The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey - Extended Edition 2D 3D Statues 11/5/13

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by Cook

Maybe... I don't know for sure. What I do know is that it made no sense in the context of the scene and characters. Even if he wanted to retcon the witch king theme and have it evolve over these three films and become the witchking theme that we know from LOTR it makes no sense, because their is absolutely no connection between azog and the witchking beyond both being raging dick holes. It doesn't make sense for the theme to evolve that way. Imo it was nonsensical. I'm not a composer tho so wtf do I know lol.

I think Azog is somehow tied to the Necromancer, hence the decision to use the theme. Personally, I was disappointed and found the use of the cue jarring, but we'll see how it all plays out.

[BarnDoor]

Just to clarify the music issue:

1) There are instances of directly tracked music from LOTR - the use of 'Breaking of the Fellowship' in the Gandalf and Galadriel scene; much of the music in the 'Riddles in the Dark' sequence; a good portion of the music during the closing Carrock sequence, from when they are put down to when Thorin catches sight of Erebor. You can hear Shore's original intentions for these scenes on the soundtrack.

2) The use of the Ringwraith music during the Thorin/Azog encounter is jarring (though apparently there will be an explanation for it - some themes, like that and the Fourth Age Gondor theme, will seemingly be rethought), but it is NOT tracked - it is clearly a new recording not heard in LOTR. Shore's original, more Dwarven idea for this scene can be heard in 'Out of the Frying Pan'.

3) In general Shore's intent as heard on the soundtrack suffers in the film. In addition to the tracked music, much of his material for Radagast the Brown does not feature. And there are chops and changes all over the place, as well as music composed for The Hobbit being recycled at various points. So, for example, the music for Radagast's escape from Dol Guldur - unmistakably Radagastian in the context of Shore's original vision - appears again when Bilbo is racing to rejoin the Company after his encounter with Gollum. There's also the new Bilbo theme, the sole statement of which (Bilbo in Rivendell EE sequence notwithstanding, as heard in the deluxe version of 'The White Council') was rejected in favour of the traditional Shire theme.

The problem with all this is that Shore's meticulous scheme for the LOTR soundtracks is almost thrown out of the window by Jackson in favour of something that to him fits the scene. We are told by someone close to Shore that it is normal for these kind of changes to occur, but there's not many really buying this, given the problems with King Kong. This is pure speculation, but I also wonder if Shore felt conscious of having to perform consistent variations of the main theme, which he didn't actually come up with (Plan 9 did). There's a track on the deluxe soundtrack called 'Edge of the Wild', the first section of which I'm almost certain was intended to accompany the shots of the Company journeying away from Rivendell. Though it features a brief line of the famous 'Misty Mountains' theme, the initial part is different, and clearly intended as an accompanying theme for the Company. But it seems that Jackson wanted the grand statement of the 'Misty Mountains' theme from the trailer in there. I suspect Jackson had very different ideas for the soundtrack and wasn't sold on a fair portion of it.

Hence why I hope Shore is given a chance to reinstate some of his ideas for the EE. Perhaps it was late in the process and he didn't have a chance to offer something more preferable to Jackson. That said, there are some musical changes from the soundtrack which work better, the music for the Eagle attack and flight being the most obvious example (compare to the soundtrack's 'A Good Omen'). So some care would be required, as I'd hate for that to be replaced.

[WorkShed]

BarnDoor, when Jackson said he finished the cut on the Extended Edition doesn't mean that it is ready to go. Like I said, the effects work (which is massive) still needs to be done and there is tons of tweaking to do. Approvals have to be made and that takes time. It also takes more time when working on another 3-hour film at the same time.

I don't know why you dispute this.

[BarnDoor]

Originally Posted by WorkShed

BarnDoor, when Jackson said he finished the cut on the Extended Edition doesn't mean that it is ready to go. Like I said, the effects work (which is massive) still needs to be done and there is tons of tweaking to do. Approvals have to be made and that takes time. It also takes more time when working on another 3-hour film at the same time.

