Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by alchav21

I have a degree from San Jose State, Retired from AT&T with 31 years, also in the Army 4 years went to Flight School came out a Warrant Officer, sent to Vietnam in '69. So by your definition I should be an "Expert" in something.

Perhaps in something, but not most of what you talk about in this thread.

In that regard, the only thing you are an expert in is word-barf.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by alchav21

I have a degree from San Jose State, Retired from AT&T with 31 years, also in the Army 4 years went to Flight School came out a Warrant Officer, sent to Vietnam in '69. So by your definition I should be an "Expert" in something. ... My contention is, Bit Streaming from Disc or Server is basically the same.

It sounds as if you have done very well for yourself. Thank you for your military service, especially as a veteran who served in a combat zone. I am a veteran of the U.S. Army also, but I was never sent in harm's way. My service does not even compare, but it is why I can respect yours so much.

Again, though, you are misusing the word streaming. Data transferred from a disc to a display is completely independent of any network or the internet; neither are needed because the data is on the disc. The data transfer from a disc is constant and stable, never subjected to the varying nature of an internet connection.

Retrieving data from a remote server requires the internet and is therefore dramatically different than simply transferring data from a disc. So much more is necessary for streaming to be accomplished: you need a home network and a robust and stable internet connection in order to stream content.

As someone who lives in a rural area with unreliable internet service, the nearly always reliable data transfer from an optical disc is vastly preferred to the vagaries of my ISP's unpredictable performance.

On paper, I have enough down download and upload speed to stream anything, 80/6, but my ISP can not maintain a constant connection; their connection graph looks like a roller coaster with high peaks and deep valleys across the entire graph.

With discs, I do not have to endure changing resolutions and the buffering delays due to my internet cutting in and out. I am quality motivated and I value a consistent viewing experience and where I live only data transfer from a disc delivers both.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

It's difficult to analyze the streams (due to the DRM), but there are indeed signs that recent improvements on the streams unfortunately do not carry over to the downloads (yet?). It started with DD+ 7.1 audio support only being available on streams. There are also reports of not just 4K, but also HD streams having significantly higher bitrates now (e.g. here), and rumors that they may be switching to H.265 even for 1080p in some scenarios.

Did a little more digging using the developer HUD on the ATV. I switched the ATV to 1080p/SDR output and tested a number of movies. The streamed bitrates are consistently higher than those of downloaded files. Even TV shows stream with those higher bitrates. As an example, I'm attaching the HUD output from the pilot episode of Almost Human at around the same playback position, both when streaming and when playing the downloaded file via Homesharing. The downloaded file shows the old iTunes bitrate of ~5 Mbps, whereas the streamed version shows an average bitrate of 13-14 Mbps, as well as a different codec identifier.

I hope they'll make the upgraded video available for download at some point too, but I'm not too optimistic.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

Did a little more digging using the developer HUD on the ATV. I switched the ATV to 1080p/SDR output and tested a number of movies. The streamed bitrates are consistently higher than those of downloaded files. Even TV shows stream with those higher bitrates. As an example, I'm attaching the HUD output from the pilot episode of Almost Human at around the same playback position, both when streaming and when playing the downloaded file via Homesharing. The downloaded file shows the old iTunes bitrate of ~5 Mbps, whereas the streamed version shows an average bitrate of 13-14 Mbps, as well as a different codec identifier.

I hope they'll make the upgraded video available for download at some point too, but I'm not too optimistic.

This simply had to happen in prep for their subscription service next year. Anyone on regular broadband rather than fibre isn’t going to put up with several minutes of buffering before a tv show or film begins on a buffet service. I know this to be the case because I had that problem before I upgraded to fibre. Apple TV is very dependant on not only a fast connection but a solid one too. You would be surprised how many people suffer drop outs on a regular basis.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

This simply had to happen in prep for their subscription service next year. Anyone on regular broadband rather than fibre isn’t going to put up with several minutes of buffering before a tv show or film begins on a buffet service.

