially if for any reason the owners of that title were to insist on it being pulled.

It's effectively out of the realm. Today's contracts are written to prevent that from happening. These rights all have to be cleared or the movie won't be for sale. It would make for a bad customer experience and that's bad for business. The only plausible situation where something might be pulled is if it the rights to distribute it were never properly acquired and/or was infringing. I haven't heard of that happening with a digital release but it wouldn't surprise me if there's a case where a non-original-distributor got it wrong.

Even if both services sold the title while it was available and prior to the buy out still had it available to their respective customers who previously bought it, since such a transfer of rights would on some level constitute a new transaction (even if it's one that you wouldn't have to pay money for), there's a good chance it wouldn't make the transfer.

But we have numerous cases where a company exits the line of business and either transfers the licenses to another company or refunds the customers.

You could make some hay by using CinemaNow as a (small) example but even then most of the content was UV-compatible. And I'll point back to Movies Anywhere removing a lot of these concerns.

You can argue that this is "just one movie," but that's besides the point. One movie effected in this capacity is one too many. And while these kinds of issues may be the exception and not the rule, it is still not likely to be an isolated incident.

No, it's really not. You have a movie that hasn't made it to digital distribution yet and it's physical distribution has ended. That has happened with every format shift. It doesn't invalidate the shift or we'd all still be watching DVDs because so much didn't transition to Blu-ray.

If such a title were to go into limbo like Dogma is now, and for one reason or another you lose access to your digital copy, then it may not be available at all the purchase physically on the secondary market, and if it is, it may be VERY cost prohibitive due to supply and demand.

So the same situation as if a disc was lost, stolen or damaged.

Each time someone opts to buy a movie digitally rather than physically, they are helping to gradually increase the likelihood of issues like this becoming more of a problem for titles that find themselves in strange ownership/licensing scenarios like this.

Buying discs over digital is not going to change the distribution issues for Dogma.

Instead of worrying about the content being stolen away from us by some criminal breaking into one of our homes, instead with digital the concern is for it to not essentially be 'stolen' by the very companies that the content was purchased from.

I look forward to reading your presumably lengthy list of titles that have been stolen from customers.

And these are concerns that people should take more seriously.

People have taken them seriously, but they've judged them not credible.

Often it feels like people telling others to avoid their lawn because of the tigers. Sure, look out your window and there aren't any tigers there now, or in the past, but there could be and won't you regret it when you get attacked!

[Zu Nim]

Originally Posted by veritas

Because of this I was able to sell them at 30 to 60 a piece a year or 2 ago (because that was the market value and a lot more then I valued the titles personally) and then pick them up again for around $5 each later. That's something you simply cant do with digital.

And you also lost access to them. You don't lose access to digital. Different strokes.

Also you should consider sunk cost. If I bought a digital movie for 15 and a physical movie for 15 the price I payed for each is simply a sunk cost at that point. Later when I decide I'm getting rid of the movie I get nothing back from digital but I can recoup some of my money with physical. Even if its only $5 I would still be $5 better off then if I had gone digital. When you look at a physical collection and a digital collection and you want to sell both the physical collection still has value but your digital collection is worthless (the value somebody will pay you for it).

Generally once you spend it the cost is sunk. You may recover some of the cost down the line but if you never sell the disc then the two are the same. Most discs sell for a fraction of their cost (if you can offload them) and you're not factoring in the value of your own time. Also, if you're holding on to the discs for a relatively short period you'd probably be better off using Redbox.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Vor4

It seems like you can't make up your mind on digital media and physical media. You probably had the same number of issues with physical media and digital media. You probably had blu-ray players in the past that had loud disk drive noises while watching a movie, playback issues, the streaming services sometimes don't load. You're probably are not the only one that had these issues, I had them as well as many others.

Physical media is always an expensive option. What if you decided to sell a movie after one viewing and a few months later you bought the same movie to watch it again. With digital media, you don't need to repurchase the movie again. Amazon Video, iTunes, and Vudu, all have weekly or biweekly sales on digital movies all the time. People can also purchase UV movie codes and iTunes movies codes on this forum for a fraction of the price than buying the digital movie through the service provider or buying the physical copy. You can download it to your computer and stream it to your streaming media player.

Many retail stores are shrinking the physical media sections and physical media player sections. More people are buying streaming media players these days. Even Amazon.com is promoting their streaming video and music services and hardware more than promoting physical media. Even if you watch tv or listen to the car radio, the commercials on movies that will be released within a few days or a few weeks states "Only available on digital hd or get now on digital hd."

Probably next year, the major electronic video manufacturers (Sony, Panasonic, Samsung, and LG) might be focusing on media streamer players instead of physical media players.

No they won’t. The streaming boxes are established now, it would be a fruitless action to release streaming devices. More likely we will carry on with disc players that can stream. Ya think?

