Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (USE SPOILER TAGS!)

[Geoff D]

That's true enough. It made for one helluva story twist, but Lucas ended up tying his whole damned story into knots trying to make it fit.

[ChainsawJedi]

Originally Posted by kurtlingle

Um, is this the Ep 7 thread, or the OT vs the PT thread?

Seems like my 2 favorite movie series (SW 1-6) and MOS (BvS) are full of this back and forth. And with SW it's been going on for years. Maybe there should be a SW OT vs PT thread?

<\rant-over>

I think it's inevitable that all Star Wars threads end up being prequels vs originals. In this case it's because - broadly speaking - there are fans who want the new films to be like the originals and to distance themselves from the prequels. I think that's going to happen anyway; JJ Abrams seems more concerned with pleasing the OT fans than anything else.

I hope those fans don't end up disappointed with the new films but I strongly suspect otherwise.

Speaking of which, I imagine we've all seen or heard what Kevin Smith has had to say about his experience on the set of Episode VII, that he liked the prequels but they didn't make him feel like a kid again and how, being on the set and seeing how "tactile" everything was has turned him into a child once again and how Episode VII feels like a Star Wars movie. I like Kevin Smith but I can't help but feel that he'd have had exactly the same feelings had he been invited onto the set of the prequels.

[rickantel]

i really hope they do a boba fett movie thats all i give a s#% about

[JavaJulien]

Originally Posted by rickantel

i really hope they do a boba fett movie thats all i give a s#% about

Thanks to retcon Bobba died in Return of the Jedi again.

[Moviefan2k4]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

Logically, Vader should have killed (or attempted to kill) Palpatine right there. Now obviously Vader couldn't have killed Palpatine since he exists in Episode IV. But Lucas could have had Vader attempt to kill Palpatine and Palpatine then overcomes Vader with some Dark Side voodoo which both makes him loyal and destroys some of his memory, which would have made much of the OT make far more sense (like why he doesn't recognize C3PO or R2D2), etc.

Seriously, you need to read the "Revenge of the Sith" novel; there's tons of stuff in there that Lucas cut from the film, but its based on his screenplay. Vader's "resurrection" scene details that when Palpatine said Anakin had killed Padme, the fallen Jedi tried using his Force powers to destroy the Emperor. However, because so much of his body had been compromised, all that happened were droids exploding and the table breaking. There's even an interior monologue, where Vader realizes that the main reason for his fall was ultimately his own selfishness. He recalls that Padme asked him to come with her on Mustafar, but he refused out of a lust for power and control. In that moment, he was more concerned with his own benefit than hers...and they both suffered for it.

[simonynwa]

Originally Posted by Braktastic

Padme should've died after giving birth to the twins as a result of complications from being force choked, but Lucas chickened out, as usual. He was so concerned with trying to make Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader sympathetic he wouldn't go down this road and came up with this "losing the will to live crap" instead.

Agree with what should have happened but don't agree with why. Lucas hadn't chickened out otherwise he wouldn't have had Anakin killing the younglings - that's as unsympathetic as you can get. I think he wanted to make the point that there is still good in Anakin to leave the hook that the OT centres on for Luke, but came up with a really bad and completely unnecessary way of trying to emphasise what was already there.

I think it's inevitable that all Star Wars threads end up being prequels vs originals. In this case it's because - broadly speaking - there are fans who want the new films to be like the originals and to distance themselves from the prequels. I think that's going to happen anyway; JJ Abrams seems more concerned with pleasing the OT fans than anything else.

I think there is a lot of good stuff in the prequels and I think there was an attempt to add more complexity to the characters and the story which I very much appreciated that had it been executed better would have extremely satisfying. Someone mentioned the Star Wars films as fairy tales, there are fairy tale themes especially in the OT but the prequels and their story are nothing like that. A lot of the story points of the fall of the Republic are more based on real history than fairy tales (If you're not with me, you're against me is as close to Lucas commenting on real history at the time as you can get). I hope ultimately Ep VII takes elements of both - if your expanding characters beyond the initial film, there is no point unless you do something different so simply pointing to the OT and asking them to repeat the formula as it is never going to work. I want it to be its own thing. I can't imagine anything worse than constantly riffing on the OT. It sounds like the OT characters may not be the total focus of the next trilogy with EpVII essentially bridging the gap so we will see.

[Jedijake]

The fact that Anakin killed children pretty much made him out to be an un-redeemable monster. Saving your own son doesn't undo having killed a bunch of children.

[Moviefan2k4]

Originally Posted by Jedijake

The fact that Anakin killed children pretty much made him out to be an un-redeemable monster. Saving your own son doesn't undo having killed a bunch of children.

True, but in defeating the Emperor, he also sacrificed his own life. His motivation may have been to save Luke, but he also saved many more lives Palpatine would've either taken himself, or ordered Vader to take. He also provided a sense of closure for the families of Vader's previous victims while under Palpatine's service.

I'm hoping they address what the galaxy now knows about Anakin in "Episode VII", or if Luke revealed the truth to anyone else besides Leia and Han in those thirty years.

[simonynwa]

Originally Posted by Jedijake

The fact that Anakin killed children pretty much made him out to be an un-redeemable monster. Saving your own son doesn't undo having killed a bunch of children.

Or destroying an entire planet either - even in the context of just the OT he was beyond redemption. That's assuming you are associating redemption with just forgiveness as opposed to his capacity to change and do the right thing. It's partly why I think Lucas decided to use Christensen as the Force ghost in Jedi - a clumsy way of trying to say this is the Anakin before he did all those bad things, not the monster he became. Most religions after all preach forgiveness for anything if you are truly sorry for what you have done.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by Jedijake

The fact that Anakin killed children pretty much made him out to be an un-redeemable monster. Saving your own son doesn't undo having killed a bunch of children.

