Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[Dustin44]

Originally Posted by tobz

They can also downgrade the quality when they want. I just had this happen to about 150 of my iTunes purchases, they were HD but are now SD. Lost iTunes extras as well.

Yeah, you should contact them and get it fixed. That is not suppose to happen.

[flyry]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Can you stop all this hashtag shit firstly please?

You are presuming Digital HD will somehow become more relevant. It won’t. As user number shrink, just keeping these lockers going isn’t going to be viable. Already Subscription is overshadowing Digital HD by a huge margin. Collecting on digital is a no man’s land and Movies Anywhere is about five years too late to the party.

#Dealwithit

Nowhere did I state anything of that kind. Just like most people listen to their music via subscription, I prefer to just purchase what I like. I treat my movies that way as well.

I do not pay for netfilx (though I do leech of my mothers), but I buy whatever movies I like.

Due to me being out of space many of these purchases have been digital for the past year. (Though I will be able to replace my blu-rays of my favorite catalog titles with the 4K disc counterparts when they get released).

And as many people have repeatedly explained to you these video streaming services are mainly loss leaders for these companies (Walmart, Google, Amazon, Apple, Fandango) who sell other products. And with storage being cheaper every year it should not matter.

[The_Donster]

Originally Posted by stonesfan129

Always buy the disc. You never really "own" cloud copies and can be locked out at any time either by whomever owns the IP rights to the movie or because you don't have internet connection.

I'm sorry, but that's just not true. While you can't "physically" touch your digital codes, you do in fact own those. Which is what makes Movies Anywhere really great. Because with the exception of 3 studios, all of your movies port over to other services.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by The_Donster

I'm sorry, but that's just not true. While you can't "physically" touch your digital codes, you do in fact own those. Which is what makes Movies Anywhere really great. Because with the exception of 3 studios, all of your movies port over to other services.

It appears that you do not actually own digital content. Try doing a Google search on this : "do you really own digital content."

In a 2016 article in the LA Times, Apple had this phrase in their user agreements: "Apple and its licensors reserve the right to change, suspend, remove or disable access to any iTunes products, content or other materials comprising a part of the iTunes service at any time without notice."

From an article in The Guardian: "You might be surprised to find that in most cases you are effectively leasing the content, not buying it. This is because you are generally being sold a licence to use the song or film, not the item itself."

Steve Jobs once said: "People want to own their music." The article's author then adds:
"Someone better tell the folks who run the iTunes Store and its competitors. If you buy a digital music track or album from the iTunes store or one of its competitors, you don't own it. Instead, you're buying a license to play that track or album, and that license comes with an extremely limited set of rights."

Another article pointed this out: "Because those licenses are often thousands of words long, it should come as no surprise that consumers don't read them."

And there is this: "a recent study conducted by University of Berkeley Law alumnus Aaron Perzanowski and Berkeley Center for Law and Technology Faculty Director Chris Hoofnagle revealed, most consumers are not aware that they do not actually own much of their digital content."

Contrasting this with physical media ownership: "If you buy a CD in the United States, Section 109 of the Copyright Act gives you very specific rights under the first-sale doctrine. Fred von Lohmann of the Electronic Frontier Foundation explains those rights:

Once you've acquired a lawfully-made CD or book or DVD, you can lend, sell, or give it away without having to get permission from the copyright owner. In simpler terms, "you bought it, you own it" (and because first sale also applies to gifts, "they gave it to you, you own it" is also true).

But the first-sale doctrine only applies to tangible goods, such as CDs."

This search produced a lot of articles that were a little old and that looked at many kinds of digital content, but the common theme among them is that you do not own your purchase like you do with physical media.

http://www.latimes.com/business/laza...nap-story.html

https://www.theguardian.com/money/20...igital-content

https://www.ncconsumer.org/news-arti...ink-again.html

http://www.zdnet.com/article/who-own...t-its-not-you/

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by Vilya

It appears that you do not actually own digital content. Try doing a Google search on this : "do you really own digital content."

You don't own the content on a physical disc you buy either (which is why e.g. you have no right to distribute copies of the content). There are differences regarding the rights granted to buyers of physical media vs. digital purchases (such as reselling), but you can't claim that you own the content in either case.

