HDR heatmaps and torch mode UHDs

[Hedrox]

Originally Posted by Macatouille

I was only counting Marvel movies from Disney. The newest Spider-Man trilogy also has DV grades but those are all Sony releases.

And the french editions of Iron Man and Incredible Hulk, but they're not Disney releases either.

[Macatouille]

Spider-Man (2002)

Mastering display luminance              : min: 0.0050 cd/m2, max: 4000 cd/m2
Maximum Content Light Level              : 9953 cd/m2
Maximum Frame-Average Light Level        : 1478 cd/m2

Heatmaps (Album)

[Show spoiler]

Gamut Visualizations (Album)

[Show spoiler]

HDR10 Plot

[Macatouille]

If you thought people were exaggerating when they said that Sony likes to use a light cannon, well... MaxCLL of 8901 (!) and a MaxFALL of 2370 (!). My highest rated shot came in at 2630:



Strangely enough, there's basically little to no use of the WCG in my shots. So it's just a bright Rec. 709 release, essentially.

[nick4Knight]

Originally Posted by Macatouille

Strangely enough, there's basically little to no use of the WCG in my shots. So it's just a bright Rec. 709 release, essentially.

It makes sense. If you speculate a bit? The mass of Sony 4K that they had prepped well before the format. Mastered, graded 2012-2014 if not some earlier with no set in stone final spec. So the resolution was obvious but the color grading standard was SDR colour (they ended up on BD downrezzed). Still... gross... I'd be curious if not all of those "mastered in 4K" series also had not a hint of WCG: disappointing.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by nick4Knight

It makes sense. If you speculate a bit? The mass of Sony 4K that they had prepped well before the format. Mastered, graded 2012-2014 if not some earlier with no set in stone final spec. So the resolution was obvious but the color grading standard was SDR colour (they ended up on BD downrezzed). Still... gross... I'd be curious if not all of those "mastered in 4K" series also had not a hint of WCG: disappointing.

…except that Sony’s ‘Mastered in 4K’ blurays were supposed to have a wide colour gamut, xvYCC if I remember correctly. So it’s not like the 4K masters from that time weren’t being graded for a wider space, as SDR at the source mastering level isn’t inherently locked to the 709 space, they aim for P3 at the minimum, even 10 years ago. Sure, if Spidey doesn’t have one then it doesn’t have one, but that’s just as likely a decision made now than a decision made back then. Or it could stem from the early DI work done on the film.

List of Sony’s costings to create 4K masters, this is from 2012. Note the references to P3 for the actual master, the 709 trim pass is created downstream when producing the consumer video mastering:

[Mierzwiak]

Originally Posted by nick4Knight

Still... gross... I'd be curious if not all of those "mastered in 4K" series also had not a hint of WCG: disappointing.

The question is: can you tell it's not WCG?

[Macatouille]

Spider-Man 2 (2004)

Mastering display luminance              : min: 0.0050 cd/m2, max: 4000 cd/m2
Maximum Content Light Level              : 4471 cd/m2
Maximum Frame-Average Light Level        : 1007 cd/m2

Heatmaps (Album)

[Show spoiler]

Gamut Visualizations (Album)

[Show spoiler]

HDR10 Plot

[Macatouille]

Significantly toned down from the first movie, even if it's still pretty strong. MaxCLL down from almost 9k to 4k nits and MaxFALL down from 2k to 394 nits.

Brightest highlights from my shots:



With regards to the WCG, there were only two significant instances (both in Rec. 2020 no less):



And then a handful of extremely minor ones, like these:

[trevorlj]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

…except that Sony’s ‘Mastered in 4K’ blurays were supposed to have a wide colour gamut, xvYCC if I remember correctly.

Yeah...I always wondered if it was properly detectable/decodable by devices in the chain. Was surprised when my audio processor actually recognized it the first time I threw a "Mi4K" disc in.



That field normally shows vanilla YCbCr. I guess there is something in the video signal letting the chain know that the disc is xvYCC (at least in theory ).

That's Spider-Man 1 Mi4K BTW...color bit depth is just being padded by my Oppo.

[Mierzwiak]

Originally Posted by trevorlj

That field normally shows vanilla YCbCr. I guess there is something in the video signal letting the chain know that it's xvYCC.

Yup, there was even a small info on my old Panny plasma when I played those Mi4K BD discs.

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Macatouille

I watched this tonight and the ghosts were so bright I couldn't make out any of the details in their face. Just ridiculous.

