iTunes 8K speculation

[tjritter79]

Originally Posted by flyry

Digital is always more expensive with catalog titles btw

Depends on what you're looking for?
I get digital titles for $4.99 on a regular basis. Some Arrow titles on sale are as cheap as $3.99. Ever see discs that cheap?
https://www.blu-ray.com/deals/?sortb...atchedfilter=0

And what about bundles? Routinely we see distributors with massive sales like U-pick-ems 3 for $9.99 or 4 for $14.99 at places like Vudu. Discs are bundled together as well, but not as cheaply as digital is.
https://www.blu-ray.com/deals/?sortb...dles&covers=10

Even boutique titles from Criterion and Kino, their digital wares are a lot less then the disc versions...heck, they don't even include the digital versions with the discs like the common distributors do. Criterion catalog titles like NOTLD, Seven Samurai and the collection of Godzilla films are $14.99 (regular price) on iTunes and once a year when they have a closeout (late-December/early January) you can get these $5 cheaper. Kino now has Kino Now, their own streaming service to buy/rent digital ....most of their titles are $9.99. Also a LOT cheaper than the disc versions.

https://kinonow.com/list/all-films/5...bf420fc600d14f

[SpaceBlackKnight]

Originally Posted by flyry

Digital is always more expensive with catalog titles btw

It can very thou. A Digital version can appear more expensive compared to the same major catalog title on Blu, but the disc versions are very rarely ever at MSRP (which can be $29.97 or higher for CEs/multi disc sets/series) and tend to be cheaper overall due to major markdowns/sales and the distributors just accepting losses on them.

Another factor with digital is that the distributor/rights holder gets more profit with every sale. Depending on the title, some get more profits from simple $2.99 rentals then they do with encoding and pressing 1000s of discs, having a 19.99 MSRP, and still loosing profits due to factors such as drastic markdowns and unsold inventory.

[tjritter79]

Originally Posted by SpaceBlackKnight

It can very thou. A Digital version can appear more expensive compared to the same major catalog title on Blu, but the disc versions are very rarely ever at MSRP (which can be $29.97 or higher for CEs/multi disc sets/series) and tend to be cheaper overall due to major markdowns/sales and the distributors just accepting losses on them.

Another factor with digital is that the distributor/rights holder gets more profit with every sale. Depending on the title, some get more profits from simple $2.99 rentals then they do with encoding and pressing 1000s of discs, having a 19.99 MSRP, and still loosing profits due to factors such as drastic markdowns and unsold inventory.

Generally, disc titles are priced more expensively due to the overhead involved. And much like you pointed out, credit for "unsold" copies (which is no longer granted to the big box stores like Walmart and Best Buy, which is why they have reduced their inventory in-store. They've joined the practice of distribution via online/mail-orders).

[SpaceBlackKnight]

Originally Posted by tjritter79

Generally, disc titles are priced more expensively due to the overhead involved. And much like you pointed out, credit for "unsold" copies (which is no longer granted to the big box stores like Walmart and Best Buy, which is why they have reduced their inventory in-store. They've joined the practice of distribution via online/mail-orders).

Yes, most are priced a bit more than buying it digitally, though with big studio catalog titles they often include a digital redeem code (MA, single redeem, you name it). Factors such as overhead and production/manufacturing/delivery costs are indeed true, but much of the time they discount these so much away from MSRP that it would be ideal to get one with a digital combo pack if possible.

Speaking of retailers, most of the disc sales in general seem to come from the online/delivery places, which can be a good and bad thing. Unfortunately, several storefront places have drastically dwindled their disc selections due to declining buyer bases (way before COVID, a friend I knew worked as a layout person at BB, and one of the reasons the store he worked at reduced their disc selection was because the manager assumed people would torrent it all on Pirate Bay) or pushing other products to sell (at Best Buy it's 4k TVs, Apple products, Toys, and Phone carrier deals, Wal-Mart it's snacks and TP). You won't find many KL or Shout/Arrow titles in store unless it's something like Mad Max or King Kong.

[tjritter79]

Originally Posted by SpaceBlackKnight

Yes, most are priced a bit more than buying it digitally, though with big studio catalog titles they often include a digital redeem code (MA, single redeem, you name it). Factors such as overhead and production/manufacturing/delivery costs are indeed true, but much of the time they discount these so much away from MSRP that it would be ideal to get one with a digital combo pack if possible.

Speaking of retailers, most of the disc sales in general seem to come from the online/delivery places, which can be a good and bad thing. Unfortunately, several storefront places have drastically dwindled their disc selections due to declining buyer bases (way before COVID, a friend I knew worked as a layout person at BB, and one of the reasons the store he worked at reduced their disc selection was because the manager assumed people would torrent it all on Pirate Bay) or pushing other products to sell (at Best Buy it's 4k TVs, Apple products, Toys, and Phone carrier deals, Wal-Mart it's snacks and TP). You won't find many KL or Shout/Arrow titles in store unless it's something like Mad Max or King Kong.

Which is also why warehousing/on-line ordering is the defacto choice-of-distribution among not only boutique labels, but many of the major ones as well. Stock is centralized, as are prices...and many times regardless if you buy the title from Kino, Criterion or Amazon...the selection originates from the same place.

For ex: I don't do Amazon at all (the reason would be a long diatribe) but I do order items from New Egg, Tiger Direct, and some others. One of the "tricks" I do is ask for "free 3-day shipping". There is a warehouse that distributes for these companies and others in New Jersey...if I order items early enough in the day, they are picked that day and shipped out that night. I then get the items before the end of the next day (before 5PM) in essence, I get next-day shipping convenience with free 3-day service.
....part of that trick however to work, is KNOWING (or finding out) if the item is in stock at aforementioned warehouse.