In a 2016 article in the LA Times, Apple had this phrase in their user agreements: "Apple and its licensors reserve the right to change, suspend, remove or disable access to any iTunes products, content or other materials comprising a part of the iTunes service at any time without notice."

Here are the current terms for iTunes:

https://www.apple.com/legal/internet.../us/terms.html

I don't find anything like what you quoted in there.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

You don't own the content on a physical disc you buy either (which is why e.g. you have no right to distribute copies of the content). There are differences regarding the rights granted to buyers of physical media vs. digital purchases (such as reselling), but you can't claim that you own the content in either case.
Here are the current terms for iTunes:

https://www.apple.com/legal/internet.../us/terms.html

I don't find anything like what you quoted in there.

I refer you back to this quote:

"If you buy a CD in the United States, Section 109 of the Copyright Act gives you very specific rights under the first-sale doctrine. Fred von Lohmann of the Electronic Frontier Foundation explains those rights:

Once you've acquired a lawfully-made CD or book or DVD, you can lend, sell, or give it away without having to get permission from the copyright owner. In simpler terms, "you bought it, you own it" (and because first sale also applies to gifts, "they gave it to you, you own it" is also true).

But the first-sale doctrine only applies to tangible goods, such as CDs."

While you do not own the movie; it is copyrighted, you do own the disc and you can do with it pretty much as you please.

and again: "a recent study conducted by University of Berkeley Law alumnus Aaron Perzanowski and Berkeley Center for Law and Technology Faculty Director Chris Hoofnagle revealed, most consumers are not aware that they do not actually own much of their digital content."

As for the Apple terms of use that I quoted, that is from a 2016 article and the terms of use have certainly been revised in the time since it was written. Thank you for the opportunity to read the latest version, but as I am not an Apple customer I have little interest in doing so; Apple customers should, but, of course, virtually no one reads these mile long agreements and their litany of legalese. And that is one of the points: digital customers have no idea what they are agreeing to and what their rights actually are.

p.s: I did decide to look at the link you provided and I found these:

"APPLE DOES NOT GUARANTEE, REPRESENT, OR WARRANT THAT YOUR USE OF THE SERVICES WILL BE UNINTERRUPTED OR ERROR-FREE, AND YOU AGREE THAT FROM TIME TO TIME APPLE MAY REMOVE THE SERVICES FOR INDEFINITE PERIODS OF TIME, CANCEL THE SERVICES AT ANY TIME, OR OTHERWISE LIMIT OR DISABLE YOUR ACCESS TO THE SERVICES WITHOUT NOTICE TO YOU."

and: "Apple further reserves the right to modify, suspend, or discontinue the Services (or any part or Content thereof) at any time with or without notice to you, and Apple will not be liable to you or to any third party should it exercise such rights."

"YOU EXPRESSLY AGREE THAT YOUR USE OF, OR INABILITY TO USE, THE SERVICES IS AT YOUR SOLE RISK."

"THE SERVICES AND ALL CONTENT DELIVERED TO YOU THROUGH THE SERVICES ARE (EXCEPT AS EXPRESSLY STATED BY APPLE) PROVIDED "AS IS" AND "AS AVAILABLE" FOR YOUR USE, WITHOUT WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND.

"IN NO CASE SHALL APPLE...BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, PUNITIVE, SPECIAL, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES ARISING FROM YOUR USE OF ANY OF THE SERVICES OR FOR ANY OTHER CLAIM RELATED IN ANY WAY TO YOUR USE OF THE SERVICES AND/OR CONTENT."

And my favorite clause because it means that they can change their agreement at will: "Apple reserves the right at any time to modify this Agreement and to add new or additional terms or conditions on your use of the Services. Such modifications and additional terms and conditions will be effective immediately and incorporated into this Agreement. Your continued use of the Services will be deemed acceptance thereof. "

The whole agreement is on a Etch-A-Sketch and can be altered anytime they please. The all caps is exactly how Apple worded it; I am not shouting at anyone.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Vilya

I refer you back to this quote:

"If you buy a CD in the United States, Section 109 of the Copyright Act gives you very specific rights under the first-sale doctrine. Fred von Lohmann of the Electronic Frontier Foundation explains those rights:

Once you've acquired a lawfully-made CD or book or DVD, you can lend, sell, or give it away without having to get permission from the copyright owner. In simpler terms, "you bought it, you own it" (and because first sale also applies to gifts, "they gave it to you, you own it" is also true).

