Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens (USE SPOILER TAGS!)

[simonynwa]

Oh, definitely. Checking out threads like this is already somewhat risky and it's just going to get worse.

Im impressed with the level of secrecy they have managed so far. Lucas had official photos and everything out by now Still it is going to be near impossible this time next year to avoid it. Just by the nature of sites that I visit like this and the clamour for hits based on an SW article.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by simonynwa

But ultimately that's the Force/Religion that has granted him forgiveness not the people. Even in our own society, religion preaches forgiveness for all, that if you confess your sins, you will be redeemed etc.

It's not just the force, though. Obi-wan gives him a little nod/smile and Luke gives him a big smile. They're one, big happy Jedi family again and like I said, that never totally sat right with me.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by simonynwa

Im impressed with the level of secrecy they have managed so far. Lucas had official photos and everything out by now Still it is going to be near impossible this time next year to avoid it. Just by the nature of sites that I visit like this and the clamour for hits based on an SW article.

It will be impossible to avoid info in Star Wars threads and it won't be a whole lot easier in any and all other threads.

[simonynwa]

So are you saying you don't like the fact that Obi Wan and Luke appear to forgive him ? Obi Wan is part of the Force and Luke is his son who he saved so the context of them forgiving him makes sense story wise and thematic wise. Maybe if Leia had given him a dirty look....

Guess it may come down to how much belief/faith you put in a religious philosophy of granting forgiveness to those who genuinely seek it regardless of the crime.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by simonynwa

So are you saying you don't like the fact that Obi Wan and Luke appear to forgive him ? Obi Wan is part of the Force and Luke is his son so the context of them forgiving him makes sense story wise and thematic wise. Maybe if Leia had given him a dirty look....

I'm saying it didn't totally sit right. I know I keep repeating that but it's the most accurate way of describing my reaction. Blowing up planets is kind of a big deal even if you have a change of heart afterward.

Now, in fairness I should also put my reaction in perspective. I had been rolling my eyes a lot during Jedi and I thought the whole family portrait thing was kind of trite and cheesy to begin with.

That said, though, I've had thirty years to mull that initial reaction over and it hasn't really changed all that much.

(a Leia scowl would have been awesome. btw...that's a great freaking idea)

Originally Posted by simonynwa

Guess it may come down to how much belief/faith you put in a religious philosophy of granting forgiveness to those who genuinely seek it regardless of the crime.

I guess I sort of come down in the middle. I believe in granting forgiveness to those who genuinely seek it but I draw the line at inviting them to Thankgiving dinner and giving them big hugs when they arrive.

[simonynwa]

I think it makes sense that it doesn't sit right with you as a viewer because most people's reaction to what Vader had done would be not to forgive. But I think equally I can understand Luke and Obi Wan's reaction too and I don't think the film made an error in wanting to show that, just that the execution does come across a little cheesy . The funeral scene with Luke was enough IMO (could have added Obi Wan in the background there watching with Luke for example) and I think I would cut out all three of the Force Ghosts completely.

Perhaps Abrams may explore the universe's reaction to Vader in Ep VII.

[simonynwa]

I guess I sort of come down in the middle. I believe in granting forgiveness to those who genuinely seek it but I draw the line at inviting them to Thankgiving dinner and giving them big hugs when they arrive.

Force Ghosts do tend to turn up when they feel like it

[AmrlKJaneway]

The doctors said she had pneumonia but I know the truth. She died of a broken heart!

[The Fallen Deity]

BuxQHkXCAAE4vXI.jpg


From Bad Robot Productions Twitter page.

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[ChainsawJedi]

Originally Posted by Jedijake

The fact that Anakin killed children pretty much made him out to be an un-redeemable monster. Saving your own son doesn't undo having killed a bunch of children.

You need to look at the story on a broader scale. He killed the man who told him to kill those children (I presume you mean the Jedi children and not the Tusken children who he murdered in AOTC and then later regretted in his confession to Padme). Every soul can be redeemed; nobody is beyond saving - that's the message Lucas seems to be conveying with Anakin's redemption.

[ChainsawJedi]

Originally Posted by simonynwa

Or destroying an entire planet either - even in the context of just the OT he was beyond redemption. That's assuming you are associating redemption with just forgiveness as opposed to his capacity to change and do the right thing. It's partly why I think Lucas decided to use Christensen as the Force ghost in Jedi - a clumsy way of trying to say this is the Anakin before he did all those bad things, not the monster he became. Most religions after all preach forgiveness for anything if you are truly sorry for what you have done.

Well, in fairness it was Tarkin who made the decision to blow up Alderaan. I don't think Vader thought too much of the Death Star, to be honest.

[ChainsawJedi]

Originally Posted by octagon

Nonsense. I love soy sauce but I don't put it in my coffee or drizzle it over ice cream.

Adultery is a perfectly legitimate plot device. Some really great films have used it and used it well.

That said, an affair between Obi-wan and Padme would have been a horrible mistake. Not because adultery is a terrible plot device but because adultery in this context would have devalued and cheapened both characters.



Planet-destroying battle stations and ships that can fly through hyperspace make sense in that reality.

