Star Trek: TNG - Season 2 Dec 4

[benbess]

Originally Posted by Barbossa

Don't get TOO excited about season 3 ............ at least not for the first few episodes. It's really not that great for the first 9 or 10 episodes (with the odd exception) but it really starts to hit the mark from episode 10 onwards (although there is still the odd duff episode, the difference being that by then the good outweigh the bad).

+1

Yes. S3 is better than S2, which is better than S1, but it's more of a gradual thing than some of the reviews seem to say.

My grades for the seasons as a whole are roughly:

S1: C+
S2: B-
S3: B

S3 has more A episodes, and fewer C episodes, but there are quite a few B/B- episodes imho.

[serenityncc880]

Originally Posted by Barbossa

Don't get TOO excited about season 3 ............ at least not for the first few episodes. It's really not that great for the first 9 or 10 episodes (with the odd exception) but it really starts to hit the mark from episode 10 onwards (although there is still the odd duff episode, the difference being that by then the good outweigh the bad).

uuughh.... First I heard that TNG was going to blow my mind and is not only the best Trek, but some of the best television in general. and then I started watching season 1 and was disappointed. Then people told me season 2 with Riker's beard is where it starts really taking off. Then I get to season 2 and (while there are some excellent episodes) it has also mostly been a letdown. But then everyone says Season 3 its mostly perfection...now you tell me this . It's going to be season 7 before I know it. I dont know maybe I was overhyped for TNG but right now I really enjoyed TOS much much more.

[DasRetroKid]

Originally Posted by serenityncc880

I have been blind buying these seasons as they've been released on bray. Its been such a struggle to get through these episodes but BOY!!! finally got to A Matter of Honor and the Measure of a Man. Those were fantastic episodes! For the first time since I began watching this series I was fully engaged and highly anticipating the next episode!...and then I watched The Dauphin....sigh here we go again...can't wait to just get to season 3 already

Season 2 is where everything really starts to come together IMO and has some excellent episodes. "The Dauphin"... is not one of them.

Originally Posted by serenityncc880

uuughh.... First I heard that TNG was going to blow my mind and is not only the best Trek, but some of the best television in general. and then I started watching season 1 and was disappointed. Then people told me season 2 with Riker's beard is where it starts really taking off. Then I get to season 2 and (while there are some excellent episodes) it has also mostly been a letdown. But then everyone says Season 3 its mostly perfection...now you tell me this . It's going to be season 7 before I know it. I dont know maybe I was overhyped for TNG but right now I really enjoyed TOS much much more.

TNG (especially the first 3 seasons) is something that many people have very different opinions about. I think your blind buying these sets based on what others have told you and imo (and I'm just trying to be helpful here) I think your better off trying out each season on NetFlix first, instead of continuing to blind buy them, as I think these sets are out of the blind buy price range. I think I'd be more comfortable blind buying something like a Season of Fringe that can usually be had for $20 or so, instead of something that's $60 plus.

[blahsi]

I had to post this - my mom, who has a Blu-ray player but generally doesn't care much about HD, has been borrowing my TNG sets and raved about how amazing season 1 looked. She called me and said, "Why are the special effects so different from season 1? The engines look weird. Shouldn't it look better, not worse?" If she can notice something's off, you know it isn't the best. That said, she said the live action scenes were amazing to see in so much detail. Overall, she's thrilled but I had to post her observations on the special effects since she isn't an HD snob yet.

[benbess]

Originally Posted by serenityncc880

uuughh.... First I heard that TNG was going to blow my mind and is not only the best Trek, but some of the best television in general. and then I started watching season 1 and was disappointed. Then people told me season 2 with Riker's beard is where it starts really taking off. Then I get to season 2 and (while there are some excellent episodes) it has also mostly been a letdown. But then everyone says Season 3 its mostly perfection...now you tell me this . It's going to be season 7 before I know it. I dont know maybe I was overhyped for TNG but right now I really enjoyed TOS much much more.

I'm a big fan of TOS too. The first 2.5 seasons of TOS are mostly very good. They worked like heck and caught lighting in a bottle. Nothing is like that show for people like us who are into it.

TNG takes more time to get its legs and is a different cup of tea. But by S3 it's hitting more than it's missing. I think S4 is better than S3, but it's been so long that I'm not sure. And I think it's fairly steady with a few bumps along the road for S5 through S7.

And so if you can afford them, my suggestion is to keep buying these sets when they are on sale.

Fringe is a lot cheaper, but having watched the whole darn thing I think it's not nearly as good a show as TNG imho. I doubt I'll ever watch Fringe again, but I will come back and rewatch favorite episodes of TNG.

