Sony just ***** me

[Xerios]

soo if a user has 2 ps3s in the household he should not share between those ps3s because some1 else other than himself can come over and play?

(your obvious answer is no he can share to himself)

but what if he wants to give that ps3 away or sell it to a friend, he is spose to delete all the games already installed on it because than the friend is reaping the benefits??

you surely cant agree that psn sharing is anything like torrents... torrents are masses benefitting off a few people who bought something

[PA_Kid]

you have to look at it from a corporate point of view like companys do. the way the user terms are laid out is there is only one owner of a ps3, not multiple.

I'm just musing here guys, try not to take it so personally. (Not necessarily directed at you un4gvn94538, just in general.

To be honest, here is a point that I just flat out do not know the answer to - maybe someone else here with more of a law background does.

If the law allows two people to jointly purchase something like a PS3 (not sure if that's even allowable, though I know it is for property), can a company's user agreement superceed that? I really have no idea, but if you can, that makes things problematic.

Petra, you mention that "Sony should be able to analyze usage logs for the accounts in question that appear to be sharing content. With a simple series of several questions compared to usage logs, they could determine if the OP is lying to them."

That might be true, but I wonder how much it would cost and if it's worth it. One company I worked for paid claims on errors made by employees that resulted in a financial penalties for the companies that used us. At a certain point it was decided to auto-pay any claims under a specific dollar threshold regardless of whether they were legitimate or not - we determined that the cost in doing full research of those low dollar claims (plus potentially arguing a denied claim) cost us more than we saved.

Like I said guys, I'm not trying to get something for nothing or suggest anyone should. I just find the whole thing an interesting discussion and a philosophical, business, and legal level.

[Sponge-worthy]

Originally Posted by PA_Kid

If the law allows two people to jointly purchase something like a PS3 (not sure if that's even allowable, though I know it is for property), can a company's user agreement superceed that? I really have no idea, but if you can, that makes things problematic.

Why would Sony care about that?

[PA_Kid]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

Yes, you do make some valid points IN THIS POST! However, the rest of your diatribe on the subject just comes across as a spokesperson for people looking to find a way in which they can bend the rules and get away with it. Regardless of whether you state that you "are against piracy" afterwards or not, you seem to be defending the actions of illegal content sharing.

Ummm... in my first post: (bold is my emphasis now)

It's a problematic concept that is open to twisting and abuse though. You statement is not exactly true - it's not a case of theft when my wife plays a game I purchased just because I'm not there and she logs in on her PSN id.

I think the rampant sharing in general is a theft and should be restricted/addressed, but when you are talking family, it's a bit more problematic. (And I can see examples provided in family-type situations where it is and is not an abuse.)

I would hope that Sony would avoid getting involved in situations where a whole set of purchased content is activated on specific systems, regardless of where they systems sit - it just seems like it wouldn't be worth punishing the guy that has a system at home and school or bought one for a family member just to catch the two friends who have decided to buy a lot of stuff and share it and split the cost.

When it becomes things like we've seen here where owners are trading download slots for betas and such with people they have never even met, I have less sympathy.

Not sure where you get me being a spokesman for people trying to do this.

Some highlights from the following posts:

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for Sony and the developers seeing more money and diminishing piracy. All I'm saying is that by going the 5 system route (which I love since I have 2 and a PSP myself), they've made it a quagmire that will be very hard to administer 100% effectively.

Completely agree with you, though I'm not talking as much about the merits but the administration. How does Sony figure out which of these are the above scenario or two buddies that have just decided to save a few bucks by illegally sharing?

I think/hope you would be hardpressed to accurately quote me saying that I support piracy or that I think it is acceptable for someone to share when they should be buying their own copy. My points were just that for most rules you build you can probably build a counter case that is a legitimate use being "caught in the crossfire" and that administering the whole thing and addressing customer concerns and taking all the customer contact may be more trouble than its worth to Sony at times.

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by Xerios

soo if a user has 2 ps3s in the household he should not share between those ps3s because some1 else other than himself can come over and play?

(your obvious answer is no he can share to himself)

but what if he wants to give that ps3 away or sell it to a friend, he is spose to delete all the games already installed on it because than the friend is reaping the benefits??

you surely cant agree that psn sharing is anything like torrents... torrents are masses benefitting off a few people who bought something

PSN sharing IS a torrent. Whether 40,000,000 people gain access to a piece of content without paying for it or 1 person gains access to a piece of content without paying for it, it is still NOT PAYING for something that is for sale. It is a pretty straightforward concept of theft in both scenarios. One cannot dimishing the signifigance because there appears to be a "lesser of two evils" perspectives involved.

And, if my bestest of friends bought my PS3, I would sure as hell delete my account and everything on the Hard Drive... if for no other reason than avoiding any potential situation as has been encountered by the OP.

[PA_Kid]

Originally Posted by ryan69969

Why would Sony care about that?

I was just replying to un4gvn94538's comment that it doesn't matter if two people chip in for a PS3 because Sony views it as only having one owner. I'm not even sure if his statement is correct - just saying I'm not sure that Sony could decide that something can't be co-purchased - sometimes rights like that superceed any user agreement.