(This was on an LG C8 without dynamic tone mapping)

Originally Posted by Geoff D

As I've been saying all along the detail is there, but they've more or less taken the range visible in the SDR and boosted it into thousands of nits which is why it's so, so difficult to tone map properly as x tone mapper is expecting thousands of nits of range to go with the thousands of nits of brightness. But the range just doesn't tally.

Originally Posted by Macatouille

Right, that tracks with nissling’s screenshots.

Correct me if I’m wrong but I assume a decent Dolby Vision grade would help rein this in?

Originally Posted by nissling

The grade itself would remain the same, but the additional metadata would probably help out for the tonemap in an extreme case like this.

As for The Dark Knight album, Imgbb doesn't allow me to create a new album with the gamuts and heatmaps as those files are identical to the ones that are already uploaded. Oh well guess I'll link both of them in the post.

Just as a note the built-in tonemapping of the Samsung QN90A nails this scene, details in the ghost faces and everywhere else are rendered well with nothing looking particularly blown out - while also providing the high nits impact intended by the scene.

So it seems this perfectly capable of being rendered with great results in plain old HDR10 if your display has the right blend of hardware capability and software processing.

[Azurfel]

Originally Posted by Macatouille

Strangely enough, there's basically little to no use of the WCG in my shots. So it's just a bright Rec. 709 release, essentially.

DCI-P3 wasn't standardized until the release of Digital Cinema System Specification V1.0 on 2005.07.20, so it is reasonable to expect that most older digital intermediates would have been Rec. 709 (and a at least a few were probably sRGB or Rec. 601). For example, Revenge of the Sith was also entirely within the bounds of Rec. 709 iirc.

I'm curious what a DI that was explicitly graded for the filmout from that era would look like in this regard. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind would probably be a good test case, since we know that Kino's release was scanned from a filmout rather than pulling directly from the DI.

Originally Posted by nick4Knight

It makes sense. If you speculate a bit? The mass of Sony 4K that they had prepped well before the format. Mastered, graded 2012-2014 if not some earlier with no set in stone final spec. So the resolution was obvious but the color grading standard was SDR colour (they ended up on BD downrezzed). Still... gross... I'd be curious if not all of those "mastered in 4K" series also had not a hint of WCG: disappointing.

Rec. 2020 was released 2012.08.23, and that defined the UHD's white point and primaries. It was just the HDR parts that came later.

Given the way xvYCC works, those "Mastered in 4K" Blu-rays *should* display as WCG SDR on a compatible system, even.

[Fjodor2000]

So we're seeing some 4K BDs with extremely high brightness of around 9k MaxCLL and 2k MaxFALL.

I have to wonder:

* Are there really any mastering displays capable of showing those kinda light levels? If not, why boost the brightness that much when the result cannot correctly be judged by those responsible for the production of the 4K BD anyway?

* Not even Geoff D's Sony Light Cannon™ TV is able to display 9k/2k brightness. So those brightness levels will currently not be shown to anyone anyway. But sometime in the future we will have displays capable of 10k nits. So how do we expect these movies to be handled then? Will the viewer be blinded, will they add some "brightness reduction mode" to TVs, or how will it be dealt with?

Please share your thoughts.

[Azurfel]

Originally Posted by Fjodor2000

"brightness reduction mode"

At least some displays will include such an option, yes. 2023 LG OLEDs *already* include one as part of game mode, even (called Dark Room Mode), and they don't get nearly that bright.

[Fjodor2000]

Originally Posted by Azurfel

At least some displays will include such an option, yes. 2023 LG OLEDs *already* include one as part of game mode, even (called Dark Room Mode), and they don't get nearly that bright.

But is that not introduced for a different purpose? The Game Mode is usually described as that it's:

"all about reducing input lag and improving the gaming experience. When enabled, the mode disables your TV's various processing effects, such as motion smoothing and noise reduction, to minimise latency and boost responsiveness."

And lower brightness is part of that, since less brightness mean lower time for the pixel too switch its color?

[Azurfel]

Originally Posted by Fjodor2000

But is that not introduced for a different purpose? The Game Mode is usually described as that it's:

"all about reducing input lag and improving the gaming experience. When enabled, the mode disables your TV's various processing effects, such as motion smoothing and noise reduction, to minimise latency and boost responsiveness."

And lower brightness is part of that, since less brightness mean lower time for the pixel too switch its color?

Oh, sorry, that was poor phrasing on my part. I meant that it's a discrete option in the Game Optimizer called Dark Room Mode meant specifically for those who think the display gets too bright for playing games in a dark room.