But no doubt, it's just not the same as TOS. Something was lost, but something was gained too. TNG is it's own thing, and is one of the best sci fi shows ever to make it to TV. They never had quite the killer seasons that TOS had in its first two, but in their best episodes (which get to be more frequent) they do their own thing very well.

For what little it may be worth, here are my personal episode by episode grades for S3:

Evolution: B
The Ensigns of Command: B
The Survivors: C
Who Watches the Watchers: B-
The Bonding: C+
Booby Trap: B-
The Enemy: B+
The Price: B-
The Vengeance Factor: B-
The Defector: A
The Hunted: B+
The High Ground: A-
Deja Q: C
A Matter of Perspective: C
Yesterday's Enterprise: A
The Offspring: A
Sins of the Father: A
Allegiance: B-
Captain's Holiday: C
Tin Man: A-
Hollow Pursuits: B
Sarek: A-
The Most Toys: B
Menage a Troi: C
Transfigurations: B
Best of Both Worlds: A

[Maxwell Everett]

Originally Posted by Barbossa

Don't get TOO excited about season 3 ............ at least not for the first few episodes. It's really not that great for the first 9 or 10 episodes (with the odd exception) but it really starts to hit the mark from episode 10 onwards (although there is still the odd duff episode, the difference being that by then the good outweigh the bad).

Originally Posted by serenityncc880

uuughh.... First I heard that TNG was going to blow my mind and is not only the best Trek, but some of the best television in general. and then I started watching season 1 and was disappointed. Then people told me season 2 with Riker's beard is where it starts really taking off. Then I get to season 2 and (while there are some excellent episodes) it has also mostly been a letdown. But then everyone says Season 3 its mostly perfection...now you tell me this . It's going to be season 7 before I know it. I dont know maybe I was overhyped for TNG but right now I really enjoyed TOS much much more.

For what it's worth, I would certainly disagree with the opinion that the first 10 episodes of Season 3 are "really not that great." There is a very noticeable uptick in quality in every department (primarily writing, cinematography, VFX and costuming) right from the start of the season:

no stars - terrible
- poor
- mediocre
- good
- very good
- great

Evolution:
The Ensigns of Command:
The Survivors:
Who Watches the Watchers:
The Bonding:
Booby Trap:
The Enemy:
The Price:
The Vengeance Factor:
The Defector:

Average score: 1/2

[blu-bry]

Can anyone give me some contact information to try to get a replacement disc? My episode of "Elementary Dear Data" will not play through. I would like to see if I can get just this disc replaced.

Thanks.

[Maxwell Everett]

Originally Posted by blu-bry

Can anyone give me some contact information to try to get a replacement disc? My episode of "Elementary My Dear Data" will not play through. I would like to see if I can get just this disc replaced.

Thanks.

How long ago did you purchase it? You may still be able to return it and get a replacement set at the retailer. Try that first. If you don't get anywhere and you establish that the disc still cannot play on any other Blu-ray player, you can try emailing phe.stng@bydeluxe.com or calling 1-877-DELUXE6 (877-335-8936) between 8am to 6pm Pacific, Monday-Friday. That was the contact info for S1.

[blu-bry]

Originally Posted by Maxwell Everett

How long ago did you purchase it? You may still be able to return it and get a replacement set at the retailer. Try that first. If you don't get anywhere and you establish that the disc still cannot play on any other Blu-ray player, you can try emailing phe.stng@bydeluxe.com or calling 1-877-DELUXE6 (877-335-8936) between 8am to 6pm Pacific, Monday-Friday. That was the contact info for S1.

Thanks for the info. I bought the set in late April from Amazon. I guess I can try them first, but I appreciate the help!

[Maxwell Everett]

Originally Posted by blu-bry

Thanks for the info. I bought the set in late April from Amazon. I guess I can try them first, but I appreciate the help!

No problem. Definitely try contacting Amazon and ask if your item is still eligible for exchange:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/custo...deId=200572800

[blonde_devil]

has anyone else ran into issues with the discs not playing? I had one but it was because I put a finger print on it.