We've gotten pretty far afield for the orginal point of the thread and I seem to be the only one interested in discussing it at a hypothetical level - so in the interest of not riling people up anymore, I'll shut up now.

[king_patrick_7]

just go back to the people you shared with and get some of the games back from them

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by PA_Kid

I think/hope you would be hardpressed to accurately quote me saying that I support piracy or that I think it is acceptable for someone to share when they should be buying their own copy. My points were just that for most rules you build you can probably build a counter case that is a legitimate use being "caught in the crossfire" and that administering the whole thing and addressing customer concerns and taking all the customer contact may be more trouble than its worth to Sony at times.

I'm not saying you stated that you specifically support piracy. In fact, I made it clear that I acknowledged your view on piracy by stating that whether you say "I'm against piracy" after your arguement or not, the arguement itself still sounds like you are attempting to make the grey area even bigger. It really felt like, whether intentionally or not, you were empowering those that believe and partake in the activity of PSN sharing with said arguement.

I believe that someone else in this thread also acknowledged this. I'm too tired and too busy to retread, but I could swear somebody mentioned it.

[Sponge-worthy]

Originally Posted by PA_Kid

I was just replying to un4gvn94538's comment that it doesn't matter if two people chip in for a PS3 because Sony views it as only having one owner. I'm not even sure if his statement is correct - just saying I'm not sure that Sony could decide that something can't be co-purchased - sometimes rights like that superceed any user agreement.

We've gotten pretty far afield for the orginal point of the thread and I seem to be the only one interested in discussing it at a hypothetical level - so in the interest of not riling people up anymore, I'll shut up now.

Since you don't agree to a TOS when you physically purchase a PS3, then certainly two people could share ownership of the physical device. Different story for PSN accounts, however.

I can guess your next hypothetical: "What if four (4) people each buy a PS3? They each pay $298, and I chip in $1--making me co-owner of each unit. Can I put all my PSN stuff on each PS3 since they're partly mine?"

The problem with hypotheticals is that they can go on forever. Refer to the concepts of "good faith," "bad faith," and "reasonableness" if you truly need guidance on this issue.

[mywhitenoise]

It really amazes me how uptight some people are on here. Last week I was mentioning how sutpid Digital Copies/DVDs bundled with Blu-Rays are, and how they increase the price by $10 for inferior additions. I said "why have both a digital copy and DVD, when you can just rip the DVD if you want it on your iPod that bad?" and this dude went off on me saying "theft is wrong!" "You're the reason prices go up!"
Such a stupid argument. I wonder if he buys the same CD every time he wants to hear a song off that album.

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by mywhitenoise

It really amazes me how uptight some people are on here. Last week I was mentioning how sutpid Digital Copies/DVDs bundled with Blu-Rays are, and how they increase the price by $10 for inferior additions. I said "why have both a digital copy and DVD, when you can just rip the DVD if you want it on your iPod that bad?" and this dude went off on me saying "theft is wrong!" "You're the reason prices go up!"
Such a stupid argument. I wonder if he buys the same CD every time he wants to hear a song off that album.

But, that person would be wrong. Ripping a DVD is not illegal if it is for your own personal use. You already paid for the content. Now, if you rip the DVD and proceed to hand that digital copy off to others who have NOT paid for it from a legitimate retailer or if you post it online for anyone to acquire, then THAT falls under the category of "illegal activity." Clearly the individual that went off on you is ignorant of the facts. DVDs can be ripped for personal use so that you may prolong the life of your hard media purchase.

Digital Copy should be a download, not a disc. DVDs should not be included with Blu-rays UNLESS their is a Blu-ray sku available with only the Blu-ray disc in the case.

Back on topic though...

[Sponge-worthy]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

Ripping a DVD is not illegal if it is for your own personal use.

It's illegal in the U.S.

[Skillz5]

I have a similar issue. I would like for Sony to change the access the "Owner" of the PSN account can activate and deactivate any PS3 or PSP. Currently we must have the actual system logged in to deactivate the specific system. I recommend that when we access our actvation/deactivation settings under Account Managment, we are able to see all 5 of our activated systems. That way if there is an activated system in the world somewhere, we are able to control our own account.

In my situation I had a YLOD and was unable to deactivate my system. When I sent my PS3 in for repair, Sony sent me a new refurbished system and would not deactivate the account from that lost machine - even though it was Sony's decision not to fix the unit, but send me a new one.

This access to our own accounts needs to be addressed Sony.

[doctorD]

Wow...some interesting conversations! What ever happened to people being honest? The rules/restrictions are there for a reason. A person bending them most likely know what they are doing before they do it.

OP, if your situation was an honest mistake I hope you get this resolved and for obvious reasons be more careful next time. But you have to understand that Sony has to protect themselves and the developers. I would hate to see this type of situation become a major problem and developers stop creating games for our platform. You only need to look at what is going on with the PC gaming market (personally my platform preference of choice).

