Halloween 4K UHD (1978)

[Christian Muth]

Originally Posted by BobSimms

I’m assuming you’re making a distinction between mag reels and the finished optical track? I’m not talking about going back to the original mag reels (what I believe JCR82 was calling “tapes”) that they initially used to merge the audio with video in the editing room. Why wouldn’t the first (or other early) generation optical track be accessible? Isn’t that what every restoration house & home video label accesses when rescanning/restoring a 35mm film in HD/2K/4K? Where do the original soundtracks come from whenever, say, Vinegar Syndrome performs a brand new scan?

I don’t understand why this particular element of a new Halloween resto is being made out to be a bridge too far. As you said, we know the sound exists; if SF could construct a new Atmos track (again—using which elements, exactly?) why couldn’t they extract the original mono from somewhere and treat it better than it was treated 20+ years ago? Clearly I’m missing something, I just don’t know what.

Edited to add: I was confusing the optical track, which contains the final mix of the soundtrack with its various elements inextricably linked, and the mag reels. Evidently the mag reels are what Howarth accessed for the 2018 mono vinyl soundtrack. My question, ‘Why isn’t the original optical track accessible?’ still stands.

The optical negative would be the fully mixed track, with dialogue/music/effects all blended together. I doubt these are "unavailable", but they wouldn't be optimal for use, because optical tracks by their very nature are lesser quality that mag tracks. 35mm mag track is a VERY high-quality analog sound format. To put this into perspective, the highest quality analog "tape" master formats usually run at 15 IPS (inches per second). 35mm mag track runs at 18 IPS. It's EXTREMELY high quality if well preserved. The sound off the SUSPIRIA 35mm DME magnetic stems was stunning, for example, which is why the original 4.0 stereo and Dolby Atmos remixes on the Synapse SUSPIRIA releases sound so good.

Chris

[Geoff D]

Yeah, the question is not so much "why isn't the optical track accessible?" but rather "why would you use the optical track at all when you can use the mag tracks?". Think of the mag reels as the "negative" of the audio while the optical track is like a "print", i.e. you can use the latter if you've got nothing left but for the best fidelity to the source you'd use the former. Still needs diligent handling by people with taste and hopefully knowledge of what it should've sounded like, but as with using camera negative for transfer of visuals we've gone through that looking glass when it comes to what the 'intent' should be.

(Though I will say that I was stunned by the quality of the restored optical mono on Dawn of the Dead. I had the same reaction when I learned it was gonna be the optical track, like "can you not access the DMEs or whatever?", but when I heard it, wow.)

[BobSimms]

Thanks for the clarification, guys. It was a bit difficult to accept this idea that somehow a usable original first generation or early generation copy of the mono mix was “lost” or otherwise inaccessible to a company that’s already been granted use of a film’s elements, or that it would need to be reconstructed for some reason. Because if new passes are done on the original soundtracks for far more obscure films, and by smaller boutique labels all the time (and they are, with just about any BD release you can name), why would that be impossible here? Why are we essentially doing mental gymnastics to imagine why Shout hasn’t done it?

Whenever I read the short paragraphs about the restoration of soundtracks that, say, Criterion does (or Arrow, or Indicator, or whoever) on original soundtracks, they mention ‘clicks, pops, thumps, hiss’, etc., which to me sound like they’re working with optical tracks, because those aren’t characteristics I associate with the oxide on magnetic tape. From what I’ve read, those characteristics are typical of old optical tracks. Maybe that’s not the case, though, and mag reels, through overuse and abuse or some odd thing, do suffer from clicks, pops, thumps, etc. Is every blu ray label and restoration house going back to the mag reels when they do a new pass & restoration work on a soundtrack (because I don’t get that impression), or are they using optical tracks from the earliest generation finished product?

[JCRW82]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Yeah, the question is not so much "why isn't the optical track accessible?" but rather "why would you use the optical track at all when you can use the mag tracks?". Think of the mag reels as the "negative" of the audio while the optical track is like a "print", i.e. you can use the latter if you've got nothing left but for the best fidelity to the source you'd use the former. Still needs diligent handling by people with taste and hopefully knowledge of what it should've sounded like, but as with using camera negative for transfer of visuals we've gone through that looking glass when it comes to what the 'intent' should be.