[jw007]

Originally Posted by serenityncc880

I have been blind buying these seasons as they've been released on bray. Its been such a struggle to get through these episodes but BOY!!! finally got to A Matter of Honor and the Measure of a Man. Those were fantastic episodes! For the first time since I began watching this series I was fully engaged and highly anticipating the next episode!...and then I watched The Dauphin....sigh here we go again...can't wait to just get to season 3 already

Hello, I've been in the middle of season 2 and I have to agree with you that The Measure of a Man is a phenomenal episode. Last night, I watched this with the audio commentary on as well and learned a lot of illuminating things from writer and former attorney Melinda Snodgrass. I had no idea that Gene Roddenberry had told her that "lawyers dont exist in the 24th century". Now I sort of wonder if Roddenberry was suffering from delusions or dementia towards the end of his life. He seemed to become so controlling of the franchise, unlike in the original series in the 1960s that the Star Trek "universe" had to be a certain way. Obviously since his death, many others have re-interpreted Star Trek, the latest being J.J. Abrams (who I'm not a fan of). The Measure of a Man is such a unique and great episode, with so much dialogue, that I can wholeheartedly say its quite re-watchable. I not only watched it with the audio commentary but also the HD extended version too. I skipped parts of the hybrid extended version but noticed the new/deleted scenes in any case.

Season 2 of TNG started coming together with a few good episodes but obviously it was later in Season 3 when it really started clicking. I think when Michael Piller and Brannon Braga came aboard, that is when TNG became brilliant.

[Maxwell Everett]

Originally Posted by jw007

Season 2 of TNG started coming together with a few good episodes but obviously it was later in Season 3 when it really started clicking. I think when Michael Piller and Brannon Braga came aboard, that is when TNG became brilliant.

I think you may mean Michael Piller and Ronald D. Moore. Moore's spec script for Season 3's "The Bonding" got him hired as story editor beginning with "Sins of the Father." Moore went from executive story editor to co-producer between Seasons 4 and 5.

Brannon Braga started as a summer intern between Seasons 3 and 4 and his first writing credit was "Reunion" which he wrote with Moore. Then he wrote "Identity Crisis" while still technically an intern. He didn't actually get a full-time staff position until Season 5 and the first assignment he was given after being hired on was "The Game." He then became a story editor (along with Rene Echevarria) during Season 6.

[blonde_devil]

Originally Posted by jw007

. I had no idea that Gene Roddenberry had told her that "lawyers dont exist in the 24th century". Now I sort of wonder if Roddenberry was suffering from delusions or dementia towards the end of his life. He seemed to become so controlling of the franchise, unlike in the original series in the 1960s that the Star Trek "universe" had to be a certain way. Obviously since his death, many others have re-interpreted Star Trek, the latest being J.J. Abrams (who I'm not a fan of).

Season 2 of TNG started coming together with a few good episodes but obviously it was later in Season 3 when it really started clicking. I think when Michael Piller and Brannon Braga came aboard, that is when TNG became brilliant.

what, you don't think JJ's version is the best thing since sliced bread? must not be a true fan sorry, had to get that out - heard it myself whenever I said how poor the JJ universe is.

in many ways, the clearing out of the TOS people who were working on TNG helped the series. It seemed like they had things they wanted to do in TOS and were never able to and when TNG came around, they got the chance. I think that is why so many of the first season episodes were bad - they were done in a TOS style which didn't work anymore. they did something rather interesting - bringing in fans like Ron Moore to write episodes but also bringing in people like Piller who knew of the show but were not fans. they kind of kept each other in check so you didn't go too fanboy on episodes but at the same time kept pushing to expand the legacy. I think that might be the reason why networks have tried to bring back other shows and it has failed - they don't have that mix. season 3 really got things going but It is funny in hindsight - with seasons 1 and 2, you were just happy to be seeing new Trek that you just kind of ignored how bad some of those episodes were. you never really thought "wow, that was a bad episodes", it was more "well, it wasn't the greatest". season 3 changed that - you started to look back at some of those episodes and go "oohhh, that was pretty bad". except for Code of Honor - that one was always pretty bad. even at 15 I thought that one was bad.

[jw007]

Originally Posted by Maxwell Everett

I think you may mean Michael Piller and Ronald D. Moore. Moore's spec script for Season 3's "The Bonding" got him hired as story editor beginning with "Sins of the Father." Moore went from executive story editor to co-producer between Seasons 4 and 5.

Brannon Braga started as a summer intern between Seasons 3 and 4 and his first writing credit was "Reunion" which he wrote with Moore. Then he wrote "Identity Crisis" while still technically an intern. He didn't actually get a full-time staff position until Season 5 and the first assignment he was given after being hired on was "The Game." He then became a story editor (along with Rene Echevarria) during Season 6.

