Favorite Westerns?

[Oblivion138]

Originally Posted by BostonMA22

The Searchers has psychological elements to it no doubt (just as almost EVERY WESTERN has), but it's first and foremost a Western.

The Treasure of Sierra Madre and No Country for Old Men are not first and foremost of the Western genre, which is why they shouldn't be mentioned.

You have to explain why they're not westerns...you can't just state as a fact that they're not, and leave it at that, as you've done repeatedly now. What makes these films not westerns? What disqualifies them? Treasure of the Sierra Madre takes place in a traditional western setting, and features characters whose motivations are no different than those of many characters in traditional westerns. How is it not a western, then? Simply because it's also something else? Is MASH not allowed to be a war film, because it's "first and foremost" a comedy?

It seems you're being a bit of a Genre Nazi here.

[Cowboy]

The Good, The Bad and The Ugly
Once Upon a time in the West
High Noon
The Searchers
For a Few Dollars More
Unforgiven
Stagecoach
Dances with Wolves
The Outlaw Josey Wales
Jeremiah Johnson
The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford
Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid

and a personal guilty pleasure: The Mountain Men (1980)

Lonesome Dove is one of the greatest Westerns ever made but I will not compare it to a feature film the same way I will not include BoB in a War list.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by BostonMA22

IMO, there are TOO many films being listed as Westerns that are simply not of that genre. No Country for Old Men is first and foremost a crime drama, and The Treasure of Sierra Madre is a 'drama' (perhaps a psychological thriller, but certainly NOT a Western).

if the films of the "Western" genre were so waveringly listed then i'd be here all day.

The Treasure of the Sierra Madre is pretty iffy but No Country for Old Men strikes me as very much a western.

First off, it is not a crime drama. The central theme is change; Tommy Lee Jones is a character out of his time, who feels his time is passing; civilization is in conflict with lawlessness - these are all classic western themes and the undeveloped, underpopulated border setting isn't just a 'pretty picture' backdrop, it's very much a character in the film.

The civilization/lawlessness conflict is particularly interesting. Think about the evolution of westerns...first we get your basic 'taming of the west' Cowboys and Indians stories. Then the fight to bring pockets of law and order to the lawless fronteir. Then comes civilization and conflicts between mining interests and cattlemen and ranchers and whatnot. And then finally civilization choking out the last vestiges of the frontier lifestyles. That last one was a pretty common theme in modern westerns and civilization was almost always at least in part the bad guy.

NCFOM kind of takes that last stage and turns it on its head - it's really the same basic conflict between order and chaos but civilization is the good guy, the 'old way' worth preserving.

There's a lot more there than a simple crime drama.

[Cowboy]

Originally Posted by octagon

The Treasure of the Sierra Madre is pretty iffy but No Country for Old Men strikes me as very much a western.

First off, it is not a crime drama. The central theme is change; Tommy Lee Jones is a character out of his time, who feels his time is passing; civilization is in conflict with lawlessness - these are all classic western themes and the undeveloped, underpopulated border setting isn't just a 'pretty picture' backdrop, it's very much a character in the film.

The civilization/lawlessness conflict is particularly interesting. Think about the evolution of westerns...first we get your basic 'taming of the west' Cowboys and Indians stories. Then the fight to bring pockets of law and order to the lawless fronteir. The comes civilization and conflicts between mining interests and cattlemen and ranchers and whatnot. And then finally civilization choking out the last vestiges of the frontier lifestyles. That last one was a pretty common theme in modern westerns and civilization was almost always at least in part the bad guy.

NCFOM kind of takes that last step and turns it on its head - it's really the same basic conflict between order and chaos but civilization is the good guy, the 'old way' worth preserving.

There's a lot more there than a simple crime drama.

I would say in a sense that it is a modern western but I guess not in the traditional form. I would have no problem with it being on a list, although I would not personally include it on a Western list of mine.

[octagon]

Originally Posted by Cowboy

I would say in a sense that it is a modern western but I guess not in the traditional form. I would have no problem with it being on a list, although I would not personally include it on a Western list of mine.

The first time I saw NCFOM I thought it was kinda sorta like a western. I watched it again several nights ago and thought 'forget kinda sorta'. Then last night I watched The Wild Bunch and the Peckinpah documentary and the twenty minutes of yammering I did in the earlier post all sort of fell into place in my head.

The point being - I can totally understand somebody thinking 'well, okay, maybe'

[HonestJohn]

Tough question, so many to choose from. Just to name a few ...

The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly
For a Few Dollars More
Fistful of Dollars
Outlaw Josey Wales (Coming Soon)
Jeremiah Johnson (No Blu)
A Man Called Horse
Big Jake
The Cowboys
True Grit (Wayne) (Haven't seen new version)
Rio Bravo
The Wild Bunch
Once Upon A Time in the West
The Magnificent Seven
Support Your Local Sheriff/Gunfighter (No Blu)

[Pirate King]

I would define a "Western" as a film taking place in the western part of the United States. (Hince the name Western). I would also define a Western as having horses and guns.... and.... would define it as having taken place in the 1800's. I guess there may be a few films out there that could be called Western that would not fit my definations. (Taking place in Australia or Mexico) but generaly speaking... that is what I would call a Western.