(Though I will say that I was stunned by the quality of the restored optical mono on Dawn of the Dead. I had the same reaction when I learned it was gonna be the optical track, like "can you not access the DMEs or whatever?", but when I heard it, wow.)

Spot on, just from a little digging it appears that both of these audio sources (optical & mag tracks) are still readily available and have been recently used with a great sounding result (40th Anniversary Vinyl). It shows that Shout Factory have not bothered to obtain the best audio resource available to them, and it should have been a no brainer decision to go back to the Original 35mm Magnetic Master Mono Soundtrack to get the best sounding results. I would imagine Death Waltz Recording requested permission from Trancas International's Films to use the Mag Tapes and got the approval. Shouldn't it be easier for SF to do the same thing, especially since they have to go that route to obtain the OCN reels to perform the 4K video scans?

I'm not sure what sources they would need to create the Atmos mix but I would think the Original 35mm Magnetic Master Mono Soundtrack would be beneficial to this process, especially if they are going back to scratch. If they ultimately decided on using a 3rd generation (or lower) source for the mono mix, then I would guess they are just going to go back to the stems that Chace Productions created over 20 years ago and try to tweak audio content that has already been tampered with. Ultimately I think the budget went more towards the video restoration (it can't be cheap to hire Dean Cundey).

[Kyle15]

Originally Posted by JCRW82

Spot on, just from a little digging it appears that both of these audio sources (optical & mag tracks) are still readily available and have been recently used with a great sounding result (40th Anniversary Vinyl). It shows that Shout Factory have not bothered to obtain the best audio resource available to them, and it should have been a no brainer decision to go back to the Original 35mm Magnetic Master Mono Soundtrack to get the best sounding results. I would imagine Death Waltz Recording requested permission from Trancas International's Films to use the Mag Tapes and got the approval. Shouldn't it be easier for SF to do the same thing, especially since they have to go that route to obtain the OCN reels to perform the 4K video scans?

Personally I feel either they asked and Trancas said no because "it's already done" i.e. the filtered audio track. OR, Shout deemed it unnecessary because again, it's already been scanned and available for use. Another box to check and narrow down work. Which if they got a no the first go around that's unfortunate, but if they never bothered it's incredibly oh-boy on their part.

[Geoff D]

Aye. Not everyone's overthinking the reason why Shout did/didn't restore the mono, as it's quite simple: people didn't complain en masse about them using that mono on their previous BD so why not just re-use the same master, even if they're using the stems to create the new Atmos mix?

Maybe if we'd learned it was the exact same mono as before then complaints could've gotten in early enough and Shout could've course-corrected, but I feel it's too late. However, I'll reiterate that I'll be happy to have a nerfed mono in lieu of no mono at all. It'll be a laugh if the new Atmos mix is like a super-faithful remix and wasn't built atop the existing multi-channel mix though!

[mad_max2000]

If that's the case and the mag tapes are still available to be sourced for a better sounding mono track, then that is extremely disappointing. I would have preferred having no Atmos track to not having a restored mono track.

Since there has been no direct word from anyone at Scream! who is in charge of producing the release (Cliff MacMillan or Jeff Nelson), and the only responses we've had have been from customer service reps, I'm still holding out a sliver of hope that perhaps they were able to find a better source than the heavily filtered mono track from prior releases.

It will be extremely disappointing if it turns out to be the same filtered to oblivion track from before, but I'll reserve final judgement until the discs are in hand.

[BobSimms]

Originally Posted by Kyle15

Personally I feel either they asked and Trancas said no because "it's already done" i.e. the filtered audio track. OR, Shout deemed it unnecessary because again, it's already been scanned and available for use. Another box to check and narrow down work. Which if they got a no the first go around that's unfortunate, but if they never bothered it's incredibly oh-boy on their part.