What are you even talking about?

You would be surprised how many people suffer drop outs on a regular basis.

I'm sure you have rock-solid statistics showing this.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

What are you even talking about?
I'm sure you have rock-solid statistics showing this.

You were talking about improved codecs and higher bit rate ITunes films and tv shows weren’t you? In other words, recent improvements? Is that not the case?

I was saying Apple are probably prepping for their subscription service which is coming 2019. What is difficult to understand about that?

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

Did a little more digging using the developer HUD on the ATV. I switched the ATV to 1080p/SDR output and tested a number of movies. The streamed bitrates are consistently higher than those of downloaded files. Even TV shows stream with those higher bitrates. As an example, I'm attaching the HUD output from the pilot episode of Almost Human at around the same playback position, both when streaming and when playing the downloaded file via Homesharing. The downloaded file shows the old iTunes bitrate of ~5 Mbps, whereas the streamed version shows an average bitrate of 13-14 Mbps, as well as a different codec identifier.

I hope they'll make the upgraded video available for download at some point too, but I'm not too optimistic.

Originally Posted by Steedeel

This simply had to happen in prep for their subscription service next year. Anyone on regular broadband rather than fibre isn’t going to put up with several minutes of buffering before a tv show or film begins on a buffet service. I know this to be the case because I had that problem before I upgraded to fibre. Apple TV is very dependant on not only a fast connection but a solid one too. You would be surprised how many people suffer drop outs on a regular basis.

Another thing I keep saying, is that Copper is Obsolete and Fiber will be in great demand. AT&T is ramping up their Gigabit Fiber deployment. Everyone is jumping on the Streaming Video Bandwagon, and there will be a great need for uncapped Bandwidth!

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

You were talking about improved codecs and higher bit rate ITunes films and tv shows weren’t you? In other words, recent improvements? Is that not the case?

Yes. And you made a weird leap to "several minutes of buffering" and a hypothetical subscription service. The fact of the matter is that Apple just bumped the quality of purchased digital content, and not just for 4K.

And no, you don't need fiber to take advantage of this either (I'm on good old copper cable and it works just fine).

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

Yes. And you made a weird leap to "several minutes of buffering" and a hypothetical subscription service. The fact of the matter is that Apple just bumped the quality of purchased digital content, and not just for 4K.

And no, you don't need fiber to take advantage of this either (I'm on good old copper cable and it works just fine).

You don’t need Fibre but Apple TV needs a fast broadband connection. That’s a fact. If not, you will get several minute of buffering with 1080p and even 720p. That’s all I was saying. Apple are probably working on not only better quality but faster buffering. Now that’s not too much of a development to comprehend is it? By the way, the subscription service isn’t hypothetical, Apple have just snapped up a heap of shows in preparation I understand.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Another thing I keep saying, is that Copper is Obsolete and Fiber will be in great demand. AT&T is ramping up their Gigabit Fiber deployment. Everyone is jumping on the Streaming Video Bandwagon, and there will be a great need for uncapped Bandwidth!

The same people who are interested in Digital? Nah, I don’t buy that. Most will be happy with 720p. Quality is not a concern.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

What are you even talking about?
I'm sure you have rock-solid statistics showing this.

I don’t need rock solid stats. Just go on a UK forum for one of the big three suppliers in this country. Tens of thousands of people have issues with broadband suppliers. It wasn’t meant to be a solid stat, just a observation but if you want to be a (In my opinion) dick about it? Up to you.

[whipnet]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Another thing I keep saying, is that Copper is Obsolete and Fiber will be in great demand. AT&T is ramping up their Gigabit Fiber deployment. Everyone is jumping on the Streaming Video Bandwagon, and there will be a great need for uncapped Bandwidth!

Do you get paid every time you state this? I might have to start flagging this as spam.

*

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

You don’t need Fibre but Apple TV needs a fast broadband connection. That’s a fact.

