Midway (1976)

[HD Goofnut]

Originally Posted by Monroville

I think you have to give MIDWAY a bit of slack, to the degree that it was made in 1976. They simply had to make due with what they had (much like how Patton tanks were used as nazi tanks in BATTLE OF THE BULGE). In the 1980's they could do models, and nowadays they can do CGI. Back then, they were damn near having to MacGyver movies like this together.

So yeah, the F6F is "supposed" to be a F4F, just like those Patton tanks in BOTB are supposed to be Tigers (hey, at least KELLY'S HEROES tried with the wood paneling over the Sherman tanks used for the 3 Tigers in the town).

That bit with the Vindicator-Dauntless-Avenger-F6F is pretty funny though.

Just to clarify, the primary German tanks involved in the Battle of the Bulge were the Panzer IV and the Panther G also known as the Panzer V. There were some Tigers (Panzer VI) involved in the overall assault, but it compromised mainly of the two other tanks. The Panther, particularly the G model, was easily the best tank of WWII.

[Dex Robinson]

Originally Posted by Monroville

I think you have to give MIDWAY a bit of slack, to the degree that it was made in 1976. They simply had to make due with what they had ...

I completely agree.

I'm an aviation nut myself and learned to fly in '76. But I get really tired of hearing aviation buffs pick apart films. It's not actually too bad here but on on some of the aviation forums it's brutal.

Airplane guys will find ANYTHING and EVERYTHING to complain about and it's really tiresome. Fact is (and it is a FACT) that every dramatic film employing airplanes has to do what they can and it's never close to perfect. THE LONGEST DAY has Korean War era Douglas Skyraiders flying towards Normandy. CAPTAINS OF THE CLOUDS has the Nazis flying a British Hawker Hurricane. In a modern CGI film like FLYBOYS, people complain that the planes are too fast and nimble. My fellow airplane buffs need to lighten up.

I'll make a deal with aviation guys who want to complain about the airplanes in MIDWAY. If you're so smart, tell me what type of plane chubby young Dex Robinson is sitting in (circa 1970) and I will give you free reign to complain and I'll shut my mouth :

[slick1ru2]

Originally Posted by Monroville

I think you have to give MIDWAY a bit of slack, to the degree that it was made in 1976. They simply had to make due with what they had (much like how Patton tanks were used as nazi tanks in BATTLE OF THE BULGE). In the 1980's they could do models, and nowadays they can do CGI. Back then, they were damn near having to MacGyver movies like this together.

So yeah, the F6F is "supposed" to be a F4F, just like those Patton tanks in BOTB are supposed to be Tigers (hey, at least KELLY'S HEROES tried with the wood paneling over the Sherman tanks used for the 3 Tigers in the town).

That bit with the Vindicator-Dauntless-Avenger-F6F is pretty funny though.

M47 Patton tanks were used in Patton for the Nazis too. And M48 for the Sherman.

They were using Spanish Army equipment.

[Duffy12]

Originally Posted by Monroville

I think you have to give MIDWAY a bit of slack, to the degree that it was made in 1976. They simply had to make due with what they had (much like how Patton tanks were used as nazi tanks in BATTLE OF THE BULGE). In the 1980's they could do models, and nowadays they can do CGI. Back then, they were damn near having to MacGyver movies like this together.

So yeah, the F6F is "supposed" to be a F4F, just like those Patton tanks in BOTB are supposed to be Tigers (hey, at least KELLY'S HEROES tried with the wood paneling over the Sherman tanks used for the 3 Tigers in the town).

That bit with the Vindicator-Dauntless-Avenger-F6F is pretty funny though.

Yea, I agree.

I actually LOVE the stock shots of the US carrier battle groups. It gives a brief feeling that you really there watching it, instead of a staged version with well known actors such as Heston, Fonda, Coburn, Ford, Holbrook, Selleck, Mitchum and SPECIALLY Erik Estrada.

The ONLY real time that the stock footage takes me out of the film Midway is when they show F4U Corsair in it, because those bent wings really stands out like a sore thumb.

Also, regarding those Tigers from Kelly's Heroes, they were Russian/Yugoslav T34s made up to look like them, from what I remember.

