Official Film Noir on Blu-ray Thread

[jello_02]

Originally Posted by noirjunkie

And Brick has a (superior) Region A release in Canada: link. (The region B release is 1080i and opened up to 1.78.1, whereas the Alliance release is 1080p, 1.85.1 OAR.)

is there any info on a united states release?

[The Great Owl]

Originally Posted by Cinemach

Yeah noir and neo-noir is such a peculiar prerogative. I will say that noir/neo-noir are expressly over-used terms though, and many of the films listed I wouldn't consider noir/neonoir myself (the Hitchcock's, White Heat, Suddenly, Badlands, Taxi Driver), but whatever man.

The term, "Film noir", is used as a marketing device more than anything these days. There are only a handful of titles that I would consider true film noirs in the classic sense. Double Indemnity, Detour, The Maltese Falcon, Out of the Past, The Big Sleep, The Killing, Scarlet Street, Sunset Boulevard, Private Hell 36, The Big Combo, Touch of Evil, and In a Lonely Place are the first titles that come to mind if I had to make a list of works that fall into any semblance of textbook parameters.

For the purposes of the thread, however, I like the idea of deferring to the film noir classifications on sites like AMC Filmsite and Internet Movie Database, along with the classifications in the official reviews here on this site. Suddenly, Crashout, Plunder Road, White Heat, and others may not fall 100% into the parameters, but viewers are still on the right track.

[MifuneFan]

How do you guys feel about Pursued? It's on the list, but it's more of a hybrid Western/Noir, and I wasn't sure if it should be on there or not. The setting isn't noir per se, but the tone and structure is. Quite a few of these western/noir hybrids were made, another on BD being Ramrod.

[noirjunkie]

Originally Posted by MifuneFan

How do you guys feel about Pursued? It's on the list, but it's more of a hybrid Western/Noir, and I wasn't sure if it should be on there or not. The setting isn't noir per se, but the tone and structure is. Quite a few of these western/noir hybrids were made, another on BD being Ramrod.

It's the rare breed of Western/noir hybrid. Not many exist, but it deserves a place on the list.

Originally Posted by jello_02

is there any info on a united states release?

No, but you can order the Canadian import on the US Amazon site for under $15: link.

Originally Posted by The Great Owl

For the purposes of the thread, however, I like the idea of deferring to the film noir classifications on sites like AMC Filmsite and Internet Movie Database, along with the classifications in the official reviews here on this site. Suddenly, Crashout, Plunder Road, White Heat, and others may not fall 100% into the parameters, but viewers are still on the right track.

A film like Plunder Road fits all of the requirements for a true noir--doomed criminals as central protagonists, dark visuals (especially in the first act), and a fatalistic ending.

I'm personally in favor of casting a wider net when categorizing what is and isn't noir. For instance, there are bona fide classics of the genre like The Narrow Margin that have what some would call a happy ending, but that certainly shouldn't disqualify them from being classified as noir. A lot of great noirs have some of the major elements of the genre, but not all of them. Some might seem noirish or noir lite, but it doesn't mean they should be thrown out of the genre completely.

Originally Posted by NoirFan

(Ha, I told myself I was going to avoid this thread entirely because I'd end up just getting into pointless debates about what is and isn't noir, so I'll bow out now.)

I'm worried about this, too. I'm going to have to be disciplined and keep myself from spending all my time getting into these kind of debates.

[EVERYONE LIES]

This is a great thread. I didn't even know The Lady From Shanghai was being released. It is awesome to see TCM get in the blu-ray game not just for Noir but classic movies in general.

[MifuneFan]

Debates are good, as long as they're healthy ones . It's clear that there will be disagreements about what should be on the list. I do feel like a film doesn't have to be a completely prototypical film noir for it to make the list. If you think about it from the perspective of a genre, that makes sense. There are, for instance, significantly different degrees of horror films. A Horror-lite title is still in the genre, so a noir-lite title should be too. After all the dust settles, I hope this can become a hub for noir fans, and noir newcomers alike to share their love for these films, and learn more about them along the way.

Now with regards to formating, I am a bit torn on whether to make a separate category for British noir, or just to keep them incorporated with the rest. Film noir is predominantly American, but that has to do more with styling than the actual country that produced it. So films like The Third Man, They Made me a Fugitive, Brighton Rock still fits the mold. Plus I'm not sure if there are even enough British noir titles to justify a separate category. The same thing with International titles like Rififi, Les Diaboliques, and High and Low. I'd say they're all noir, but they don't exactly have the typical structure, or tone that we associate with the category.