It depends on what you mean by "fast". The average in the US is now over 20 Mbps, which is perfectly fine for iTunes content. And, BTW, Internet access here is dominated by cable (around 65% market share), which can provide bitrates up to several hundred Mbps, i.e. more than enough for any video streaming service.

If not, you will get several minute of buffering with 1080p and even 720p. That’s all I was saying. Apple are probably working on not only better quality but faster buffering.

The Apple TV has had a "quick start" option (which is a form of adaptive streaming) for over a year now, long before the recent quality bump.

Now that’s not too much of a development to comprehend is it?

Originally Posted by Steedeel

The same people who are interested in Digital? Nah, I don’t buy that. Most will be happy with 720p. Quality is not a concern.

Originally Posted by Steedeel

but if you want to be a (In my opinion) dick about it? Up to you.

Look who's talking.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

It depends on what you mean by "fast". The average in the US is now over 20 Mbps, which is perfectly fine for iTunes content. And, BTW, Internet access here is dominated by cable (around 65% market share), which can provide bitrates up to several hundred Mbps, i.e. more than enough for any video streaming service.
The Apple TV has had a "quick start" option (which is a form of adaptive streaming) for over a year now, long before the recent quality bump.


Look who's talking.

It’s just being honest. Quality isn’t a concern.

[PCFan]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

Did a little more digging using the developer HUD on the ATV. I switched the ATV to 1080p/SDR output and tested a number of movies. The streamed bitrates are consistently higher than those of downloaded files. Even TV shows stream with those higher bitrates. As an example, I'm attaching the HUD output from the pilot episode of Almost Human at around the same playback position, both when streaming and when playing the downloaded file via Homesharing. The downloaded file shows the old iTunes bitrate of ~5 Mbps, whereas the streamed version shows an average bitrate of 13-14 Mbps, as well as a different codec identifier.

I hope they'll make the upgraded video available for download at some point too, but I'm not too optimistic.

This is not good for me, because I depend heavily on downloading my purchased movies and TV shows from the iTunes store instead of streaming them due to my unstable internet connection. I don't understand why Apple won't use the same bit-rate for downloads as streaming. Is it like this for every movie in iTunes? I originally thought that iTunes was around 5 mbps average bit-rate for streaming 1080p and the downloads were the same bit-rate as well but when I did a visual comparison on scene of a movie i tested through home sharing with streaming it got me wondering if iTunes really is using a higher bit-rate for streaming, and with the example you showed it does seem to be the case. The only reason I'm using iTunes as my digital provider is because of the download option in the iTunes software on my computer for purchased content so that I don't have to rely on an internet connection to watch my purchases.

[Vor4]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

Did a little more digging using the developer HUD on the ATV. I switched the ATV to 1080p/SDR output and tested a number of movies. The streamed bitrates are consistently higher than those of downloaded files. Even TV shows stream with those higher bitrates. As an example, I'm attaching the HUD output from the pilot episode of Almost Human at around the same playback position, both when streaming and when playing the downloaded file via Homesharing. The downloaded file shows the old iTunes bitrate of ~5 Mbps, whereas the streamed version shows an average bitrate of 13-14 Mbps, as well as a different codec identifier.

I hope they'll make the upgraded video available for download at some point too, but I'm not too optimistic.

Originally Posted by PCFan

This is not good, at least for me, because I depend heavily on downloading my purchased movies and TV shows from the iTunes store instead of streaming them due to my unstable internet connection. I don't understand why Apple won't use the same bit-rate for downloads as streaming. I originally thought that iTunes was around 5 mbps average bit-rate for streaming 1080p and the downloads were the same bit-rate as well but when I did a visual comparison on scene of a movie i tested through home sharing with streaming it got me wondering if iTunes really is using a higher bit-rate for streaming, and with the example you showed it does seem to be the case. The only reason I'm using iTunes as my digital provider is because of the download option for purchased content so that I don't have to rely on an internet connection to watch my purchases.