But the first-sale doctrine only applies to tangible goods, such as CDs."

While you do not own the movie; it is copyrighted, you do own the disc and you can do with it pretty much as you please.

and again: "a recent study conducted by University of Berkeley Law alumnus Aaron Perzanowski and Berkeley Center for Law and Technology Faculty Director Chris Hoofnagle revealed, most consumers are not aware that they do not actually own much of their digital content."


As for the Apple terms of use that I quoted, that is from a 2016 article and the terms of use have certainly been revised in the time since it was written. Thank you for the opportunity to read the latest version, but as I am not an Apple customer I have little interest in doing so; Apple customers should, but, of course, virtually no one reads these mile long agreements and their litany of legalese. And that is one of the points: digital customers have no idea what they are agreeing to and what their rights actually are.

I think the quote from the late Steve Jobs is pretty telling as to Apple's view on digital content.

p.s: I did decide to look at the link you provided and I found these:

"APPLE DOES NOT GUARANTEE, REPRESENT, OR WARRANT THAT YOUR USE OF THE SERVICES WILL BE UNINTERRUPTED OR ERROR-FREE, AND YOU AGREE THAT FROM TIME TO TIME APPLE MAY REMOVE THE SERVICES FOR INDEFINITE PERIODS OF TIME, CANCEL THE SERVICES AT ANY TIME, OR OTHERWISE LIMIT OR DISABLE YOUR ACCESS TO THE SERVICES WITHOUT NOTICE TO YOU."

and: "Apple further reserves the right to modify, suspend, or discontinue the Services (or any part or Content thereof) at any time with or without notice to you, and Apple will not be liable to you or to any third party should it exercise such rights."

"YOU EXPRESSLY AGREE THAT YOUR USE OF, OR INABILITY TO USE, THE SERVICES IS AT YOUR SOLE RISK."

"THE SERVICES AND ALL CONTENT DELIVERED TO YOU THROUGH THE SERVICES ARE (EXCEPT AS EXPRESSLY STATED BY APPLE) PROVIDED "AS IS" AND "AS AVAILABLE" FOR YOUR USE, WITHOUT WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND.

"IN NO CASE SHALL APPLE...BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, PUNITIVE, SPECIAL, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES ARISING FROM YOUR USE OF ANY OF THE SERVICES OR FOR ANY OTHER CLAIM RELATED IN ANY WAY TO YOUR USE OF THE SERVICES AND/OR CONTENT."

And my favorite clause because it means that they can change their agreement at will: "Apple reserves the right at any time to modify this Agreement and to add new or additional terms or conditions on your use of the Services. Such modifications and additional terms and conditions will be effective immediately and incorporated into this Agreement. Your continued use of the Services will be deemed acceptance thereof. "

The whole agreement is on a Etch-A-Sketch and can be altered anytime they please. The all caps is exactly how Apple worded it; I am not shouting at anyone.

Modify. Ahhh modify. In other words, the very conservative no violence, no sexual content Apple can modify their content? No one can see a problem with that going forward? Not just Apple, can’t believe you guys are signing up for that.

Me? Not now, not EVER!

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by Vilya

While you do not own the movie; it is copyrighted, you do own the disc and you can do with it pretty much as you please.

No you can't. What you buy when purchasing a BD is a piece of plastic and a license to use the content in certain restricted ways (for example, a license of home media typically doesn't grant you to right to commercial use). What you get when you buy a digital release is a license to use it in slightly different ways (some more restrictive, some less, such as the option of using the content on multiple devices simultaneously).

Apple customers should, but, of course, virtually no one reads these mile long agreements and their litany of legalese. And that is one of the points: digital customers have no idea what they are agreeing to and what their rights actually are.

Well, you started with the legalese.