[Petra_Kalbrain]

Originally Posted by Skillz5

I have a similar issue. I would like for Sony to change the access the "Owner" of the PSN account can activate and deactivate any PS3 or PSP. Currently we must have the actual system logged in to deactivate the specific system. I recommend that when we access our actvation/deactivation settings under Account Managment, we are able to see all 5 of our activated systems. That way if there is an activated system in the world somewhere, we are able to control our own account.

In my situation I had a YLOD and was unable to deactivate my system. When I sent my PS3 in for repair, Sony sent me a new refurbished system and would not deactivate the account from that lost machine - even though it was Sony's decision not to fix the unit, but send me a new one.

This access to our own accounts needs to be addressed Sony.

I was able to recover my account when I got mine back. It was the same system, but with something new inside. It still registered as a new system. Are you saying that you couldn't use your original PSN account? Or did you even bother to try? I'm not certain that I understand your situation completely.

That idea about being able to manage where your account is located and on which systems is tricky. The other PS3s in questions would actually have to be online with your account in order to track them. And, in that case, you wouldn't be able to get online to check the information since you would be kicked off when the other system logs on. Vice versa, when you are logged in to check the info, the other system wouldn't be visible since you would have kicked your account offline on the other system.

[PA_Kid]

Originally Posted by Skillz5

I have a similar issue. I would like for Sony to change the access the "Owner" of the PSN account can activate and deactivate any PS3 or PSP. Currently we must have the actual system logged in to deactivate the specific system. I recommend that when we access our actvation/deactivation settings under Account Managment, we are able to see all 5 of our activated systems. That way if there is an activated system in the world somewhere, we are able to control our own account.

In my situation I had a YLOD and was unable to deactivate my system. When I sent my PS3 in for repair, Sony sent me a new refurbished system and would not deactivate the account from that lost machine - even though it was Sony's decision not to fix the unit, but send me a new one.

This access to our own accounts needs to be addressed Sony.

I'm pretty sure someone else recently indicated they had the same issue and was able to fix it by calling Sony. Are you saying the you got a customer service rep to acknowledge that your system was unable to be accessed prior to the replacement, but they still said they couldn't deactivate that account? I'm pretty sure that you should be able to get them to fix that for you.

Not sure I see a need to be able to deactivate it remotely - on the off chance something happens like you mention or your PS3 is stolen, I'm sure that you can get someone to fix it. Otherwise the system should be in your control to deactivate 99.99% of the time before it goes away. (I'd be very surprised if you sent them a copy of a police report for a stolen PS3 that they wouldn't fix it for you if able.)

[Xerios]

Originally Posted by Petra_Kalbrain

PSN sharing IS a torrent. Whether 40,000,000 people gain access to a piece of content without paying for it or 1 person gains access to a piece of content without paying for it, it is still NOT PAYING for something that is for sale. It is a pretty straightforward concept of theft in both scenarios. One cannot dimishing the signifigance because there appears to be a "lesser of two evils" perspectives involved.

And, if my bestest of friends bought my PS3, I would sure as hell delete my account and everything on the Hard Drive... if for no other reason than avoiding any potential situation as has been encountered by the OP.

no, when you buy a game off PSN you are buying a Multi-Licensed copy of a software, how you choose to use those 5 license's is up to the user once he or she has purchased it... thats my view point.... that is in no way shape or form a torrent...

[mywhitenoise]

Originally Posted by Skillz5

I recommend that when we access our actvation/deactivation settings under Account Managment, we are able to see all 5 of our activated systems. That way if there is an activated system in the world somewhere, we are able to control our own account.

I would LOVE that! But beggars can't be choosers, Sony is being pretty liberal as it is. Though it will suck if my PS3 gets the YLOD and I get screwed while my friends still have my content.

[AikonEnt]

I have a question about the deactivation thing. I'll shortly be getting a slim to replace my YLOD PS3. I'll be logging on with the same account and most likely re-downloading all the games and content I got off PSN. Now I'm assuming this will count as download number 2 of my allotted 5? If my original PS3 isn't fixed and just remains as a big black shiny ornament how do I deactivate it so my download count goes back to 1, or can't I do that? If not I hope I never get to my 6th PS3 or I'll have to re-buy everything

Also what about stuff that was free, is that limited to 5 times also (although if it was still free it wouldn't really matter!).

[Xerios]

Originally Posted by AikonEnt

I have a question about the deactivation thing. I'll shortly be getting a slim to replace my YLOD PS3. I'll be logging on with the same account and most likely re-downloading all the games and content I got off PSN. Now I'm assuming this will count as download number 2 of my allotted 5? If my original PS3 isn't fixed and just remains as a big black shiny ornament how do I deactivate it so my download count goes back to 1, or can't I do that? If not I hope I never get to my 6th PS3 or I'll have to re-buy everything

Also what about stuff that was free, is that limited to 5 times also (although if it was still free it wouldn't really matter!).

yes it will count as 2
if you cant get to the XMB you cant deactivate so it will always be #2
Free stuff is unlimited downloading