As always, I'm completely open to discussion about all of this. I'll be working on adding some of the titles suggested soon, so if you see any other missing title that haven't been mentioned in the thread, please do so. Thanks

[kaseaver]

A couple of questions regarding classification that I've had for a while:

1. Where do folks draw the line in terms of production year for classic film noir and neo noir? 2 examples come to mind. Anatomy of a Murder (1959) and Blast of Silence (1960). Both are very late in the classic film noir cycle, but seem to have the elements of classic film noir.

2. How would you classify films like Chinatown and L.A. Confidential, which were produced way after classic film noir but are set in the classic era?

[MifuneFan]

Originally Posted by kaseaver

A couple of questions regarding classification that I've had for a while:

1. Where do folks draw the line in terms of production year for classic film noir and neo noir? 2 examples come to mind. Anatomy of a Murder (1959) and Blast of Silence (1960). Both are very late in the classic film noir cycle, but seem to have the elements of classic film noir.

2. How would you classify films like Chinatown and L.A. Confidential, which were produced way after classic film noir but are set in the classic era?

It's a good question. Neo-noir has become a kind of catch-all for any modern-era produced film with noir styling/elements. The Great Owl mentioned "Against All Odds" (1984) earlier which is another example that's hard to classify. I wouldn't say it's not neo-noir, but not classic noir either. There are also films in the transition period between classic and neo that could go either way as noirjunkie mentioned earlier.

The last paragraph from the wiki article on neo-noir sums it up some of my thoughts on the subject:

Because these fundamental elements are as ambiguous in practice as their definitions, film theorists[who?] argue that the term "neo-noir" can be applied to other works of fiction that similarly incorporate such motifs. Robert Arnett states that "Neo-noir has become so amorphous as a genre/movement, any film featuring a detective or crime qualifies."[2] It is because of this genre's ambivalence that neo-noir is still shaped and interpreted so malleably today.

I was thinking that we could change the name from "Neo-noir" to something like Modern Noir, or something along those lines. That way throwbacks to classic noir that are made today would still fit under that umbrella

[GoldMotel]

I guess the problem with defining neo-noirs (especially for this page) is that it gave a rise to it's own subgenres.

Such as:

Tech-noir: [which includes films as Alien (1979), Blade Runner (1982), and The Terminator (1984)]

Psycho-Noir: [which includes films as Se7en (1995), Mulholland Drive (2001), Fight Club (1999), and Memento (2000)]

Science fiction noir: [which includes films as Alphaville (1965) and Soylent Green (1973)]

So I guess for the purposes of this page, how are we defining neo-noirs? Because if we try to include everything that someone/studio/critic calls "neo-noir"...we're going to have a long list.

Maybe because neo-noir is so subjective, we need to cite a real (perhaps academic?) source to why the film is a neo-noir (if it's not easily identifiable as one, such as Sin City or Brick). At least so there will be less debates over some "iffy" inclusions.

[The Great Owl]

Originally Posted by kaseaver

2. How would you classify films like Chinatown and L.A. Confidential, which were produced way after classic film noir but are set in the classic era?

Since Chinatown and L.A. Confidential lend contemporary filmmaking sensibilities (graphic violence, etc.) to plots influenced by classic noir, I would classify these as neo-noir movies, but that's just my opinion. Both of these movies are outstanding, and I would heartily recommend them to any noir fan.

MifuneFan's idea of filing such films under "Modern Noir" is a good idea.

[GoldMotel]

Originally Posted by The Great Owl

Since Chinatown and L.A. Confidential lend contemporary filmmaking sensibilities (graphic violence, etc.) to plots influenced by classic noir, I would classify these as neo-noir movies, but that's just my opinion. Both of these movies are outstanding, and I would heartily recommend them to any noir fan.

MifuneFan's idea of filing such films under "Modern Noir" is a good idea.

Perhaps we can have films from the 60-70s (and perhaps early 80s) be "neo-noirs" and films from the mid/late 80s-present be "modern noir"?

[JB3Royce]

Midnight Lace (1960) - Noir in color/Neo-noir? Unsure, but definitely feels like a film Hitchcock himself would've made.

British/French noirs:

Gaslight (1940)
It Always Rains on Sunday (1947)
Le Trou (1960) - Similar to "Brute Force"?

Neo-noirs:

The Man Who Wasn't There (2001)
Side Effects (2013) - Soderbergh's retiring?
Trance (2013)

[MifuneFan]

Okay, I've come up with a compromise that I hope most parties will be satisfied with. Rather than make separate categories for the few British and other International Film noirs, I will designate these with a flag of their respective country next to the title. So all British Film noirs will get the Unionjack , French titles like Rififi and Les Diaboliques will get France's flag , High and Low will get Japan's flag: , and so forth...I made the heading "Classic Film Noir" specifically rather than "Classic American Film Noir" because there are strong examples from other countries too. I think this is a fair, and non-obtrusive way to distinguish between American film noirs, and those from other countries while still mainitaining the fact that they're all examples of Classic Film noir

Initially these flags were to designate what country you could get the BD release from, but instead I will put that in parentheses after the title name. I like that way better too as it might seem confusing to see a title like Gilda with an Italian flag next to it. Let me know what you guys think

[Blu-Velvet]

Originally Posted by GoldMotel

Perhaps we can have films from the 60-70s (and perhaps early 80s) be "neo-noirs" and films from the mid/late 80s-present be "modern noir"?