I think the quote from the late Steve Jobs is pretty telling as to Apple's view on digital content.

For one, he was obviously wrong. The success of Spotify and Apple Music (!) shows that people don't necessarily want to "own" their music. Furthermore, I'd like to see the context of that quote. The quote is just as true for CDs as it is for digital music: you don't own the music. You merely buy a license to use it in certain ways.

Regarding you quotes about the provider reserving the right to modify the content, that too can happen with discs (remember when they censored the Bush head in Game of Thrones and pulled the first release off the shelves?). Now you can of course reply that they can't touch the discs in your home. Well, they can't touch the downloaded movies on my NAS either.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

No you can't. What you buy when purchasing a BD is a piece of plastic and a license to use the content in certain restricted ways (for example, a license of home media typically doesn't grant you to right to commercial use). What you get when you buy a digital release is a license to use it in slightly different ways (some more restrictive, some less, such as the option of using the content on multiple devices simultaneously).
Well, you started with the legalese.
For one, he was obviously wrong. The success of Spotify and Apple Music (!) shows that people don't necessarily want to "own" their music. Furthermore, I'd like to see the context of that quote. The quote is just as true for CDs as it is for digital music: you don't own the music. You merely buy a license to use it in certain ways.

Regarding you quotes about the provider reserving the right to modify the content, that too can happen with discs (remember when they censored the Bush head in Game of Thrones and pulled the first release off the shelves?). Now you can of course reply that they can't touch the discs in your home. Well, they can't touch the downloaded movies on my NAS either.

Another part of that Apple agreement reads:

"You agree not to modify, rent, loan, sell, or distribute the Services or Content in any manner, and you shall not exploit the Services in any manner not expressly authorized. "

With a disc, I can lend it to anyone and I can sell it to anyone because I own the disc. My ownership of the disc is fully transferable. Disc ownership does not involve any cumbersome EULA agreement with its "we are responsible for nothing" disclaimers and its ability to change the terms, and the content, at will.

I quoted a few articles about whether digital purchases constituted ownership and they all agree essentially that you do not.

I misquoted Steve Jobs and I have corrected it in my original post. The point being made is that you do not own digital downloads.

The content on my discs are frozen in amber, unchangeable for good or ill. No one will ever come to my door to take a disc away from me. With digital sell thru, they can modify your content at will if you have not downloaded it. I suspect that many owners of large digital collections have not downloaded all of their libraries, leaving them vulnerable to potential modifications.

As for what you have downloaded, it is my understanding that you still need Apple's proprietary software to use it and that they can monkey with at will. They sure can't tamper with my disc player.

I do not have to agree to all that crap that Apple makes you agree to and I never will. Digital sell thru customers have no idea what they are agreeing with because they have not even read the agreements AND even if they do, the agreement can be altered at will by the licensor. My discs come with a warranty, your downloads come with squat.

[tobz]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

Have you contacted support? This is not normal.

Originally Posted by Dustin44

Yeah, you should contact them and get it fixed. That is not suppose to happen.

Yup I contacted MA first because stuff like this has happened with them before and they told me they were showing HD on their end so it must be Apple's problem and I should contact them.

I then contacted iTunes support on three different occasions and even spoke to a "supervisor" who did some "investigating" and emailed me back after a few days and basically told me that they were always SD and that I never had HD and there was nothing they could do.

I know I could use another digital service but this whole experience has soured me on digital tbh.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by Vilya

With a disc, I can lend it to anyone and I can sell it to anyone because I own the disc. My ownership of the disc is fully transferable.

True. But then, in iTunes I have family sharing, which allows me to easily share my entire library with my sister who lives on the other side of the continent. Try that with your disc collection.

I quoted a few articles about whether digital purchases constituted ownership and they all agree essentially that you do not.

Assuming you are talking about ownership in a legal sense, I don't think anybody denied that. But it is also true that buying a plastic disc doesn't give you ownership of the movie either. In both cases you just acquire a license to use the content in certain ways.

What really matters for the consumer is not some legal definition of "ownership", but that in both cases you make a one-time purchase and get permanent access to your movies without paying rental or subscription fees. In that sense, I "own" my downloads just as much as I "own" my discs.

