Sony's going to try and earn it! Yeah right!

[ps3andlovinit]

Originally Posted by MrEastSide

Microsoft wasn't trying to bully anyone if you ask me.

I don't know why so many people are mad at MS for entering the console war. It makes everyone work harder and create better games. Just think if SONY and MS had never gotten into it. We'd all be playing really crappy games on the Wii right now and nothing else.

MS does try to bully everyone unfortunately. If you take a broader look at how they behave in the PC industry, around open standards, Linux etc you will see a very common behaviour of FUD and misinformation. The denial of the 360 problems for over a year now are unfortunately just symptomatic of a deeper issue that comes from a culture based on it's monopoly position.

They are stuck in the pre-web world. That's why companies like Google are killing them in the new world order. It's about a certain amount of trust and MS stock continues to sink badly in that area based on their past and current behaviours. On the 360 alone..

1. What problem? We are within industry standards
2. Then it was things break..but it's still a small problem being fanned by Sony fanbots.
3. And well now we know it's a much bigger problem than they said it was and it was their problem all along - and they knew it.

You just can't build customer relationships like that. Another one?

HDMI isn't needed - buy our premium or core instead of the PS3 because it isn't needed. Sony is trying to snow you about it's value. Then they release the Elite and some games WILL take advantage of HDMI and those premium users and core users are left holding the bag. That's just not the way to treat your customers. Your word just isn't trustworthy.

At some point they will require a HDD for 360 GAME certification and those core users systems won't seem as inexpensive anymore. And before you respond to that .. I said that both of the above would occur long before they happened/became public. Again it's about patterns of behaviour that makes certain actions predictable.

Just like IBM was stuck in a certain mentality before them and had to learn the hard way the world has changed. They still think they can control everything and those days are going despite their best efforts to hold onto it. All the proprietary 360 components are an outcome of the same thinking. Sony used standard HDDs', blutooth, BDA is a broad coalition..they are at least starting to learn that open is better than closed for their customers..in the long term. MS wants to control it all by building in barriers to entry that are not in their customers best interests. And once you taste freedom of choice you don't want the alternative..

And while it sounds like I'm bashing them..I'm actually not..If they would put that money and effort into being more OPEN they would actually be more successful than the path they have taken and continue to take..in the end they DON'T want any competition so they can charge outrageous sums of money...like they do right now for what are essentially commodities - an OS and Word processing. And this isn't just talk..the shift around me to Google mail and Google apps has been astonishing.

Competition is good - problem is once MS has enough clout in any industry - they use their deep pockets to stamp it out - and then release mediocre products to maximize their profits at the expense of consumers. Vista? 360 hardware? The Xbox was BETTER because they didn't even have a toe-hold. You are already seeing the mediocrity starting to seep in..rushing to market to beat Sony instead of building the best product for their customers. HDMI issue was simply part of that.

That's the problem from my perspective.

Again I'm just a messenger. They have a choice to actually behave in a manner that we all win - and that is actually BETTER for their bottom line. So please don't bash me for being some communist, anti-competitive love-child - more transparency is actually BETTER at increasing competition.

Blu-ray vs HD-DVD? Blu-ray is just a better technology. But since they couldn't control it completely they had to support HD-DVD. Predictable. Never in doubt.

[MrEastSide]

Well, MS denied the problems like any company likely would have. They probably hoped it would quite down, but when it didn't they had to address it. Same thing SONY did with it's faulty PS2 lasers. Acted like it was no big deal until they were slapped with a class action lawsuit. Most companies try to downplay problems and that's what MS has done.

As far as the HDMI goes, I really don't think it's a huge deal. I used components for a while on my PS3 and when I switched to HDMI didn't notice much. The only thing I noticed and like is that analog noise is eliminated. As far as the picture goes, I didn't see an earth shattering difference. And MS choose to leave it out for that reason. The only reason they added it was because so many brainwashed people begged for it cause SONY hyped it up and made it such a big deal. I don't think MS added it cause they wanted to or thought it had huge advantages, they added it because people cried about how the 360 was inferior without HDMI when it really didn't matter much.

It's just like SONY starting this "1080p Full-HD" hype. Sorry but, HD is HD. And you aren't gonna notice a $1000 dollar difference between the HD selections. If you want to be a big ass and nitpick on SONY's "Full HD" crap then I guess SONY doesn't really have full HD. I guess you don't have full HD until you own a movie theater and can watch the movie on actual film. Every company is a hype machine and or a bully trying to make money. Everyone just hates MS cause they're the richest and hold the key to almost everything.

[reiella]

Originally Posted by Maxpower1987

Right, time for a bit of a technical education here, haven't done this for a while so it may be a bit shoddy, but bear with me for just a bit.

So on one side we have the Cell and on the other side we have the three-core Xenos processor. The Cell comes in eight parts, one PPE and seven SPEs. The PPE is basically the master controller and it will hand out work for the SPEs and carry out certain tasks on its own. The Xenos is basically like a beefed up C2D with a PPC architecture/instruction set rather than x86-64 so it is able to do most tasks with relative ease as it will hand out tasks by itself, and essentially split everything evenly over the three cores.