Whoops, yes, Ronald D. Moore was the other great addition to the series' evolution. I just am a huge fan of Mr. Braga and really loved most of his work and contributions to TNG. I especially loved his episodes "Cause and Effect", "Parallels", "Timescape" and "Frame of Mind". It's interesting how season 2 is the true transition between promising potential to actually delivering it.

Originally Posted by blonde_devil

what, you don't think JJ's version is the best thing since sliced bread? must not be a true fan sorry, had to get that out - heard it myself whenever I said how poor the JJ universe is.

in many ways, the clearing out of the TOS people who were working on TNG helped the series. It seemed like they had things they wanted to do in TOS and were never able to and when TNG came around, they got the chance. I think that is why so many of the first season episodes were bad - they were done in a TOS style which didn't work anymore. they did something rather interesting - bringing in fans like Ron Moore to write episodes but also bringing in people like Piller who knew of the show but were not fans. they kind of kept each other in check so you didn't go too fanboy on episodes but at the same time kept pushing to expand the legacy. I think that might be the reason why networks have tried to bring back other shows and it has failed - they don't have that mix. season 3 really got things going but It is funny in hindsight - with seasons 1 and 2, you were just happy to be seeing new Trek that you just kind of ignored how bad some of those episodes were. you never really thought "wow, that was a bad episodes", it was more "well, it wasn't the greatest". season 3 changed that - you started to look back at some of those episodes and go "oohhh, that was pretty bad". except for Code of Honor - that one was always pretty bad. even at 15 I thought that one was bad.

Yes, Code of Honor was probably the most polarizing and racist episode of them all, but if you're judging by sheer failure, the season 2 episode Shades of Grey is clearly the worst episode of the entire series. This clip episode they made was already called "a piece of shit" episode by many involved on the show (including Jonathan Frakes), because the studios had no money left for the budget after Elementary Dear Data ate up a lot of the money. It's amazing how the final episode of season 2 was the worst episode and yet the final episode of season 3 was considered the series' best episode (or at least best TV cliffhanger in history).

I also find it fascinating how an old TOS writer such as DC Fontana was involved in very little of the first season before being cleared out for fresh blood. It makes sense that Roddenberry wanted to get whatever was off his chest in the first season before others such as Rick Berman took over the direction of the series. Maurice Hurley was an unsung hero though too and helped shape TNG. It is somewhat of a minor miracle how the chemistry of the cast and producers/writers came together to make the show one of the best in television history. Even while I'm still watching season 2 (just finished Contagion), I already love the direction they went in for that season by including Whoopi Goldberg as Guinan and Diana Muldaur as Dr. Pulaski. I think the addition of 10-forward was brilliant because it created a relaxed environment for the crew to go to. Guinan was almost better than Troi as a counselor (a bartender-counselor that is) and the introduction of the poker games was really the icing on the cake. Of course Riker's beard was also a good change.

Just a funny little thing I noticed after I looked up Diana Muldaur's birthday... I noticed she shares the same birthday as Jonathan Frakes, Gene Roddenberry and... well, me! (yes, my b-day is Aug. 19 too). Ha.

(p.s. don't get me started on J.J....ughhhh)

[blonde_devil]

I don't know - I think Code of Honor may be worse than Shades of Grey. Shades was just a poor episode but Code of Honor was amazingly bad. but that is what I mean about them using TOS mentality - in TOS, you wouldn't be able to get away with that so it would have been some alien but it wouldn't have come across so bad. but since they were in syndication and didn't have to answer to a network, they didn't really need to disguise them as aliens and it failed. I don't know what they were thinking but they really missed the boat on that. at least Shades had a reason for being so bad.

I think the TOS people were involved more than people know. Roddenberry was know to rewrite scripts a lot and Fontana used to rewrite on TOS so I am sure she did the same here regardless of whose name is there as writer. not to knock their writing but I think they were stuck in that TOS mindset when it came to writing and since they had final say, they could rewrite any script they wanted to be what they wanted(more so Roddenberry). I don't want to rag on Roddenberry because he did create Trek but watch the Writers Room bit on Season 3 - you do have to question what he was doing sometimes. I think when he started to give up that control and more oversaw the series was when things started to improve - season 1 had some good episodes, same with 2(too bad the season was short) but season 3 when Piller really took over the writing staff is when it really started to gel.

all I will say about JJ is look at the speech Khan gives when he is in the brig and Kirk is questioning him. In Wrath of Khan, he tells how his people swore to live and die at his command. not that he didn't care about them but their lives were up to him. in JJ's world, this genetically superior tyrant is outsmarted by a human who threatens to kill his people and Khan whines about it. saw that clip on youtube and realized I will never watch that movie.