The content on my discs are frozen in amber, unchangeable for good or ill. No one will ever come to my door to take a disc away from me. With digital sell thru, they can modify your content at will if you have not downloaded it. I suspect that many owners of large digital collections have not downloaded all of their libraries, leaving them vulnerable to potential modifications.

That is their own choice. In the real world, all these theoretical horror scenarios that disc-only "extremists" dream up just don't happen; that's probably why most people don't bother making backups. Also, at the end of the day we are talking about movie collections, which isn't really something to lose sleep over for most people.

As for what you have downloaded, it is my understanding that you still need Apple's proprietary software to use it and that they can monkey with at will. They sure can't tamper with my disc player.

Actually, they could in theory revoke the AACS keys in your player every time you play a new disc, which could render some or all of your discs unplayable. Farfetched? Sure. But so is your scenario of Apple sabotaging my iTunes and Apple TV. Why exactly would they want to do that?

My discs come with a warranty, your downloads come with squat.

Well, for movies I'll take free 4K upgrades and constantly updating extras over a "warranty" any day.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

True. But then, in iTunes I have family sharing, which allows me to easily share my entire library with my sister who lives on the other side of the continent. Try that with your disc collection.
Assuming you are talking about ownership in a legal sense, I don't think anybody denied that. But it is also true that buying a plastic disc doesn't give you ownership of the movie either. In both cases you just acquire a license to use the content in certain ways.

What really matters for the consumer is not some legal definition of "ownership", but that in both cases you make a one-time purchase and get permanent access to your movies without paying rental or subscription fees. In that sense, I "own" my downloads just as much as I "own" my discs.
That is their own choice. In the real world, all these theoretical horror scenarios that disc-only "extremists" dream up just don't happen; that's probably why most people don't bother making backups. Also, at the end of the day we are talking about movie collections, which isn't really something to lose sleep over for most people.
Actually, they could in theory revoke the AACS keys in your player every time you play a new disc, which could render some or all of your discs unplayable. Farfetched? Sure. But so is your scenario of Apple sabotaging my iTunes and Apple TV. Why exactly would they want to do that?
Well, for movies I'll take free 4K upgrades and constantly updating extras over a "warranty" any day.

I can't argue the sharing benefits of a digital collection, but I don't really need to as my physical copies usually have the codes like a prize in a cereal box allowing me to do just that. I get the best of both worlds in most instances.

It was my understanding that the license to play a disc is contained on that disc and therefore can not in any way be revoked. Players do not have to go online to authenticate anything and can be completely disconnected from the internet and still operate normally. I understand online authentication could be added to future 4K UHD discs as it is part of the specifications, but it has not been implemented so far.

Digital providers in no way guarantee permanence or, frankly, anything at all. I do not necessarily believe that Apple or any other digital sell thru provider plans to make draconian changes to their content, in part or in whole, but it bothers me that they reserve the right to do so. Their EULAs also bother me in how restrictive they are and how they disown any responsibility for what they do or don't do; they even have a clause that says you can not sue them even if they do wrong you somehow. Use at your sole risk indeed!

All I have to comply with is that little FBI blurb at the start of a disc; Digital customers agree to a litany of rules without even knowing what they are. I try to have faith, but not blind faith.

I get the digital code along with my 4K disc purchase, so, again, I feel like I am getting the whole shebang and the best of everything.

Ownership's legal definition may not interest the casual collector, but for me having something tangible in my physical possession that is safe from changeable EULA agreements or any other outside factors like unreliable ISPs and their data caps is much more important. And I am not moving to get better internet service.

I almost never have to contact anyone's customer service because my discs are amazingly reliable. I want to spend my time watching my collection, not figuring out what happened to it. I don't care what Apple, Amazon, Google Play, Vudu, or Movies Anywhere decides to do with their digital services because my discs are immune from whatever schemes they cook up next and whatever snafus they find themselves embroiled in. My disc resolutions never change, the movie version never reverts to a shorter cut, and titles in my library never go AWOL.

[veritas]

Originally Posted by tobz

Yup I contacted MA first because stuff like this has happened with them before and they told me they were showing HD on their end so it must be Apple's problem and I should contact them.