Also Digital HD is being hyped and pushed but it’s also fruitless. Disc will be the last collector’s format. Digital HD is not growing anywhere near what the industry desire. It was only showing 5% percent growth at the end of the year I understand and it might even be flat now due to a poor start to the year. The people have spoken, they want subscription and collectors (who actually crave quality) have disc. Like ITunes music downloads, Digital HD is destined to become the unloved child of this generation. We wouldn’t even have a Digital to buy market if it wasn’t for people scrounging for codes.
Digital has no value when you can get either higher quality or a buffet of entertainment on Netflix or Amazon. That’s why it’s cheaper. Once disc is gone, people won’t pay good prices for Digital HD. It just won’t happen. So you guys really should be hoping disc sticks around lest Digital HD sinks without trace.

As for your other arguments. What utter nonsense.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Zu Nim

And you also lost access to them. You don't lose access to digital. Different strokes.



Generally once you spend it the cost is sunk. You may recover some of the cost down the line but if you never sell the disc then the two are the same. Most discs sell for a fraction of their cost (if you can offload them) and you're not factoring in the value of your own time. Also, if you're holding on to the discs for a relatively short period you'd probably be better off using Redbox.

You don’t lose access to Digital? Try telling that to folk in other countries.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Zu Nim

Usually proactive customer service is a good thing but in this case for this customer it wasn't.

Apple has no control over the content on their store so they wouldn't be sure if the issue could be resolved in a timely manner. If they leave the movie in the customer's account and it hasn't been corrected before the refund window closes then it becomes a headache for the customer and Apple. Apple can't fix it and the customer can't get their money back. (And they won't proactively remove it from a customer's library if it's outside the refund window.)

I see that point, but how fast does that window realistically close in most instances? They can't just reply to the customer's inquiry, offer a refund, and give a deadline by which the customer has to respond to receive it, rather than just immediately taking away the title and giving their money back without first offering it up as an option?

If it's that worrisome, download the iTunes movie and store it locally. Then it won't matter if it's removed.

And that is a good option in theory. But if someone buys A LOT of movies digitally, then that's a lot of data to store(and they'll probably want to have more than one back up as extra "insurance") to make sure that they don't run into the problem with any title down the road, and hope that there are never any DRM issues that prevent the downloaded files from being played in the future.

No one alive today will live in perpetuity. Perpetuity doesn't matter.

I get that no one "lives forever," but my point is that as long as they are alive, they should be able to access the content that they've paid for, and that's not necessarily guaranteed. At least within the length of a person's lifetime, perpetuity DOES matter. If someone buys a movie today and lives for another 40 years, then having access to that movie removed 10 years from now would be a big problem, especially if they can't rebuy it.

Licensing issues have caused problems like this for decades. It took a long time for music to get everything together as it entered the CD age and movies have had the similar issues. If the rights weren't negotiated originally they have to be renegotiated. That's not unique to digital.

I understand that. I even aknowledged in my previous post that such deals ending is likely why the movie is out of print on physical media, too. The difference is that if someone REALLY wants the movie, there are ways to obtain the previously released physical versions. If it has never been released digitally, or was and then was taken down for future sales, then at that point it cannot be obtained until when/if it gets re-released.

The idea that the Weinsteins are too busy to deal with Dogma is probably not the right way to think about it. An unreleased movie generates no income, and the Weinsteins need money. They have been actively selling assets. The harder they get squeezed the sooner it will come loose. So I suspect Dogma gets rereleased sooner rather than later.

And in terms of the movie getting re-released in some form, I hope you are right. But the current issues within their lives likely can get in the way of that. It's not like they don't have other streams of income.

A movie's rights being owned directly by specific individual people and not buy a studio, generally speaking, is a relatively unique situation. While that is good news in the sense that situations like this are the exception and not the rule, it does cause concern for those titles that fall into an exception such as this.

It's like you're telling a commercial fisherman to not worry if they stop selling fishing vessels because they can always buy a yacht. Or a dinghy. A dinghy isn't the best boat but it's better than not fishing at all.

Options that don't fit most people's needs (too expensive, poor quality) aren't options at all. If the average person's disc broke they're simply not going to replace it. For them a $70 copy of Dogma might as well not exist.

That's an extreme comparison.

I'm not saying that the options are perfect and fit all individual preferences ("needs" isn't really the right word to use, since technically no one "needs" to watch movies to live in the first place).

While buying a copy of the movie on Blu-Ray now will likely cost more than when it was widely available and in print, as I stated, there are options in the $30-$40 range, which is a realistic amount of money for most people to come up with, especially anyone who buys movies regularly anyway. Whether or not they want to spend that much or find it worth it is up to them.I would imagine most people who REALLY want the movie would be willing to pay that if the alternative is not having access to it at all. The $70+ options tend to be unopened copies. If a used copy is in good condition, given the price difference, most people who would just open the sealed copy anyway will likely just opt for one that's already been opened.

That's more like the fisherman having to buy a used boat within the size and range that he would normally use rather than brand new to stay in business. Most aren't going to scoff at that.

And a standard definition DVD may be far from the ideal choice, but in a world where a lot of people settle for "good enough" anyway, it's better than nothing.