Does Padme 'losing the will to live' after giving birth to twins really make sense to you? Was that consistent with her character?

I asked you this rhetorically but I'd like an answer this time: was Padme the kind of person who would leave her children in the woods?

No, I don't think she is the kind of person who would leave her children in the woods. However, I also don't agree with you that the character was in any way well-written, so who can really say what she would or wouldn't do in any given situation?

But at least I now know to put the soy sauce away when you next call round for coffee

[simonynwa]

Originally Posted by ChainsawJedi

You need to look at the story on a broader scale. He killed the man who told him to kill those children (I presume you mean the Jedi children and not the Tusken children who he murdered in AOTC and then later regretted in his confession to Padme). Every soul can be redeemed; nobody is beyond saving - that's the message Lucas seems to be conveying with Anakin's redemption.

Hmm, Anakin still made the choice to kill the Jedi children regardless of his future actions. I think Lucas' point may well be that everyone can atone and that in the eyes of most religions he can be redeemed, but equally I don't think anyone watching it and deciding Anakin isn't redeemed to them is wrong either.

[simonynwa]

Originally Posted by ChainsawJedi

Well, in fairness it was Tarkin who made the decision to blow up Alderaan. I don't think Vader thought too much of the Death Star, to be honest.

Seriously that his excuse ? Common theme in your replies seems to be Anakin' mitigating factor in pretty much everything he did was someone else told him to do it. I didnt see him standing there arguing with Tarkin - "You know what, blowing up a billion people doesn't sound like a nice thing to do really Wilhuff"

[ChainsawJedi]

Originally Posted by simonynwa

Seriously that his excuse ? Common theme in your replies seems to be Anakin' mitigating factor in pretty much everything he did was someone else told him to do it. I didnt see him standing there arguing with Tarkin - "You know what, blowing up a billion people doesn't sound like a nice thing to do really Wilhuff"

I don't think saying something twice equates to a common theme.

Indeed, Vader had no part to play in blowing up the planet; Tarkin makes the decision and tells the officer to "fire when ready". It's clear as day that it's Tarkin calling the shots in Episode IV. Leia herself says Tarkin is "holding Vader's leash" and it's Tarkin who tells Vader to release his grip on the Imperial officer during their meeting on board the Death Star.

[Geoff D]

Vader is indeed Tarkin's ***** in the original movie, and if one follows on from ep III straight into that movie it makes him all the more pathetic, it's quite a downfall for the 'Chosen One' who's then reduced to working as a mere thug under Tarkin's rule.

"I'm taking an awful risk, Vader. This'd better work..."

[Kryptonic]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Not for me. Redemption is forgiveness, atonement is payment.

Like I said, basically the same thing. If you atone, then you're redeeming yourself. Hard to have one without the other.

[aiman04]

Originally Posted by The Fallen Deity

Attachment 92578


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Thanks for posting this! While nobody else here is interested in this kind of post, I do appreciate it. My post with the pictures of the Millennium Falcon also went unnoticed. I missed the old days, it was fun analyzing those pictures during the prequels, no matter how bad the films turned out to be.

Whose robotic hand is that?

[kurtlingle]

Yep.

I didn't "read" the book, but I bought the CD's of the book for a long trip to Florida. So we listened to Ep3 for 18 hours straight!

Wonderful book - maybe time to break that out again. Man, I love SW.

Originally Posted by Moviefan2k4

Seriously, you need to read the "Revenge of the Sith" novel; there's tons of stuff in there that Lucas cut from the film, but its based on his screenplay. Vader's "resurrection" scene details that when Palpatine said Anakin had killed Padme, the fallen Jedi tried using his Force powers to destroy the Emperor. However, because so much of his body had been compromised, all that happened were droids exploding and the table breaking. There's even an interior monologue, where Vader realizes that the main reason for his fall was ultimately his own selfishness. He recalls that Padme asked him to come with her on Mustafar, but he refused out of a lust for power and control. In that moment, he was more concerned with his own benefit than hers...and they both suffered for it.

[simonynwa]

Originally Posted by ChainsawJedi

I don't think saying something twice equates to a common theme.

Indeed, Vader had no part to play in blowing up the planet; Tarkin makes the decision and tells the officer to "fire when ready". It's clear as day that it's Tarkin calling the shots in Episode IV. Leia herself says Tarkin is "holding Vader's leash" and it's Tarkin who tells Vader to release his grip on the Imperial officer during their meeting on board the Death Star.

Not denying that Tarkin is in charge but you are arguing this mitigates against Vader's redeemability or lack thereof. It doesn't.

Like I said, basically the same thing. If you atone, then you're redeeming yourself. Hard to have one without the other.

Extreme example - child molester goes to prison to atone, attends therapy/counselling/treatment whatever else is required, comes out of prison truly sorry for what he has done. Is he redeemed in the eyes of most people ? I doubt it, thought religious doctrine might suggest he is.

Thanks for posting this! While nobody else here is interested in this kind of post, I do appreciate it. My post with the pictures of the Millennium Falcon also went unnoticed. I missed the old days, it was fun analyzing those pictures during the prequels, no matter how bad the films turned out to be.

Nothing wrong with a little SW discussion when there isn't much in the way of news