I then contacted iTunes support on three different occasions and even spoke to a "supervisor" who did some "investigating" and emailed me back after a few days and basically told me that they were always SD and that I never had HD and there was nothing they could do.

I know I could use another digital service but this whole experience has soured me on digital tbh.

Ya I have had similar problems and if you go on the MA page a lot of other people have also been having those same problems basically since the inception of ma. I have found in general every tech support team blames the other guy. Even if they cant blame the other guy don't expect a problem to be fixed fast they took 3 months to get a problem fixed for me and expected a pat on the back for fixing something that should not have wasted my time in the first place and sadly fixed after 3 months is better then the average as some stuff never gets fixed.

They basically need one guy who is authorized to fix problems for all the studios because this is a customer service nightmare. Right now they act like it costs them money to re-add a movie you already own to your collection (like Disney used to do) so they just push it to the next guy till the customer gives up.

If I have a problem with physical best buy or Walmart doesn't say oh well this is a studio problem take it up with them, they replace or refund. That's proper customer service when theirs a problem you fix it you don't blame somebody else in the chain and hope the customer goes to bother them.

[Steedeel]

I was shocked at Vudu’s market share for Digital HD. In the last quarter it was single figures. I always presumed it was the leading storefront considering it has worked with UV for a long time. Pretty sure Amazon and ITunes was way ahead.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Vilya

I can't argue the sharing benefits of a digital collection, but I don't really need to as my physical copies usually have the codes like a prize in a cereal box allowing me to do just that. I get the best of both worlds in most instances.

It was my understanding that the license to play a disc is contained on that disc and therefore can not in any way be revoked. Players do not have to go online to authenticate anything and can be completely disconnected from the internet and still operate normally. I understand online authentication could be added to future 4K UHD discs as it is part of the specifications, but it has not been implemented so far.

Digital providers in no way guarantee permanence or, frankly, anything at all. I do not necessarily believe that Apple or any other digital sell thru provider plans to make draconian changes to their content, in part or in whole, but it bothers me that they reserve the right to do so. Their EULAs also bother me in how restrictive they are and how they disown any responsibility for what they do or don't do; they even have a clause that says you can not sue them even if they do wrong you somehow. Use at your sole risk indeed!

All I have to comply with is that little FBI blurb at the start of a disc; Digital customers agree to a litany of rules without even knowing what they are. I try to have faith, but not blind faith.

I get the digital code along with my 4K disc purchase, so, again, I feel like I am getting the whole shebang and the best of everything.

Ownership's legal definition may not interest the casual collector, but for me having something tangible in my physical possession that is safe from changeable EULA agreements or any other outside factors like unreliable ISPs and their data caps is much more important. And I am not moving to get better internet service.

I almost never have to contact anyone's customer service because my discs are amazingly reliable. I want to spend my time watching my collection, not figuring out what happened to it. I don't care what Apple, Amazon, Google Play, Vudu, or Movies Anywhere decides to do with their digital services because my discs are immune from whatever schemes they cook up next and whatever snafus they find themselves embroiled in. My disc resolutions never change, the movie version never reverts to a shorter cut, and titles in my library never go AWOL.

The last paragraph is like the final punch in a boxing match.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

Assuming you are talking about ownership in a legal sense, I don't think anybody denied that. But it is also true that buying a plastic disc doesn't give you ownership of the movie either. In both cases you just acquire a license to use the content in certain ways.

Originally Posted by Vilya

It was my understanding that the license to play a disc is contained on that disc and therefore can not in any way be revoked. Players do not have to go online to authenticate anything and can be completely disconnected from the internet and still operate normally. I understand online authentication could be added to future 4K UHD discs as it is part of the specifications, but it has not been implemented so far.

I agree with Vilya.

And I always find the whole "you don't actually own the movie" argument to be a very weak argument that focuses more on semantics than focusing on the reality that, as Vilya pointed out, the "license" to play a disc cannot be revoked.


We still own the disc, itself, and by extension, whatever is contained within it. It does not give us any kind of legal ownership over the intellectual property contained within, or any right to make copies and distribute it, but in terms of what it DOES give us, that cannot be taken away after the fact by the studio or the retailer that we purchased it from (be it intentionally or as a result of any involved company going under, being sold, etc.)