The problem developers are having is that the PPE is a bit thick and they need to tell it what to do rather than let it work things out on its own, this is where all of the grief for the devs comes in, basically it takes a lot of time to put specific instructions into the game code, say you wanted a boulder in Drake's Fortune to fall a certain way, rather than letting the PPE work how to do it, you basically need to tell it to send the information to a certain SPE and let it do the physics work and send the new information back. I mentioned Drakes Fortune specifically because it is a first party game, lazy development houses such as EA and Activision will take the first approach and let the PPE work out where to send everything or let it do everything itself leaving the mightily powerful SPEs doing nothing, which is why a lot of third party titles don't play as well on the PS3 just yet.

Moving onto the SPEs themselves, they are basically incredible fast small processors with a small SIMD superset so they can handle small repetitive tasks with relative ease...

Right I'll finish this off later got to eat, hungry.

*blink* Pretty much you're claiming the better performance is because apparantly the Xeon can figure out thread management on its own? Just baffled there. Or that it's easier to design for 3 identical cores + GPU than it is to design for 7(6) identical cores + GPU + CPU?

Further, I didn't think the general PPE was to supposed to behave like a bridge.

[ Add ]
And Microsoft got to change the architecture of Xeno that much? Sure you aren't thinking of an Itanium there? The Xeno processor is alot closer to x64 byte-code than the Cell... Otherwise, I think some folks would have a little trouble running Server 2k on Xeno-farms.

[ps3andlovinit]

Originally Posted by MrEastSide

Well, MS denied the problems like any company likely would have.

Some companies will some won't. The ones that don't are building a long term trust relationship. Ask Honda vs GM what their philosophies have been for the last two decades and then align it with brand loyalty and word of mouth. MS denial of this problem for the period it has been going on has damaged that trust. Not volunteering is different than denying.

Originally Posted by MrEastSide

They probably hoped it would quite down, but when it didn't they had to address it.

Well that certainly makes me feel better about buying their products.

Originally Posted by MrEastSide

Same thing SONY did with it's faulty PS2 lasers. Acted like it was no big deal until they were slapped with a class action lawsuit.

I had an Xbox so I don't really know much about what when on or how long it went on or how many consoles were effected - but if it was as widespread as the RROD - at least it looks like they learned their lesson and created an even more robust machine with the PS3. Guess having their feet held to the fire had some impact then and PS3 owners are benefitting from it. The 360 was a big step backwards compared to the Xbox on the quality front. Troubling they went in the other direction once they got their foot in the door...and then denied it to add insult to injury of current owners. If you want to build trust then STOP PULLING THAT CRAP. Btw our original xbox died 3 years in with disc read problems just before xmas. Ended up "having" to buy another or face the kiddies over the xmas holidays. I had no ill will because they made a good faith effort IMO. Not so with the 360.

Originally Posted by MrEastSide

Most companies try to downplay problems and that's what MS has done.

Well as consumers we should hold any companies feet to the fire when they do that, not make apologies for them. Otherwise we end up with CRAP. DRM rootkits included.

Originally Posted by MrEastSide

As far as the HDMI goes, I really don't think it's a huge deal. I used components for a while on my PS3 and when I switched to HDMI didn't notice much. The only thing I noticed and like is that analog noise is eliminated. As far as the picture goes, I didn't see an earth shattering difference. And MS choose to leave it out for that reason. The only reason they added it was because so many brainwashed people begged for it cause SONY hyped it up and made it such a big deal. I don't think MS added it cause they wanted to or thought it had huge advantages, they added it because people cried about how the 360 was inferior without HDMI when it really didn't matter much.

Well I don't know what to say to that. Sony brainwashed people about HD Audio etc? It has nothing to do with bandwidth requirements of HD video and HD audio?. Ok I forgot MS doesn't support HD audio so better to tell people HDMI in general is useless because your not as next gen as the competition. SONY doesn't own HDMI you know. They built a future-proofed console so people wouldn't be laying out money over and over again to get the best experience. In addition a single cable vs the 5 headed hydra of component is a blessing alone - especially with more devices. There are technical reasons and benefits to HDMI for consumers - not because of Sony hype and brainwashing. Some people can actually sort thru the FUD and think it through.

Originally Posted by MrEastSide

Sorry but, HD is HD.

So why does the 360 have a premium, core and elite designation and different packaging then. A 360 is a 360 is a 360 - why not just mark them all the same in the same colour boxes with different prices on them. Your just being silly. Distinguishing 720p vs 1080p vs 1080i vs 480 is useful. 720p HD is NOT 1080p FULL HD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1080p

Originally Posted by MrEastSide

And you aren't gonna notice a $1000 dollar difference between the HD selections.

Not sure what the $1000 means but you do realize that 1080p has double the pixels of 720p right? If people want to stick with 480 DVD's on a 10 year old t.v. more power to them. I have no plans to go back to less when more is possible unless the benefits aren't worth it to me. Blu-ray is, 7.1 audio will be, and 1080p games at 60FPS are.