That sounds like the right track, except that I'd consider the 60s as more of a transition decade, when classic noir was rapidly dying out but there were still occasional examples (especially the Japanese noir in the mold of classic American and French styles of filmmaking). The "Neo-noir" is something that seems consciously to be reviving the style that had already been largely out of fashion, beginning in the 70s and 80s with things like CHINATOWN and BODY HEAT, and by the 1990s and 2000s we have various styles of modern noir, some using mainly the visual style, some using mainly the fatalistic crime, corruption, and doomed anti-hero story elements, and some using both style and thematic elements.

Another film I don't think anyone has yet mentioned is Melville's TWO MEN IN MANHATTAN (1959), not exactly a textbook noir but certainly a loving homage to the style and some of the themes. It's almost a neo-noir before noir had quite died out yet.

[GoldMotel]

Originally Posted by MifuneFan

Okay, I've come up with a compromise that I hope most parties will be satisfied with. Rather than make separate categories for the few British and other International Film noirs, I will designate these with a flag of their respective country next to the title. So all British Film noirs will get the Unionjack , French titles like Rififi and Les Diaboliques will get France's flag , High and Low will get Japan's flag: , and so forth...I made the heading "Classic Film Noir" specifically rather than "Classic American Film Noir" because there are strong examples from other countries too. I think this is a fair, and non-obtrusive way to distinguish between American film noirs, and those from other countries while still mainitaining the fact that they're all examples of Classic Film noir

Initially these flags were to designate what country you could get the BD release from, but instead I will put that in parentheses after the title name. I like that way better too as it might seem confusing to see a title like Gilda with an Italian flag next to it. Let me know what you guys think

I like this idea.

[jetthead]

Originally Posted by MifuneFan

How do you guys feel about Pursued? It's on the list, but it's more of a hybrid Western/Noir, and I wasn't sure if it should be on there or not. The setting isn't noir per se, but the tone and structure is. Quite a few of these western/noir hybrids were made, another on BD being Ramrod.

Pursued and Anthony Mann's The Furies are 2 westerns that definitely have a noir vibe to them.

[jello_02]

Originally Posted by noirjunkie

No, but you can order the Canadian import on the US Amazon site for under $15: link.

thanks i did that. was there ever a slipcover for this one?

[Edward J Grug III]

Originally Posted by NoirFan

(Ha, I told myself I was going to avoid this thread entirely because I'd end up just getting into pointless debates about what is and isn't noir, so I'll bow out now.)

To be clear, I certainly wasn't trying to start a fight, I had just never heard that and had always considered Odd Man Out and Rififi noirs and just wanted to hear the reasoning.

[noirjunkie]

Originally Posted by kaseaver

A couple of questions regarding classification that I've had for a while:

1. Where do folks draw the line in terms of production year for classic film noir and neo noir? 2 examples come to mind. Anatomy of a Murder (1959) and Blast of Silence (1960). Both are very late in the classic film noir cycle, but seem to have the elements of classic film noir.

2. How would you classify films like Chinatown and L.A. Confidential, which were produced way after classic film noir but are set in the classic era?

1. There are actually more films than you might think that were made in 1959, 1960 and 1961 and can be classified as noir. While Anatomy of a Murder is a pretty straightforward courtroom drama, films like City of Fear (1959), The 3rd Voice (1960) and Man-Trap (1961) can easily be classified as noir. Even as late as 1965, black and white films like The Money Trap (featuring Glenn Ford and Rita Hayworth's final pairing), Brainstorm and Hysteria put noir conventions in play. The genre didn't come to a clear, definitive end; instead, it gradually sputtered out and fall apart, mutating into exploitation films and color neo-noirs like Point Blank (1967).

2. Chinatown and L.A. Confidential are both neo-noirs due to a combination of their later production dates and the fact that they were shot in color. To be safe, I'd say anything post 1965 should be considered neo-noir.

[moodyblus]

Suggestions: the third man, white heat, panic in the streets, night of the hunter, sweet smell of success, and kiss me deadly. Also, I've always considered movies like fargo or down by law as noir because of the dark (noir) subject matter.

PS From here to eternity, eyes without a face, in cold blood, sunset blvd., sin city, and breathless.