Nothing that we buy gives us any kind of legal ownership over any copyrighted/trademarks names or unique patented aspects of the product in question.

If you want to start a toothpaste company, you can do so (assuming you have the means to start one up). But you cannot legally slap an existing brand name on it like Crest or Colgate just because you bought their products at some point in the past. But it doesn't change the fact that when you bought those products, you owned those individual tubes of toothpaste, etc. Now obviously toothpaste is something that is consumable and you need to buy more of when you run out of what you have now, but the point remains the same.

Regardless of whether an items is consumable or something that can be used and last for decades, we do not have ownership over their IPS, nor the right to copy them.

The only thing that really sets media apart from other products in this regard is that with technology being what it is, and what it has been for years to some extent or another (going back to the days of blank VHS tapes, for example), it just happens to be easier to illegally copy/distribute media than it is to copy a branded tube of toothpaste. That's why we get FBI warnings on media, but generally not on teeth-cleaning products, for example. But on any product with any kind of copyrighted/trademarked aspects to it, there is always fine print about those aspects of it, which to some extent serve the same essential function as an FBI warning in front of a movie.

Originally Posted by Vilya

Digital providers in no way guarantee permanence or, frankly, anything at all. I do not necessarily believe that Apple or any other digital sell thru provider plans to make draconian changes to their content, in part or in whole, but it bothers me that they reserve the right to do so. Their EULAs also bother me in how restrictive they are and how they disown any responsibility for what they do or don't do; they even have a clause that says you can not sue them even if they do wrong you somehow. Use at your sole risk indeed!

All I have to comply with is that little FBI blurb at the start of a disc; Digital customers agree to a litany of rules without even knowing what they are. I try to have faith, but not blind faith.

Yup! And this is why I really dislike digital distribution in general. At least with movies, physical options that give me reliable, continuous access to those movies still exist.

I'm more bothered currently with how this impacts video games. Even when sold physically, things like update patches (which in some instances fix major glitches/bugs), new/add-on content, etc., is only distributed digitally. Some games may later get some kind of "ultimate" edition with much of that content also on the disc, and I often either wait for or upgrade to those versions when possible, but that's not the case for all titles.

Personally, I think of EULAs as EULUs... End User License Ultimatums. They have all of the rights and hold all of the cards. They essentially blatantly say this in those license agreements, but people take it on faith that they will never actually exercise those rights. It's like they are holding a gun to your head, saying that they have the right to shoot you at any time, but not to worry because they don't intend to ever do so.

If there's no intention/reason under any circumstance for them to exercise those "rights" (or in essence pull the trigger), then there would be no need for them to have those rights spelled out in the agreement, or in essence, hold the gun to your head in the first place.

Honestly I really think laws need to be updated to give consumers more rights when it comes to purchased digitally distributed content. If it is supposed to "all be the same" as a select few (one in particular) like to say here in this thread, then we should at the very least have some kind of legal right to maintain access to something purchased digitally as we do the physical equivalent

I almost never have to contact anyone's customer service because my discs are amazingly reliable. I want to spend my time watching my collection, not figuring out what happened to it. I don't care what Apple, Amazon, Google Play, Vudu, or Movies Anywhere decides to do with their digital services because my discs are immune from whatever schemes they cook up next and whatever snafus they find themselves embroiled in. My disc resolutions never change, the movie version never reverts to a shorter cut, and titles in my library never go AWOL.

EXACTLY!

Yeah, it is nice that itunes, for example, apparently is upgrading previously purchased movies to 4K at no charge.

At the same time, there have been instances where an older transfer of a movie is replaced by a newer one that is comparatively more problematic (i.e. DNRed to death). Even if that older transfer wasn't perfect, it was the lesser of two "evils."

And I've seen posts here and there in the digital section about people losing access to/missing a movie that they previously bought. In some cases they are able to contact the service and get it corrected, but the fact that they even had to do that is ridiculous IMO.

I've seen posts about people who had HD digital versions suddenly only have access to SD versions.