I don't know why you dispute this.

I don't dispute that - when I quoted Ernest Rister a page or so back I say there is obviously still work to be done on it, like music and CGI. I'm disputing the notion that this process takes 9-10 months to complete from the moment it's cut. I think it could probably be done in something like 6-7.

We don't know how complete these added scenes are. There are indications that they were cut very late in the process, and therefore may be practically finished. For example, the soundtrack appears to suggest that Shore has already scored the music for Bilbo exploring Rivendell and talking with Elrond, and possibly also Gandalf at the High Fells (if this hasn't been pushed to The Desolation of Smaug).

[Ernest Rister]

Originally Posted by BarnDoor

I don't dispute that - when I quoted Ernest Rister a page or so back I say there is obviously still work to be done on it, like music and CGI. I'm disputing the notion that this process takes 9-10 months to complete from the moment it's cut. I think it could probably be done in something like 6-7.

We don't know how complete these added scenes are. There are indications that they were cut very late in the process, and therefore may be practically finished. For example, the soundtrack appears to suggest that Shore has already scored the music for Bilbo exploring Rivendell and talking with Elrond, and possibly also Gandalf at the High Fells (if this hasn't been pushed to The Desolation of Smaug).

Again, just to be clear, I'm not suggesting the EE is ready to go "right now", but spacing the two apart, with the EE scheduled for the Fall, is clearly a marketing strategy, and there is nothing wrong with that, at all. I don't know why people are defensive about it, like the idea is some sort of attack on Jackson.

[rickah88]

Originally Posted by Ernest Rister

Again, just to be clear, I'm not suggesting the EE is ready to go "right now", but spacing the two apart, with the EE scheduled for the Fall, is clearly a marketing strategy, and there is nothing wrong with that, at all. I don't know why people are defensive about it, like the idea is some sort of attack on Jackson.

Exactly! Also let's not overlook the fact that PJ, like with the LotR movies, annouced ahead of time that there will be an EE counterpart coming in the near future. That right there is a great move for those that don't wish to doubledip. If anything PJ is being quite noble in the fact that he's saying you can buy the theatrical now, OR wait until the EE comes out "towards the end of the year".
I only wish other filmmakers/studios would adpot this process.

[WorkShed]

I'm not seeing it as an attack on Jackson, just that people need to be realistic on the time-tables of film post-production. Weta Digital is working like a dog on just the theatrical cuts alone, let alone the extended versions. They have more power than they did ten years ago in staff and processing, but the bar has been raised in that time as well.

The extended cuts will become the default versions for many people for decades to come. Everybody wants to do it right. That takes time.

[Walter E Kurtz]

Originally Posted by Cobalt Blu

I actually think I could hold out and wait for the box set for all three Hobbit EE movies to come out before buying. I liked The Hobbit but didn't love it.

me too,

im really in no rush to see it again.

[WorkShed]

I'll probably end up waiting as well. Price and I would like a box set similar to LOTR.

[HomerThompson]

Originally Posted by BarnDoor

Just to clarify the music issue:

1) There are instances of directly tracked music from LOTR - the use of 'Breaking of the Fellowship' in the Gandalf and Galadriel scene; much of the music in the 'Riddles in the Dark' sequence; a good portion of the music during the closing Carrock sequence, from when they are put down to when Thorin catches sight of Erebor. You can hear Shore's original intentions for these scenes on the soundtrack.

2) The use of the Ringwraith music during the Thorin/Azog encounter is jarring (though apparently there will be an explanation for it - some themes, like that and the Fourth Age Gondor theme, will seemingly be rethought), but it is NOT tracked - it is clearly a new recording not heard in LOTR. Shore's original, more Dwarven idea for this scene can be heard in 'Out of the Frying Pan'.