[Macatouille]

Originally Posted by Azurfel

DCI-P3 wasn't standardized until the release of Digital Cinema System Specification V1.0 on 2005.07.20, so it is reasonable to expect that most older digital intermediates would have been Rec. 709 (and a at least a few were probably sRGB or Rec. 601). For example, Revenge of the Sith was also entirely within the bounds of Rec. 709 iirc.

I'm curious what a DI that was explicitly graded for the filmout from that era would look like in this regard. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind would probably be a good test case, since we know that Kino's release was scanned from a filmout rather than pulling directly from the DI.

That's good insight. I actually have Eternal Sunshine and can bump it up the list for you.

Going to do Spider-Man 3 tomorrow then Last Jedi on Friday (by request). Next week I have Inglourious Basterds and Out of Sight planned.

[dorian]

Scarface (1983)

MaxCLL plot:

[Show spoiler]

MaxFALL plot:

[Show spoiler]

The following shots are representative of the MLL & FALL peaks, not the averages.

MLL peaks:

[Show spoiler]

FALL peaks:

[Show spoiler]

Gamut Visualisation:

[Show spoiler]

[dorian]

Originally Posted by Mierzwiak

The question is: can you tell it's not WCG?

Exactly. The times I notice a larger gamut is usually when it's gone too far. It's partly why I'm hesitant to post gamut visualisation maps because I feel like I'm contributing the idea that more chromatic = more better. A larger colour gamut should aid in faithfully reproducing aesthetic intent, not showcasing technological advances.

Originally Posted by Fjodor2000

So we're seeing some 4K BDs with extremely high brightness of around 9k MaxCLL and 2k MaxFALL.

I have to wonder:

* Are there really any mastering displays capable of showing those kinda light levels? If not, why boost the brightness that much when the result cannot correctly be judged by those responsible for the production of the 4K BD anyway?

* Not even Geoff D's Sony Light Cannon™ TV is able to display 9k/2k brightness. So those brightness levels will currently not be shown to anyone anyway. But sometime in the future we will have displays capable of 10k nits. So how do we expect these movies to be handled then? Will the viewer be blinded, will they add some "brightness reduction mode" to TVs, or how will it be dealt with?

Please share your thoughts.

There are prototype displays that hit those peaks but I don't think any can surpass 2000 nits full screen. The bigger question is why would you ever want that? These displays are impressive at events where the ambient light overpowers even reasonably bright TVs, but in a home environment would be way too bright.

The argument is that real world reflective and emissive light levels are far brighter, and while that is true, you have to keep in mind that our eyes take time to adapt to different luminance ranges. If you've been outside for a while, thousands of nits are no issue but shut your eyes for a few minutes and see how uncomfortable the light is once you open them. Likewise, scenes in a film can arbitrarily go from an average of 1 nit to hundreds or thousands.

I think 1000 nits is more nits than we'll ever need. Almost all content that exceeds 1000 nits has been clipped in the grading tone curve anyway. I think we can all agree that 1000 nits is bright so why do we need brighter for the sake of brightness?

Even if you put that aside, 10,000 nits would have a significant impact on the lifespan of LEDs and may even require active cooling. I'm glad people are realising that the endeavour for more and more nits, at least for consumer displays, is misguided. We're seeing it with UHDs too. Many of the early UHDs had insanely bright peaks and averages, but now that the novelty has worn off, we're seeing much more reasonable presentations.

[trevorlj]

Originally Posted by dorian

I think we can all agree that 1000 nits is bright so why do we need brighter for the sake of brightness?

I've gone from a Sony Z9D (1600 peak/630 full frame), through a Z8H (2500 peak), and most recently a Z9K (2700 peak/840 full frame). The Z9K finally hits a point where it gets a bit crazy on occasion...and that's all 75" units in a light controlled dedicated theater. It's absolutely amazing to rewatch content with bright highlights on the Z9K. It can be transformative on the particularly bright titles. That said, I (finally) don't really feel like I need more. While most movies are jaw dropping, some have some downright dazzling scenes (and not in a good way). Often, it's full screen white transitions that are simply overcooked but a recent example I watched is the white scene in the original Matrix where Neo gets his history lesson from Morpheus. Quite the eye strain at the start of the scene and overall right on the top edge of enjoyable (something I never even thought about with previous TVs/viewings).

So yeah...I agree that more nits is not always better but I can't agree that the fun stops at 1000 nits or something like 220 nits average. Not after what I've seen.