Originally Posted by MrEastSide

If you want to be a big ass and nitpick on SONY's "Full HD" crap then I guess SONY doesn't really have full HD. I guess you don't have full HD until you own a movie theater and can watch the movie on actual film.

It's my understanding "Full HD" is their way of distinguishing 1080p from 720p. If you look at other mfgs t.v.s in Best Buy for example you have to rely on the often incorrect and misleading Best buy signs to determine resolutions etc. In fact as I was looking for a second t.v. in the bedroom the BB rep almost did that to a customer beside me. I spoke up otherwise the guy would have went home thinking he got a deal on a 1080p t.v that was really 720p and 1080i. With the Full HD right on the bevel of the Sony t.v.'s it's pretty clear to the consumer there is a difference between Sony models...and therefore much more difficult to be misled by retailers. I don't care if why they did it but it does make it easy for me to quickly scan/confirm what I'm really looking at. I guess they could have put 1080p on there in big letters but that's the marketing people for you...they don't like geek speek. Although i would have been fine with it.

[reiella]

Originally Posted by ps3andlovinit

In addition a single cable vs the 5 headed hydra of component is a blessing alone - especially with more devices.

6 headed-hydra.

I hate the 360's component cable that shipped with my Elite, why oh why did they feel the need to include a Y Pb Br AND a RGB terminal video on the same connection .

[ add ]
I know the reason why. I just don't have to like it or agree with it . I know it has some merits, but gah .

[MrEastSide]

So why does the 360 have a premium, core and elite designation and different packaging then. A 360 is a 360 is a 360 - why not just mark them all the same in the same colour boxes with different prices on them. Your just being silly. Distinguishing 720p vs 1080p vs 1080i vs 480 is useful. 720p HD is NOT 1080p FULL HD.

A 360 is a 360 as far as video quality goes. Until the Elite came along the Core and Premium offered nothing different as far as picture quality went. The only difference was the hard drives. And if you want to say the Elite has better PQ because of the HDMI then I guess you can say that, but in reality a 360 is a 360. The only difference is the hard drive sizes or lack of a hard drive.

Like I said; I guess 1080p is not full-hd when compared to film. But, SONY started pushing this FULL-HD crap to try and trick people into thinking they needed to spend an extra $500 bucks if they wanted the best picture, when it reality the differences in PQ are minor until you get into the gigantic screen sizes.

Well I don't know what to say to that. Sony brainwashed people about HD Audio etc? It has nothing to do with bandwidth requirements of HD video and HD audio?. Ok I forgot MS doesn't support HD audio so better to tell people HDMI in general is useless because your not as next gen as the competition. SONY doesn't own HDMI you know. They built a future-proofed console so people wouldn't be laying out money over and over again to get the best experience. In addition a single cable vs the 5 headed hydra of component is a blessing alone - especially with more devices. There are technical reasons and benefits to HDMI for consumers - not because of Sony hype and brainwashing. Some people can actually sort thru the FUD and think it through.

And about 200 million PC gamers would disagree that any console is future proof. And as much as I hate PC fanboys, it's sort of true. The PS3 and 360 will seem obsolete in 2 years. So it's hardly future proof. I think SONY told some white lies as to how long the console would really be a useful item. They claimed 10 years. I'm willing to be we see a PS4 within' 5 years. While I agree with you on a lot of MS's bullshitting, you have to admit that SONY has done more than their fair share. And I'm sure you realize that so I'm not saying you are a blind follower. I was simply pointing out that I don't think MS is as evil a company as everyone wants to think.

Btw our original xbox died 3 years in with disc read problems just before xmas. Ended up "having" to buy another or face the kiddies over the xmas holidays. I had no ill will because they made a good faith effort IMO. Not so with the 360.

I agree that the number of failing 360s seems very unacceptable, but you have to admit it's pretty generous of them to extend the warranty to 3 years. Granted if people hadn't made such a big stink about it they probably wouldn't have, but they still did.

I agree with most of the other stuff you said. I was simply saying most companies downplay their problems. Very few come right up front and admit something right away. To some extent they let it play out and see if it goes away without them having to say anything.

[cruzzer cruz]

Originally Posted by Azza

Pshhh, 7 is the most overrated game in history proven fact, 9 is to underrated.

Sorry, I'd really love to comment on this entire thread, but this is making me laugh so hard, I really can't create a coherent thought.

HAHAHAHAA!!! Man oh man, how misguided some people are.

(I'd also really like to know what this person's definition of "proven fact" is. Maybe it's whatever their friends or older, cooler siblings told them)

[Azza]

Originally Posted by cruzzer cruz

Sorry, I'd really love to comment on this entire thread, but this is making me laugh so hard, I really can't create a coherent thought.

HAHAHAHAA!!! Man oh man, how misguided some people are.

(I'd also really like to know what this person's definition of "proven fact" is. Maybe it's whatever their friends or older, cooler siblings told them)

Looks like we got to go offtopic.

FF7 is overrated, no denying its an amazing game, but its overrated in the sense that people call it the greatest game in the series, but the story is so incomplete and contains many plot holes IMO.

Now this can end.