3) In general Shore's intent as heard on the soundtrack suffers in the film. In addition to the tracked music, much of his material for Radagast the Brown does not feature. And there are chops and changes all over the place, as well as music composed for The Hobbit being recycled at various points. So, for example, the music for Radagast's escape from Dol Guldur - unmistakably Radagastian in the context of Shore's original vision - appears again when Bilbo is racing to rejoin the Company after his encounter with Gollum. There's also the new Bilbo theme, the sole statement of which (Bilbo in Rivendell EE sequence notwithstanding, as heard in the deluxe version of 'The White Council') was rejected in favour of the traditional Shire theme.

The problem with all this is that Shore's meticulous scheme for the LOTR soundtracks is almost thrown out of the window by Jackson in favour of something that to him fits the scene. We are told by someone close to Shore that it is normal for these kind of changes to occur, but there's not many really buying this, given the problems with King Kong. This is pure speculation, but I also wonder if Shore felt conscious of having to perform consistent variations of the main theme, which he didn't actually come up with (Plan 9 did). There's a track on the deluxe soundtrack called 'Edge of the Wild', the first section of which I'm almost certain was intended to accompany the shots of the Company journeying away from Rivendell. Though it features a brief line of the famous 'Misty Mountains' theme, the initial part is different, and clearly intended as an accompanying theme for the Company. But it seems that Jackson wanted the grand statement of the 'Misty Mountains' theme from the trailer in there. I suspect Jackson had very different ideas for the soundtrack and wasn't sold on a fair portion of it.

Hence why I hope Shore is given a chance to reinstate some of his ideas for the EE. Perhaps it was late in the process and he didn't have a chance to offer something more preferable to Jackson. That said, there are some musical changes from the soundtrack which work better, the music for the Eagle attack and flight being the most obvious example (compare to the soundtrack's 'A Good Omen'). So some care would be required, as I'd hate for that to be replaced.

Fascinating stuff. Thanks for the post. I'll be honest, I'm not familiar enough with the music to have noticed but it'll be interesting to hear the EE now if things will be switched around. Can you post what time on the tracks from the soundtrack to hear the unused music?

[roguescribner]

Originally Posted by BarnDoor

The problem with all this is that Shore's meticulous scheme for the LOTR soundtracks is almost thrown out of the window by Jackson in favour of something that to him fits the scene. We are told by someone close to Shore that it is normal for these kind of changes to occur, but there's not many really buying this, given the problems with King Kong.

It is common for this to occur. With large scale films rushing towards a deadline, it's also common (if unfortunate) for the composer to run out time to fix things and cues are reused and/or remixed to complete the film.

Hence why I hope Shore is given a chance to reinstate some of his ideas for the EE. Perhaps it was late in the process and he didn't have a chance to offer something more preferable to Jackson. That said, there are some musical changes from the soundtrack which work better, the music for the Eagle attack and flight being the most obvious example (compare to the soundtrack's 'A Good Omen'). So some care would be required, as I'd hate for that to be replaced.

Me too.

[HomerThompson]

Originally Posted by roguescribner

It is common for this to occur. With large scale films rushing towards a deadline, it's also common (if unfortunate) for the composer to run out time to fix things and cues are reused and/or remixed to complete the film.

I guess why it's more noticeable in this case is because it didn't happen with Lord of the Rings. Unless I'm mistaken, were any cues reused or unused in the trilogy?

[BarnDoor]

Originally Posted by roguescribner

It is common for this to occur. With large scale films rushing towards a deadline, it's also common (if unfortunate) for the composer to run out time to fix things and cues are reused and/or remixed to complete the film.

This is true, and it's known that Shore was working on the music up until something like a week before the film came out (and about a month before the soundtrack album recording was done). And if that's the case, I just hope he's given the chance to rectify things on the EE. I just worry because some of his great new material (for Bilbo and Radagast) appears to have gone unappreciated, in some instances for the use of familiar LOTR material. Surely this must have hurt Shore somewhat, even if he is a veteran professional of the film-scoring process.

[Grand Bob]

Originally Posted by BarnDoor

I just worry because some of his great new material (for Bilbo and Radagast) appears to have gone unappreciated, in some instances for the use of familiar LOTR material. Surely this must have hurt Shore somewhat, even if he is a veteran professional of the film-scoring process.