What I think the reason why the streamed versions get a higher bitrate than the downloaded version has to do with the buffer in the ATV4k and it uses Apple's proprietary advanced video/audio codec in the ATV4k. The downloaded version uses a codec that is not as complex and it uses a lot less hard drive space then the streaming version.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by PCFan

This is not good for me, because I depend heavily on downloading my purchased movies and TV shows from the iTunes store instead of streaming them due to my unstable internet connection. I don't understand why Apple won't use the same bit-rate for downloads as streaming.

I guess it's because they want the downloaded files to stay compatible with older iOS devices and the ATV3. Maybe they will introduce a new quality tier in iTunes that only works on newer devices (just like now you can chose between 720p/1080p downloads in the iTunes preferences, and there is even still an option for high-/low-quality SD formats for old iPods). But I suspect it doesn't have high priority for them since streaming is more important at this point.

Is it like this for every movie in iTunes?

I tested a handful of movies and the one TV show and they all had higher streaming bitrates.

I originally thought that iTunes was around 5 mbps average bit-rate for streaming 1080p and the downloads were the same bit-rate as well

That was the case until recently.

I'll try to do a subjective quality comparison at some point, but it is not easy since I don't have two equal displays that I could use side by side, and switching back and forth on one ATV takes a while, making it difficult to compare directly.

The only reason I'm using iTunes as my digital provider is because of the download option in the iTunes software on my computer for purchased content so that I don't have to rely on an internet connection to watch my purchases.

Well, strictly speaking you don't lose anything, but I agree it would be nice if downloaders could take advantage of the potential quality upgrade.

[Vor4]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

I guess it's because they want the downloaded files to stay compatible with older iOS devices and the ATV3. Maybe they will introduce a new quality tier in iTunes that only works on newer devices (just like now you can chose between 720p/1080p downloads in the iTunes preferences, and there is even still an option for high-/low-quality SD formats for old iPods). But I suspect it doesn't have high priority for them since streaming is more important at this point.
I tested a handful of movies and the one TV show and they all had higher streaming bitrates.
That was the case until recently.

I'll try to do a subjective quality comparison at some point, but it is not easy since I don't have two equal displays that I could use side by side, and switching back and forth on one ATV takes a while, making it difficult to compare directly.
Well, strictly speaking you don't lose anything, but I agree it would be nice if downloaders could take advantage of the potential quality upgrade.

I just spoke with a senior advisor from iTunes support regarding about the movie and tv shows low bitrate on downloads. She told me that Apple is talking to the studios to provide higher bitrate download files to iTunes. She also told me the reason for the low bitrate on downloads has to with compatibilty on these:
1. Older ios devices
2. Apple TV 1 to 3
3. Most people are still using 10/100 mbps network in their home and using WiFi 802.11 ABGN speeds

Also she mentioned when the new version of iTunes comes out, it would have downloads options from SD quality, HD quality, and Best Available quality (which guarantees the highest possible quality on the device and source).

[moviegeek1992]

Just curious, but I read that 47 Meters Down was originally released on DVD under a different title by Anchor Bay before the decision to give it a theatrical run was made. The DVDs were recalled, but not before certain stores like Target had already sold some copies. The movie was also given a VOD release. So did the people who bought the VOD release have it pulled from their libraries?

[Dustin44]

Originally Posted by moviegeek1992

Just curious, but I read that 47 Meters Down was originally released on DVD under a different title by Anchor Bay before the decision to give it a theatrical run was made. The DVDs were recalled, but not before certain stores like Target had already sold some copies. The movie was also given a VOD release. So did the people who bought the VOD release have it pulled from their libraries?

It was originally going to be called "In the Deep."

Like you said, some places like Target ended up putting some copies up for sale even though they were recalled. So some DVD copies were sold.

But I don't think it was ever released on VOD. I believe the DVD and VOD release date were the same day. So the VOD release was just cancelled, so nobody ever got a chance to buy it on VOD.