Sometimes the only difference between a Western and a War movie is the time frame. If it takes place in Dodge City in 1875,, Western... if it is 1944 Germany... its a war movie. I can kinda see Sierra Madre as western... But cannot see "No Country for Old Men" (Which is an outstanding film).

You certainly (again in my opinion) need cowboys with horses.

And as I said earlier.. Would love to have Blu Ray releases of "Shane" and "High Noon"

[blufellas]

The Good, The Bad and The Ugly

[Alex DeLarge]

Jarmusch's DEAD MAN, Altman's MCCABE AND MRS. MILLER, Hillcoat's THE PROPOSITION. To name just a few of my favorites.

[Al_The_Strange]

Saw "Duck You Sucker!" earlier today. I'd still call it one of my favorites; I found it quite thrilling.

[yhzmr]

The Western may be my favorite genre of film. No other genre may be considered uniquely American. Its appeal lies in its sweeping vistas, simplicity and its celebration of masculinity. Certainly anything that has the name Wayne, Eastwood or Peckinpah associated with it is worth a look. So far it has been a great year for Westerns on bluray. However there's a lot of great films yet to be released such as 50's output by Anthony Mann and Budd Boetticher. There has yet to be a bluray release from perhaps the best Western actor ever which in my opinion is Sam Elliott. RIP James Arness.

[BostonMA22]

Originally Posted by Oblivion138

You have to explain why they're not westerns...you can't just state as a fact that they're not, and leave it at that, as you've done repeatedly now. What makes these films not westerns? What disqualifies them? Treasure of the Sierra Madre takes place in a traditional western setting, and features characters whose motivations are no different than those of many characters in traditional westerns. How is it not a western, then? Simply because it's also something else? Is MASH not allowed to be a war film, because it's "first and foremost" a comedy?

It seems you're being a bit of a Genre Nazi here.

a Nazi? no, definitely not.

i did little explanation because i thought it was unnecessary but here we go:

the Western genre is a story taking place in the AMERICAN OLD WEST, hence the term WESTERN. the genre is one of the most popular and influential genres in all of film, with countless films pertaining to nearly ALL genres derviriving influence from it, like Star Wars, which belongs to the drama SCI-FI, and Sword of Doom, a film of the Samurai genre.

now, it may be easier to look at Huston's masterpiece and the Coens' career best as movies of the Western genre due to the Western part of the United States backdrop but make no mistake, these films DO NOT take place during the the absolutely necessary time period, which like i have stated earlier, is the American Old West.

perhaps you view the genre in a much looser manner than i but really, i do not understand that, because if that's the case then the genre itself becomes non-existent, any film being able to be matched with any genre, and that IMO is defeats the purpose of setting up a thread under a specific genre, which is what i'm getting at.

Originally Posted by octagon

The Treasure of the Sierra Madre is pretty iffy but No Country for Old Men strikes me as very much a western.

First off, it is not a crime drama. The central theme is change; Tommy Lee Jones is a character out of his time, who feels his time is passing; civilization is in conflict with lawlessness - these are all classic western themes and the undeveloped, underpopulated border setting isn't just a 'pretty picture' backdrop, it's very much a character in the film.

The civilization/lawlessness conflict is particularly interesting. Think about the evolution of westerns...first we get your basic 'taming of the west' Cowboys and Indians stories. Then the fight to bring pockets of law and order to the lawless fronteir. Then comes civilization and conflicts between mining interests and cattlemen and ranchers and whatnot. And then finally civilization choking out the last vestiges of the frontier lifestyles. That last one was a pretty common theme in modern westerns and civilization was almost always at least in part the bad guy.

NCFOM kind of takes that last stage and turns it on its head - it's really the same basic conflict between order and chaos but civilization is the good guy, the 'old way' worth preserving.

There's a lot more there than a simple crime drama.

Octagon, i never used the term 'crime drama' in a simple way. the genre features some of the greatest films ever made, and No Country for Old Men fits in firstly with it. the film certainly has many Western aspects to it (as does Heat and Seven Samurai), and like i said earlier, the fact that the story takes place in the same land that served as the Old West 200 years before it makes it seem very much like a Western candidate, but the fact of the matter is that it takes place in the modern world, where that time period is now dead.



very true, that many films, especially these (The Treasure of Sierra Madre and NCFOM), have several elements of the Western, but for me, a Western in thee sense of the term NEEDS to take place in its time period. if you choose to ignore that extremely important bullet point then like i said earlier, we would be here ALL DAY listing (Heat, Seven Samurai, Star Wars, Sword of Doom to barely start off) and the genre would lose its qualifying importance that has made it so special.