I believe that Jackson correctly thought that a good way to provide continuity and "tie-in" The Hobbit to the Lord of the Rings films would be by using some of the LotR music. The problem is, he overdid it to the point of making most of the original Hobbit music relatively obscure, with the exception of some themes like "Far Over the Misty Mountains". The impact of the music represents a huge difference between The Hobbit and LotR movies.

[tiger_qc]

Each of the LOTR books were longer to read than The Hobbit, the last (RotK) is twice as long. How will they make a +/- 10 hrs movie out if a 310 pages book while they made a +/- 11 hrs movie out of over 1500 pages?

There's still a lot of stuff missing in the LOTR trilogy even with the extended editions but 3 movies for The Hobbit + EEs?

Am I alone thinking it's too much?

[stvn1974]

UPS just dropped off my copy of the exclusive in a non padded bag and the slip cover is cut in half down the entire back.

[roguescribner]

Originally Posted by tiger_qc

Each of the LOTR books were longer to read than The Hobbit, the last (RotK) is twice as long. How will they make a +/- 10 hrs movie out if a 310 pages book while they made a +/- 11 hrs movie out of over 1500 pages?

There's still a lot of stuff missing in the LOTR trilogy even with the extended editions but 3 movies for The Hobbit + EEs?

Am I alone thinking it's too much?

PJ is not making a trilogy of films out of a 310 page book. He's using the 310 page book as the spine of a trilogy of films that serve as a prequel to his LOTR trilogy. So material from other sources (appendices, The Silmarillion, etc.) are being weaved into the story of The Hobbit so a fairly complete rendering of the Middle Earth universe will be on film between the two trilogies.

You can argue for or against that idea, but that's the gist of it.

[Taikero]

Originally Posted by tiger_qc

Each of the LOTR books were longer to read than The Hobbit, the last (RotK) is twice as long. How will they make a +/- 10 hrs movie out if a 310 pages book while they made a +/- 11 hrs movie out of over 1500 pages?

There's still a lot of stuff missing in the LOTR trilogy even with the extended editions but 3 movies for The Hobbit + EEs?

Am I alone thinking it's too much?

There's also the Return of the King appendices available to Jackson for The Hobbit's adaptation for the screen.

Jackson has more budget and more freedom with this trilogy than he did with the original LOTR trilogy. While I have some gripes with some parts of The Hobbit: AUJ, the gripes come less from the story and more from specific moments or the way specific parts were illustrated (Being in the goblin realm did not feel particularly dangerous, as an example, which should have carried a feeling of menace, claustrophobia, and doom).

If anything, I applaud Jackson for allowing his films room to breathe. While there is something to be said for pacing, I almost always prefer more depth than less. Immersion is something that must be weighed against pacing, and often pacing wins over immersion for many directors.

So long as Jackson at least maintains the same quality for the last two films as he achieved for AUJ, I have zero quibbles with adapting The Hobbit to three films.

[Rambaldi47]

Originally Posted by bsweetness

The 3D release of Avatar is the theatrical version. The extended cut was 2D only.

I wouldn't be surprised if a 3D extended blu-ray came out right before Avatar 2 hits theaters.

Back on-topic, I'm glad to hear that PJ has confirmed an EE of AUJ; I will hold out for that one, even if it's not in 3D.

[Todd Smith]

Originally Posted by tiger_qc

Each of the LOTR books were longer to read than The Hobbit, the last (RotK) is twice as long. How will they make a +/- 10 hrs movie out if a 310 pages book while they made a +/- 11 hrs movie out of over 1500 pages?

There's still a lot of stuff missing in the LOTR trilogy even with the extended editions but 3 movies for The Hobbit + EEs?

Am I alone thinking it's too much?

Not at all and I am right there with you. Sitting through The Hobbit once in the theater was disappointing. Sitting through it again last night at home was as bad if not worse. No way will I be watching this a 3rd time and there is no way "more" in the way of an EE for a film that is already bloated as it is will improve things.