Now, I get that those instances are probably far fewer than the comparatively more positive instances of things like itunes upgrading movies to 4K versions. But the idea that anything like that could happen at all really irritates me, and on sheer principle, I do not want to essentially "agree" to that compromise. IMO one titles being effected by these more negative aspects is one too many.

I would rather my collection be otherwise "locked" at 1080p than have to deal with those lesser aspects even once, let alone on several occasions.
I'm not rich and I won't go so far as to say that money is simply "no object" to me. But I'm also not poor, and I would rather have to spend money to upgrade movies that I feel are worth upgrading than to have to worry about even the most seldom of occasions where a title goes missing or is essentially "downgraded" quality wise in some respect or another (be it in specified resolution, or due to a problematic newer transfer).... let alone the possibility of permanently losing access if any of those terms that you have to agree to in the EULUs are ever evoked for any reason, removing access to any title(s) altogether.

[Petra_Kalbrain]

How does anyone with 100+ titles in a digital collection even notice any changes to their content? Do they have their entire library of titles memorized? Do they review the list every day to ensure nothing has disappear or has had high quality access revoked? Is there a statute of limitations on reporting problems? “Hi. I just discovered that my copy of Jumanji is now SD, but 2 years ago I had access to an HD copy. What happened?” “I’m sorry sir, but there is nothing we can do. You should have called us at the time that your access was changed. It has been too long for us to verify what you are claiming. Have a nice day.” Given that many of us can’t watch EVERY title in our collection even once a year, how the hell can any collection of any significant size be manageable in those regards?!?!

With 500+ discs I never have to do any of that. If something is going to change, it will have been at MY discretion and I will 100% know exactly what has happened. I don’t have the time or patience to deal with babysitting a digital collection closely enough to ensure that I’m not being jerked around by studios/distributors. There are far more important things in life.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Digital providers in no way guarantee permanence or, frankly, anything at all. I do not necessarily believe that Apple or any other digital sell thru provider plans to make draconian changes to their content, in part or in whole, but it bothers me that they reserve the right to do so.

I trust in the profit motive way more than I would in any "guarantee". If they start removing purchased content arbitrarily, people will stop buying and their business is done, and they know it.

BTW, the "warranty" for our discs doesn't help if we lose them or our house is flooded or goes up in flames. I think this is much more likely than Apple taking away my collection.

I get the digital code along with my 4K disc purchase, so, again, I feel like I am getting the whole shebang and the best of everything.

Sure, but in many cases you pay a higher price for it (and you have to find room for all the discs, which has become a problem for me).

I almost never have to contact anyone's customer service because my discs are amazingly reliable.

I have contacted iTunes customer service exactly once in my life. I've had more trouble getting some defective discs replaced (although that is rare too).

My disc resolutions never change, the movie version never reverts to a shorter cut, and titles in my library never go AWOL.

Well, my resolutions do occasionally change: they get upgraded.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

I trust in the profit motive way more than I would in any "guarantee". If they start removing purchased content arbitrarily, people will stop buying and their business is done, and they know it.

BTW, the "warranty" for our discs doesn't help if we lose them or our house is flooded or goes up in flames. I think this is much more likely than Apple taking away my collection.
Sure, but in many cases you pay a higher price for it (and you have to find room for all the discs, which has become a problem for me).
I have contacted iTunes customer service exactly once in my life. I've had more trouble getting some defective discs replaced (although that is rare too).
Well, my resolutions do occasionally change: they get upgraded.

You are lucky. A few get downgraded.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

I trust in the profit motive way more than I would in any "guarantee". If they start removing purchased content arbitrarily, people will stop buying and their business is done, and they know it.

The key word there is arbitrarily. I doubt they would do that, either. But there could be any number of other issues or reasons that could come up depending on a number of factors, including (but not limited to) the title being caught up in some legal red tape due to a question of which studio owns it, if it has changed hands in the past, a service shutting down/getting bought out, etc.

BTW, the "warranty" for our discs doesn't help if we lose them or our house is flooded or goes up in flames. I think this is much more likely than Apple taking away my collection.

That's what insurance is for, which is something people should have regardless of their preferred form of buying movies.