[Oblivion138]

Originally Posted by BostonMA22

a Nazi? no, definitely not.

i did little explanation because i thought it was unnecessary but here we go:

the Western genre is a story taking place in the AMERICAN OLD WEST, hence the term WESTERN. the genre is one of the most popular and influential genres in all of film, with countless films pertaining to nearly ALL genres derviriving influence from it, like Star Wars, which belongs to the drama SCI-FI, and Sword of Doom, a film of the Samurai genre.

now, it may be easier to look at Huston's masterpiece and the Coens' career best as movies of the Western genre due to the Western part of the United States backdrop but make no mistake, these films DO NOT take place during the the absolutely necessary time period, which like i have stated earlier, is the American Old West.

So The Proposition is not a western, then, since it takes place during the right time period, but the wrong locale. Namely, the Australian outback. Funny...it's been roundly referred to as a western by pretty much everyone, including renowned film critics and film historians, who certainly know a western when they see one. So which is right in this case? Your rigid definition, or...well, basically everyone else?

For me, the "Western" is more about the conventions and common themes of the genre than anything else. By this point, I think that setting and/or era are the kinds of trappings that are virtually beside the point. Which is how everyone instinctively knows bloody well that The Proposition is a western, even though it doesn't take place in America, let alone the American west. Because thematically, it's a western, and it follows genre convention.

[amazon13]

The Magnificent Seven
Once Upon a time in the West
The Good, The Bad and The Ugly

[warrenoates61]

Originally Posted by svecaj

Italian westerns:
1. Once Upon a Time in the West (Sergio Leone, 1968)
2. The Good, the Bad and the Ugly (Sergio Leone, 1966)
3. Face to Face (Sergio Sollima, 1967)
4. The Big Gundown (Sergio Sollima, 1966)
5. The Great Silence (Sergio Corbucci, 1968)
6. The Mercenary (Sergio Corbucci, 1968)
7. For a Few Dollars More (Sergio Leone, 1965)
8. Death Rides a Horse (Giulio Petroni, 1967)
9. Duck, You Sucker! (Sergio Leone, 1971)
10. Django Kill... If You Live, Shoot! (Giulio Questi, 1967)

American westerns:
1. The Wild Bunch (Sam Peckinpah, 1969)
2. McCabe & Mrs. Miller (Robert Altman, 1971)
3. Pat Garrett & Billy the Kid (Sam Peckinpah, 1973)
4. Dead Man (Jim Jarmusch, 1995)
5. Ulzana's Raid (Robert Aldrich, 1972)
6. The Hired Hand (Peter Fonda, 1971)
7. The Culpepper Cattle Co. (Dick Richards, 1972)
8. High Plains Drifter (Clint Eastwood, 1973)
9. The Outlaw Josey Wales (Clint Eastwood, 1976)
10. The Professionals (Richard Brooks, 1966)

i agree with you on most of your choices but the hired hand is my favorite have a poster of it my living room!

[BostonMA22]

Originally Posted by Oblivion138

So The Proposition is not a western, then, since it takes place during the right time period, but the wrong locale. Namely, the Australian outback. Funny...it's been roundly referred to as a western by pretty much everyone, including renowned film critics and film historians, who certainly know a western when they see one. So which is right in this case? Your rigid definition, or...well, basically everyone else?

For me, the "Western" is more about the conventions and common themes of the genre than anything else. By this point, I think that setting and/or era are the kinds of trappings that are virtually beside the point. Which is how everyone instinctively knows bloody well that The Proposition is a western, even though it doesn't take place in America, let alone the American west. Because thematically, it's a western, and it follows genre convention.

no. the time period is good enough, especially since the Australian Outback greatly resembles the American Old West in terms of the land and the people who inhabit it. i should've been more specific (or less in this case) but yeah, i think you knew the point i was making..

if you name No Country for Old Men and even The Treasure of Sierra Madre as MODERN Westerns then you can surely note Star Wars and Alien as SPACE Westerns, along with Yojimbo and Sanjuro as SAMURAI Westerns, and don't forget to go back to the MODERN Western to list The Book of Eli, The Postman, The Road Warrior....ETC, ETC, ETC...



your posts seem to carry a layer of hostility and i'm not sure why. all i'm doing is showing why the Western genre needs to be specific, because like i said earlier, it needs to be. if it is not, then it loses its importance and ceases to be a genre altogether. the fact that so many different films from so many genres have been influenced by Westerns make nearly EVERY film seem to qualify for a position in the genre. when you have films like Assault of Precinct 13 and Near Dark on your list of Top WESTERNS you know you have a problem with arrangement.



now...if you or someone else would like to make a list involving several SUBgenres of thee Western genre then i'm all for it, but seeing Once Upon a Time in the West and The Searchers lumped together with Battlestar Galactica and Taxi Driver makes me stop and question what exactly is going on.

[crow2k5]

The Outlaw Josey Whales
Unforgiven
The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly
Open Range
Silverado

[Alan A]

Would love a blu-ray of Rooster Cogburn, yes I would!

[iam1bearcat]

mine is very easily...

The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford

i personally cannot stand Westerns, for whatever reason, but i love this film.

[wormraper]

Originally Posted by iam1bearcat

mine is very easily...

The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford



i personally cannot stand Westerns, for whatever reason, but i love this film.

lol, must be why you liked it. I lOVE good westerns. but I hated this movie with a living passion