Originally Posted by slick1ru2

M47 Patton tanks were used in Patton for the Nazis too. And M48 for the Sherman.

They were using Spanish Army equipment.

Oh man! Those German/Pattons are another eyesore for me. I HATE them! One of the rare instances that make it hard for me to sit through some WWII European Theater films from the 60's-70's. At least the film Patton had those German aircraft that they kept flying all throughout the film. LOL

Also Band of Brothers did a fantastic job of remodeling some of their film armor too.

.

[slick1ru2]

Originally Posted by HD Goofnut

Just to clarify, the primary German tanks involved in the Battle of the Bulge were the Panzer IV and the Panther G also known as the Panzer V. There were some Tigers (Panzer VI) involved in the overall assault, but it compromised mainly of the two other tanks. The Panther, particularly the G model, was easily the best tank of WWII.

If the Pershing made it into the war sooner and had its power plant issue fixed it probably would take that title. It was equal in firepower and armor.

[HD Goofnut]

Originally Posted by slick1ru2

If the Pershing made it into the war sooner and had its power plant issue fixed it probably would take that title. It was equal in firepower and armor.

I agree, but it did not. The same can be said about the 190 versus the Mustang, but it simply came too late to make a difference.

[Dubstar]

Originally Posted by Duffy12

Yea, I agree.

I actually LOVE the stock shots of the US carrier battle groups. It gives a brief feeling that you really there watching it, instead of a staged version with well known actors such as Heston, Fonda, Coburn, Ford, Holbrook, Selleck, Mitchum and SPECIALLY Erik Estrada.

The ONLY real time that the stock footage takes me out of the film Midway is when they show F4U Corsair in it, because those bent wings really stands out like a sore thumb.

Also, regarding those Tigers from Kelly's Heroes, they were Russian/Yugoslav T34s made up to look like them, from what I remember.





Oh man! Those German/Pattons are another eyesore for me. I HATE them! One of the rare instances that make it hard for me to sit through some WWII European Theater films from the 60's-70's. At least the film Patton had those German aircraft that they kept flying all throughout the film. LOL

Also Band of Brothers did a fantastic job of remodeling some of their film armor too.

.

in terms of the casting of Tom Selleck - he's in it so briefly, if you sneeze you'd probably miss his scene.

as for the archival footage, you all have swayed my opinion in it's placement in the movie, but in some scenes the mixture of the staged war sequences, the archival shots, the miniature shots and scenes that look like they were borrowed from other war movies - it comes across as a bit oddly edited.

[Duffy12]

Originally Posted by slick1ru2

If the Pershing made it into the war sooner and had its power plant issue fixed it probably would take that title. It was equal in firepower and armor.

Yep. I agree with this.

However you can directly blame Gen. George Patton for that issue. When they were planning for the invasion of Europe(D-Day), the American High Command wanted to replace the anemic Sherman tank with the more powerful Pershing. However Gen Patton voiced his opinion that they should not do that, and keep on using the Sherman because of it's fast speed for blitzkrieg type of penetrations. Since Gen Patton had so much clout at the time, they nixed that idea and a lot of tankers paid the price for that. When the US top brass much later realized of this serious mistake, they then rushed production of the Pershing into service. However they only made into the final stages of the war in small numbers.

But could you just imagine if they would have gone ahead with this plan instead, then we could also possibly have seen a fair amount of the Super Pershings introduced as well, which was modified to specially go head-to-head with the heavy German King Tigers. Only one Super-P made it into the war with two confirmed kills.

[slick1ru2]

Originally Posted by HD Goofnut

I agree, but it did not. The same can be said about the 190 versus the Mustang, but it simply came too late to make a difference.

Impressive as it was, there weren't enough Panthers to make a difference, so their superior build didn't make an impact. The tanks that make the biggest difference were the ones that could be made quickly, produced in mass numbers and were reliable, the Sherman and T-34.

[HD Goofnut]

Originally Posted by slick1ru2

Impressive as it was, there weren't enough Panthers to make a difference, so their superior build didn't make an impact. The tanks that make the biggest difference were the ones that could be made quickly, produced in mass numbers and were reliable, the Sherman and T-34.