What reason would Trancas have to say no? Shout is already going back to the OCN for a fresh 4K scan, why would the soundtrack be off-limits? Again, soundtrack restoration happens all the time. This is a major cash-cow and Shout Factory is not a mom-and-pop shoestring operation. It’s clear that the original sound elements exist, and are usable and accessible to anyone who is licensing the film. GeoffD is correct and so are you at the end there—it’s Shout doing their thing, again.

However, I'll reiterate that I'll be happy to have a nerfed mono in lieu of no mono at all.

+1.

Originally Posted by JCRW82

Ultimately I think the budget went more towards the video restoration

and the slip box art, let’s not forget.

[JCRW82]

Originally Posted by mad_max2000

If that's the case and the mag tapes are still available to be sourced for a better sounding mono track, then that is extremely disappointing. I would have preferred having no Atmos track to not having a restored mono track.

Since there has been no direct word from anyone at Scream! who is in charge of producing the release (Cliff MacMillan or Jeff Nelson), and the only responses we've had have been from customer service reps, I'm still holding out a sliver of hope that perhaps they were able to find a better source than the heavily filtered mono track from prior releases.

It will be extremely disappointing if it turns out to be the same filtered to oblivion track from before, but I'll reserve final judgement until the discs are in hand.

Yep, there's always the outside chance that SF Customer Service are misinformed about the audio source used. Their replies have been pretty generic and copy/paste by taking words from customer inquiries and adding them in the reply. Won't be too much longer for the first reviews to come in for the new release, the downside is the pro reviews will put a more heavy focus on the new Atmos Mix over the original mono track other than a quick word that the original mix was included for purist reasons.

[Kyle15]

Originally Posted by BobSimms

What reason would Trancas have to say no? Shout is already going back to the OCN for a fresh 4K scan, why would the soundtrack be off-limits? Again, soundtrack restoration happens all the time. This is a major cash-cow and Shout Factory is not a mom-and-pop shoestring operation. It’s clear that the original sound elements exist, and are usable and accessible to anyone who is licensing the film. GeoffD is correct and so are you at the end there—it’s Shout doing their thing, again.

Sometimes these groups limit access to materials because they don't want them to be continuously handled. IF they said no, it's as I said; the material has already been scanned and exists and that would be their reasoning to say no. It was last accessed for the standalone soundtrack.

However, I do think it's more likely Shout didn't bother though because they already have the soundtrack regardless of how filtered it is as that practice is so common.

[Vixen of the Night]

I'm syncing up the Criterion Mono mix to the 2014 transfer as we speak. It's a thing of beauty. I'm so excited to hear the powerful original mix in all it's glory again. The music/audio is a major part of the films power, since it's all atmosphere. And when filtered to to hell like the current mix. It loses it's punch.

I knew something seemed lacking in all my attempts at watching the prior DVD/BD releases. I thought maybe I was just getting older and was desensitized to the movie scaring the crap out of me vs when I was a kid.

Well, just hearing the stinger effect when Laurie is dropping off the keys at the Myer's house gave me chills and made me stand on edge for a moment. YES!

I'll definitely make a comparison video for Youtube when I'm finished rendering it(I'll have to make sure it is in sync first, which will take some trial and error time in between my work schedule).

[oceanicflight_815]

Originally Posted by Vixen of the Night

I'm syncing up the Criterion Mono mix to the 2014 transfer as we speak. It's a thing of beauty. I'm so excited to hear the powerful original mix in all it's glory again. The music/audio is a major part of the films power, since it's all atmosphere. And when filtered to to hell like the current mix. It loses it's punch.

I knew something seemed lacking in all my attempts at watching the prior DVD/BD releases. I thought maybe I was just getting older and was desensitized to the movie scaring the crap out of me vs when I was a kid.

Well, just hearing the stinger effect when Laurie is dropping off the keys at the Myer's house gave me chills and made me stand on edge for a moment. YES!

I'll definitely make a comparison video for Youtube when I'm finished rendering it(I'll have to make sure it is in sync first, which will take some trial and error time in between my work schedule).

Any chance you would be willing to PM a link to download the Criterion Mono?