That's why I think people are wrong when they say Anakin is redeemed at the end of Jedi.

He atones. That's not redemption. He atones for his crimes by giving the only thing he has...his life.

[Kryptonic]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

That's why I think people are wrong with they say Anakin is redeemed at the end of Jedi.

He atones. That's not redemption. He atones for his crimes by giving the only thing he has...his life.

It's basically the same thing.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by ChainsawJedi

Funny, I could have sworn you said that dying of a broken heart wasn't a horrible plot device. It either is or it isn't.

Nonsense. I love soy sauce but I don't put it in my coffee or drizzle it over ice cream.

Adultery is a perfectly legitimate plot device. Some really great films have used it and used it well.

That said, an affair between Obi-wan and Padme would have been a horrible mistake. Not because adultery is a terrible plot device but because adultery in this context would have devalued and cheapened both characters.

Originally Posted by ChainsawJedi

I don't need to rationalise it, any more than I need to rationalise planet-destroying battle stations or ships that can fly through hyperspace.

Planet-destroying battle stations and ships that can fly through hyperspace make sense in that reality.

Does Padme 'losing the will to live' after giving birth to twins really make sense to you? Was that consistent with her character?

I asked you this rhetorically but I'd like an answer this time: was Padme the kind of person who would leave her children in the woods?

[Moviefan2k4]

Originally Posted by Kryptonic

It's basically the same thing.

Not really; "redemption" is often used as a synonym for forgiveness, but atonement is something different. For example, a person can give their own life in an attempt to right having taken another's, but whether the original victim's family forgives them isn't the villain's choice.

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by Kryptonic

It's basically the same thing.

Not for me. Redemption is forgiveness, atonement is payment.

Anyway...I don't know why this hadn't occurred to me before, but two or three months out from SW7, if anyone has any prayer of walking into the film unspoiled, they're going to have to be very careful of social media and movie sites, if not unplug completely. That thing is going to leak like crazy the closer it comes to release date. I'd hate to check my Facebook only to see "Trending: Luke Skywalker Dies in SW7"

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Moviefan2k4

I'm hoping they address what the galaxy now knows about Anakin in "Episode VII", or if Luke revealed the truth to anyone else besides Leia and Han in those thirty years.

That's an interesting point. Even if certain people are to be believed and Disney want to wipe everything but the OT off of the face of the Earth, then Darth Vader's legacy is still fair game because he was such a big part of the original movies.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Not for me. Redemption is forgiveness, atonement is payment.

Anyway...I don't know why this hadn't occurred to me before, but two or three months out from SW7, if anyone has any prayer of walking into the film unspoiled, they're going to have to be very careful of social media and movie sites, if not unplug completely. That thing is going to leak like crazy the closer it comes to release date. I'd hate to check my Facebook only to see "Trending: Luke Skywalker Dies in SW7"

I made the mistake of hoovering up every scrap of info I could before seeing ep III and it basically ruined the experience of seeing it because I already knew every beat of the film. Mind you, that was stuff that I actively sought out on SW fansites, 'cause I wasn't on any social media then and I'm certainly not now, so as long as I avoid hunting down all that spoiler-tastic stuff then I'll be fine.

[simonynwa]

Originally Posted by Kryptonic

It's basically the same thing.

Not really. Atoning is something you do to make up for something. Redemption is something dependent on the perception of others. In this case I think Ernest is right - he does attempt to atone - its up to others to decide if he is redeemed as a result.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by simonynwa

Agree with what should have happened but don't agree with why. Lucas hadn't chickened out otherwise he wouldn't have had Anakin killing the younglings - that's as unsympathetic as you can get.

I dunno, I think he did chicken out and I think he was probably right to.

Audiences can be pretty funny about what they will and won't overlook. Slaughter a village of Sandpeople down to the last woman and child? Eh, okay, you were mad about your mom. Chop off Mace Windu's hand? That was morally ambiguous and Mace was kind of a pompous prick anyway. Murder a bunch of younglings? Well, it was done off-camera and he was a Sith then so you know, when in Rome...

But murder your pregnant wife who we had all gotten to know and like?

That might have been hard for people to get past.

Originally Posted by simonynwa

I want it to be its own thing. I can't imagine anything worse than constantly riffing on the OT. It sounds like the OT characters may not be the total focus of the next trilogy with EpVII essentially bridging the gap so we will see.

Using Episode VII to bridge the OT and the NT is a great idea. Using the characters we know to sort of work our way into this new set of Star Wars stories could work really, really well but I hope JJ & Co show some restraint with regard to fan service and OT nods.

With that kind of thing a little bit can go a long way.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Not for me. Redemption is forgiveness, atonement is payment.

The force ghost family portrait at the end of Jedi has always had a pretty strong 'all is forgiven' vibe about it.

That never really sat quite right with me and seeing some the shenanigans that whacky Anakin pulled over the years didn't help

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Anyway...I don't know why this hadn't occurred to me before, but two or three months out from SW7, if anyone has any prayer of walking into the film unspoiled, they're going to have to be very careful of social media and movie sites, if not unplug completely. That thing is going to leak like crazy the closer it comes to release date. I'd hate to check my Facebook only to see "Trending: Luke Skywalker Dies in SW7"

Oh, definitely. Checking out threads like this is already somewhat risky and it's just going to get worse.

[simonynwa]

The force ghost family portrait at the end of Jedi has always had a pretty strong 'all is forgiven' vibe about it.

But ultimately that's the Force/Religion that has granted him forgiveness not the people. Even in our own society, religion preaches forgiveness for all, that if you confess your sins, you will be redeemed etc.