[Infernal King]

Every time Wesley is onscreen this season, it's difficult for me to focus on anything but his silly pajamas.

[jw007]

Originally Posted by blonde_devil

I don't know - I think Code of Honor may be worse than Shades of Grey. Shades was just a poor episode but Code of Honor was amazingly bad. but that is what I mean about them using TOS mentality - in TOS, you wouldn't be able to get away with that so it would have been some alien but it wouldn't have come across so bad. but since they were in syndication and didn't have to answer to a network, they didn't really need to disguise them as aliens and it failed. I don't know what they were thinking but they really missed the boat on that. at least Shades had a reason for being so bad.

I think the TOS people were involved more than people know. Roddenberry was know to rewrite scripts a lot and Fontana used to rewrite on TOS so I am sure she did the same here regardless of whose name is there as writer. not to knock their writing but I think they were stuck in that TOS mindset when it came to writing and since they had final say, they could rewrite any script they wanted to be what they wanted(more so Roddenberry). I don't want to rag on Roddenberry because he did create Trek but watch the Writers Room bit on Season 3 - you do have to question what he was doing sometimes. I think when he started to give up that control and more oversaw the series was when things started to improve - season 1 had some good episodes, same with 2(too bad the season was short) but season 3 when Piller really took over the writing staff is when it really started to gel.

all I will say about JJ is look at the speech Khan gives when he is in the brig and Kirk is questioning him. In Wrath of Khan, he tells how his people swore to live and die at his command. not that he didn't care about them but their lives were up to him. in JJ's world, this genetically superior tyrant is outsmarted by a human who threatens to kill his people and Khan whines about it. saw that clip on youtube and realized I will never watch that movie.

Wow, so you haven't actually seen the movie Star Trek Into Darkness? Well, if you think the youtube clip is bad, you have no idea just how another scene was completely ripped off from Wrath of Khan towards the end of the film. I won't reveal the scene or the dialogue but its completely ripped off. The movie is ridiculously unoriginal. J.J. had a chance to create something new and fresh but instead he went right back to the second and greatest Star Trek film so he could make his own "Wrath of Khan" Abrams version. It's pathetic and offensive. Shatner and (Levar) Burton were right in calling him out. Abrams went too far and he didn't boldly go, but rather insultingly go where no man had previously gone before.

Back on the second season (as this thread is indeed about the second season)....

I just finished watching "Time Squared" and I kept thinking how this episode is a companion episode to "Cause and Effect" from season 5. Perhaps Worf's theory of the "Moebius" or time becoming a loop was further explored in "Cause and Effect". Instead, "Time Squared" doesn't show the different parallel universes or time versions but singles in on the singularity event when the Enterprise crew decided to go into the "wormhole"/tractor beam or spatial anomaly. I love both episodes but I can't decide which episode is better. "Cause and Effect" just shows a lot of repetition but "Time Squared" added the Picard clone to further create mystery. It's a really spooky episode to say the least. It's far scarier than any other episode in Star Trek: The Next Generation in my opinion. You know how in the TOS "Catspaw" was the Halloween episode with the black cat, witch and wizards and that was supposed to be scary? Well, of course it wasn't at all. It's those unusual episodes which are scary. To me, in the TOS, the scariest episode is "The Tholian Web" when Kirk phased into another dimension. I just love those time or spatial-distortion episodes so much.

Finally, why was season 2 of TNG so short or shortened? Was it related to lack of writers or budget? Season 2 was definitely the most problematic season of them all (with Crusher (temporarily) and Yar leaving the show). Season 2....boy oh boy! I'm just glad the series survived their major sophomore slump.

[Infernal King]

Originally Posted by jw007

Finally, why was season 2 of TNG so short or shortened? Was it related to lack of writers or budget? Season 2 was definitely the most problematic season of them all (with Crusher (temporarily) and Yar leaving the show). Season 2....boy oh boy! I'm just glad the series survived their major sophomore slump.

The Blu-ray special features go into it a lot more but short answer? 1988 Writer's Strike.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by blonde_devil

all I will say about JJ is look at the speech Khan gives when he is in the brig and Kirk is questioning him. In Wrath of Khan, he tells how his people swore to live and die at his command. not that he didn't care about them but their lives were up to him. in JJ's world, this genetically superior tyrant is outsmarted by a human who threatens to kill his people and Khan whines about it. saw that clip on youtube and realized I will never watch that movie.

Judging an entire film by an out of context YouTube clip. BRILLIANT!

How would you feel if someone judged the entire run of TNG by only watching "Shades of Grey"?