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by JCRW82

Yep, there's always the outside chance that SF Customer Service are misinformed about the audio source used. Their replies have been pretty generic and copy/paste by taking words from customer inquiries and adding them in the reply. Won't be too much longer for the first reviews to come in for the new release, the downside is the pro reviews will put a more heavy focus on the new Atmos Mix over the original mono track other than a quick word that the original mix was included for purist reasons.

Yep. Most reviews won't even acknowledge the mono outside of listing the audio specs and if they do, they'll just say that they defaulted to the Atmos mix for the main review anyway.

[DR Herbert West]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

However, I'll reiterate that I'll be happy to have a nerfed mono in lieu of no mono at all.

^ This

[steel_breeze]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

However, I'll reiterate that I'll be happy to have a nerfed mono in lieu of no mono at all.

Originally Posted by DR Herbert West

^ This

^ These

[crutzulee]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

It'll be a laugh if the new Atmos mix is like a super-faithful remix and wasn't built atop the existing multi-channel mix though!

I know that I'm the only one on this entire planet that is hoping for this.

I know that you are the most respected guy on this forum with respect to your take on video ( with good reason) and I am the most ignored poster on the forum ( with equally good reason) but I'm curious what kind of sound setup you have.

[Croweyes1121]

Originally Posted by crutzulee

I know that I'm the only one on this entire planet that is hoping for this.

I know that you are the most respected guy on this forum with respect to your take on video ( with good reason) and I am the most ignored poster on the forum ( with equally good reason) but I'm curious what kind of sound setup you have.

Hey, I’m hoping beyond hope that the Atmos mix is super faithful, too. I’m all for the original sound mix, but I have no issue with surround mixes IF THEY’RE FAITHFUL. Trouble is, Halloween’s surround mixes have always been absolutely horrible.

[KubrickKurasawa]

Originally Posted by RustinCohle

You know it's KurOsawa, right?

Originally Posted by jayman3

Guys. His daughter worked 79 hours this week. She can totally afford the set.

Originally Posted by Kyle15

I feel like this is the most likely scenario. Everyone should keep in mind filtered audio tracks are atypical to the point of being standard. If it fits the bill as the original mono, it's already been "restored" and is thusly available as-is. If there's a point in the project that's already done it's already done.

They don't want to sell it. It's cool guys I got you.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by crutzulee

I know that I'm the only one on this entire planet that is hoping for this.

I know that you are the most respected guy on this forum with respect to your take on video ( with good reason) and I am the most ignored poster on the forum ( with equally good reason) but I'm curious what kind of sound setup you have.

I don't.

[mar3o]

Originally Posted by JCRW82

Spot on, just from a little digging it appears that both of these audio sources (optical & mag tracks) are still readily available and have been recently used with a great sounding result (40th Anniversary Vinyl). It shows that Shout Factory have not bothered to obtain the best audio resource available to them, and it should have been a no brainer decision to go back to the Original 35mm Magnetic Master Mono Soundtrack to get the best sounding results. I would imagine Death Waltz Recording requested permission from Trancas International's Films to use the Mag Tapes and got the approval. Shouldn't it be easier for SF to do the same thing, especially since they have to go that route to obtain the OCN reels to perform the 4K video scans?

I'm not sure what sources they would need to create the Atmos mix but I would think the Original 35mm Magnetic Master Mono Soundtrack would be beneficial to this process, especially if they are going back to scratch. If they ultimately decided on using a 3rd generation (or lower) source for the mono mix, then I would guess they are just going to go back to the stems that Chace Productions created over 20 years ago and try to tweak audio content that has already been tampered with. Ultimately I think the budget went more towards the video restoration (it can't be cheap to hire Dean Cundey).

I've said may times that Shout releases have a history of audio problems. They don't seem to focus on audio sadly. Even their fixed version of Black Christmas has sync problems with 2 of the 3 included audio options. That's inexcusable, as I can't fathom for instance Vinegar Syndrome or Synapse putting out a fixed version of a disc for some reason and it still having issues that they missed the second time. Shout is just too sloppy.