But we have numerous cases where a company exits the line of business and either transfers the licenses to another company or refunds the customers.

I understand that. I'm not saying that the licenses/rights never transfer or rarely do. But IMO the number of cases where it does transfer being more numerous than the cases where a title does not transfer over/remains access does not justify the occasions where these problems do happen.

If someone simply wants to have access to the title, then getting a refund isn't going to help with that. Yes, it's better than losing access to the title AND not getting a refund, but simply throwing money at the person who loses access to the film isn't that much of a consolation if they really want that movie and now cannot get it back.

No, it's really not. You have a movie that hasn't made it to digital distribution yet and it's physical distribution has ended. That has happened with every format shift. It doesn't invalidate the shift or we'd all still be watching DVDs because so much didn't transition to Blu-ray.

A lot of people, even those who generally care about quality, still own and watch DVDs of content not available on Blu-Ray or in HD at all. Watching a movie on DVD may not be the optimal way to experience it, but it's better than having no option to watch it at all.

So the same situation as if a disc was lost, stolen or damaged.

Physical media may be able to get lost, damaged, or stolen by a random 3rd party. But to my knowledge, no one who has ever legitimately bought a piece of physical media and taken it home has later had it literally taken away from them by the studio, distributor, or the retailer that they bought it from after the fact.

Buying discs over digital is not going to change the distribution issues for Dogma.

With statements like this, I can only assume that either you have somehow managed to completely miss the the very clear and simple overall point that I was making about the benefits of physical media over digital media in a situation like this, or you are being intentionally obtuse. Either way, you don't come off looking good if you can't acknowledge my points head on and instead try to skirt around them like this.

Of course buying physical over digital is not going to change the distribution issues of Dogma or any other movie that finds itself in a similar scenario.

My entire point is that when a movie ends up being out of print/unavailable due to some kind of distribution issues, the physical copies that were previously released are still out there and can be obtained by someone who really wants it. Obviously how supply and demand effects the price will be a factor, and whether or not someone buys it under those circumstances will be based on a combination of how badly they want the movie, how much it costs, and their ability and willingness to buy it within that price range. But at the very least, someone who either never bought the movie in the first place or had their copy lost/damaged/stolen have a way to obtain it.

A film that has never been released digitally or has been removed from digital sale does absolutely no good to anyone who wants to buy it after that has occurred, or loses access to their previous purchase and cannot replace it due it being delisted for sale. To reference your fisherman scenario, this would be the equivalent of him having no access to any kind of boat at all what so ever.

I look forward to reading your presumably lengthy list of titles that have been stolen from customers.

I have very much acknowledged that situations like this are the exception and not the rule. I made that clear in my last post. Again, either you missed a very simple, easy to understand point that I made, or you are being purposely obtuse.

My point is that even a small handful of titles being effected by this IS still a big problem. The "it's only one" or "it's only a few" mentality justifies something that there is no reasonable justification for at all IMO. That's like saying someone breaking into your house and stealing just a few Blu-Rays is okay as long as the majority of your collection is still there.

In moviegeek1992's post that I was replying to, he basically made the assumption that all titles (not most.... but all) would easily be available digitally for purchase and future repurchase should someone lose access to a previous digital purchase, and I've pointed out where that is not necessarily the case for all titles, and provided a solid example to the contrary.

I've never stated or implied that most titles are likely to fall into distribution issues akin to the situation with Dogma now. My point is that for the titles that do, physical versions can still be obtained after the fact and digital versions cannot.

I don't know how much clearer I can make this. Shall I explain in detail to you why 1+1=2?

[SarahS]

Originally Posted by PCFan

One negative with digital (including digital games) is that you can't resell a digital purchase. There is less of a feeling of ownership with digital as you are more restricted with digital.

Stop with that silliness right now. They give you crap for your used BD's....nada, hardly anything.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by SarahS

Stop with that silliness right now. They give you crap for your used BD's....nada, hardly anything.

Depends on the title. Some boutique collectors editions get quite a bit.

[Indy64]

Very true. Even if you paid $25 for a disc and walked in that same day to a used DVD/Blu store to re-sell it, you'd be lucky to get $5. Especially if it's just another vanilla mainstream movie.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Indy64

Very true. Even if you paid $25 for a disc and walked in that same day to a used DVD/Blu store to re-sell it, you'd be lucky to get $5. Especially if it's just another vanilla mainstream movie.

£5 more than you get with digital.

[SarahS]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

£5 more than you get with digital.

you wont even get 5....yes you can resell Criterions for 15 dollars on ebay all day long but unless its a Criterion or an OOP title you are getting squat. In fact places like movie trading company or half price books wont even give you 3 dollars for a run of the mill BD catalog title...more like 1 to two dollars. I know I have sold off my entire 2000+ BD collection and the only ones I have kept are the ones still not available on digital as of yet. Of course I don't know why I just don't sell those as well because my chances in this day and age of actually going to a shelf pulling a disc and placing it into a player to watch is practically 1 million to 1 against.