Numbers outweighed quality for sure. For every T-34 the Germans destroyed there were 5-6 to take its place. For every Sherman the Germans destroyed there were 3-4 to take its place.

[cb1]

Originally Posted by HD Goofnut

Just to clarify, the primary German tanks involved in the Battle of the Bulge were the Panzer IV and the Panther G also known as the Panzer V. There were some Tigers (Panzer VI) involved in the overall assault, but it compromised mainly of the two other tanks. The Panther, particularly the G model, was easily the best tank of WWII.

to add, Kelly's Heroes was a T34 Russian converted to a Tiger, the same method was used for the Tiger in Saving Private Ryan.

M47 Patton was the Tiger in Battle of the Bulge and M48s were used in Patton, Israeli M51 Super Shermans were Tigers in The Big Red One.

German tanks are just a little hard to get.

[rickah88]

This would've made a superb digibook, with all the "behind the scenes" photos/references plus all the historical photos/references. Glad Universal did a good job on this release. Looking forward to seeing this BD. Sub $13 is just too good to pass up, even if it is Universal.

[Duffy12]

Originally Posted by slick1ru2

Impressive as it was, there weren't enough Panthers to make a difference, so their superior build didn't make an impact. The tanks that make the biggest difference were the ones that could be made quickly, produced in mass numbers and were reliable, the Sherman and T-34.

Originally Posted by HD Goofnut

Numbers outweighed quality for sure. For every T-34 the Germans destroyed there were 5-6 to take its place. For every Sherman the Germans destroyed there were 3-4 to take its place.

Also, the Allied Air Force had a huge hand in it too.

.

[Dubstar]

fascinating input/comments here!

[L'armée des ombres]

The worst offender in my book is this film
It's really bad how they try to sell american tanks as german

[JimSD]

The bigger problem with Battle of the Bulge is them going from snowy, forested conditions in the Ardennes Forest one day to dry, arid, plains conditions the next. That absolutely drives me crazy in that film.

[L'armée des ombres]

And of course all the historical fu.. up's they made

[HD Goofnut]

Originally Posted by Duffy12

Also, the Allied Air Force had a huge hand in it too.

.

Actually, the Germans lost more tanks to the American Priest with its 105mm Howitzer than to aircraft. This was was because the Panzer IV, Panther, and Tiger only had a 1/2" of armor on the top of the tank, which made them susceptible to shell projectiles in the form of air bursts as well as direct artillery fire. I've read many first hand accounts of German tank commanders/crews and they feared the American and British mobile artillery much more than their aircraft or tanks. This was why the armor on the top of the King Tiger was increased to 1 inch.

[DrrnHarr]

Originally Posted by JimSD

The bigger problem with Battle of the Bulge is them going from snowy, forested conditions in the Ardennes Forest one day to dry, arid, plains conditions the next. That absolutely drives me crazy in that film.

I love "The Battle of the Bulge" it has a high nostalgia value for me since I made a point of watching it every time it appeared on British TV . But, the Spanish locations are a poor substitute for Belgium.

[Duffy12]

Originally Posted by HD Goofnut

Actually, the Germans lost more tanks to the American Priest with its 105mm Howitzer than to aircraft. This was was because the Panzer IV, Panther, and Tiger only had a 1/2" of armor on the top of the tank, which made them susceptible to shell projectiles in the form of air bursts as well as direct artillery fire. I've read many first hand accounts of German tank commanders/crews and they feared the American and British mobile artillery much more than their aircraft or tanks. This was why the armor on the top of the King Tiger was increased to 1 inch.

Interesting.

So that must be why the online game 'World of Tanks' includes them also. The players there HATE them with a raging passion.

Originally Posted by JimSD

The bigger problem with Battle of the Bulge is them going from snowy, forested conditions in the Ardennes Forest one day to dry, arid, plains conditions the next. That absolutely drives me crazy in that film.

Originally Posted by DrrnHarr

I love "The Battle of the Bulge" it has a high nostalgia value for me since I made a point of watching it every time it appeared on British TV . But, the Spanish locations are a poor substitute for Belgium.

Same for me too DrrnHarr. I used to watch it all the time as a kid back in the 70's. So it also has nostalgia value for me too. But I also agree with JimSD's points.

.