[The Watcher 69]

Been reading lately that H.266 will be a big step toward 8K adoption. I guess if file sizes can be halved that would definitely help, but will 8K still be worth it? Or will it be another 3D?

I note also that Star Trek I-IV may be finally be getting the 4K treatment. I've seen Star Trek I and 2001 touted as "showcase" films to do in 8K. Maybe they could do a select few epics to gauge demand?

And as noted above, 8K TVs may become the default whether people "choose" them or not, as has happened with 4K.

[4K fanatic]

Originally Posted by The Watcher 69

Okay, I know we're realistically years away, and Apple tends to be last with these things, but do we expect them to support 8K and, if so, when?

If 5G coverage reaches critical mass and the H.266 standard is ratified, that will break down some of the barriers.

Or will 4K remain enough for almost everybody?

People have been arguing since HD that’s that’s been enough. I’d never bet on a technology getting better. I have 75’’ 2020 4K tv & would love a 75-80’’ 8K tv once there’s enough content and it’s hopefully 16 bit. I’ll become 8K fanatic! Who wouldn’t love a more realistic picture….nobody. Tech will push it so eventually you have no choice.

[cleeve]

Originally Posted by 4K fanatic

People have been arguing since HD that’s that’s been enough. I’d never bet on a technology getting better. I have 75’’ 2020 4K tv & would love a 75-80’’ 8K tv once there’s enough content and it’s hopefully 16 bit. I’ll become 8K fanatic! Who wouldn’t love a more realistic picture….nobody. Tech will push it so eventually you have no choice.

The law of diminishing returns is a real thing. We’ve already seen it happen to the music industry, and frankly, you can already see that there’s significantly less consumer interest in 4K compared to HD or even DVD.

And when a blind study with absolutely perfect conditions straight up confirms that most people can’t discern the difference between 4K and 8K, you know you’re looking at a format that is going to have a hard time taking off:

http://https://www.flatpanelshd.com/...&id=1583308568

[kannibaliztik]

Originally Posted by 4K fanatic

People have been arguing since HD that’s that’s been enough. I’d never bet on a technology getting better. I have 75’’ 2020 4K tv & would love a 75-80’’ 8K tv once there’s enough content and it’s hopefully 16 bit. I’ll become 8K fanatic! Who wouldn’t love a more realistic picture….nobody. Tech will push it so eventually you have no choice.

8K will never be a thing for discs or streaming when it comes to movies or tv shows. 4K is already a niche market, whether we like it or not.

If you're a gamer then 8K will be great for you in the coming years. Other than that or nature docs, demo reels, etc. I don't see any studio investing in doing 8K remasters on the very small selection of films it would benefit in hopes consumers would buy all new and high priced TV's and players to watch them. I'd love to be wrong though.

[EVERYONE LIES]

I have learned in my years to never say never. Will streaming surpass discs some day, absolutely. Will 8k become the norm, more than likely. Things change and the world evolves.

[tjritter79]

Originally Posted by The Watcher 69

Been reading lately that H.266 will be a big step toward 8K adoption. I guess if file sizes can be halved that would definitely help, but will 8K still be worth it? Or will it be another 3D?

I note also that Star Trek I-IV may be finally be getting the 4K treatment. I've seen Star Trek I and 2001 touted as "showcase" films to do in 8K. Maybe they could do a select few epics to gauge demand?

And as noted above, 8K TVs may become the default whether people "choose" them or not, as has happened with 4K.

I have more faith in the royalty-free AV1 codec or its possible successor in development AV2. IMO.

[cpr3584]

Originally Posted by EVERYONE LIES

I have learned in my years to never say never. Will streaming surpass discs some day, absolutely. Will 8k become the norm, more than likely. Things change and the world evolves.

Streaming has already surpassed disc. The best movie experience (4K DV) is streaming. There are several testers are youtube confirming DV streaming beats HDR disc. Right now you can't even buy a DV player for less than $1000. Not to mention studios are releasing fewer and fewer titles on 4k disc, including new releases. unless u are running a $5000 atmos system your best option is streaming

[tjritter79]

Originally Posted by kannibaliztik

8K will never be a thing for discs or streaming when it comes to movies or tv shows. 4K is already a niche market, whether we like it or not.

If you're a gamer then 8K will be great for you in the coming years. Other than that or nature docs, demo reels, etc. I don't see any studio investing in doing 8K remasters on the very small selection of films it would benefit in hopes consumers would buy all new and high priced TV's and players to watch them. I'd love to be wrong though.

Because....there is NO storage format currently for 8K...4K UHD discs already are (retail) $30 a pop, if you included 2 UHD discs for a 8K movie, you're already looking at double (or close) to that price.

Blame the makers of disc-players! THEY perpetuated the DVD format by including up-conversion of 480 SD content to HD and including HDMI ports on their devices. Why a lot of the public DIDN'T go BD or UHD, that's a big reason why. If you are economically-challenged and you have a $70 DVD player and $15 discs, and you don't "see" a quality difference to a $100 BD or $300 UHD player...plus paying TWICE as much for media, why would you switch?

And that's where 8K WILL have an advantage...because the "player" is no longer a separate expense. Smart Tv technology will permit streaming of 8K ...HOPEFULLY at the same bit rates as 4K currently...Nor does one have to buy the media unless you want to. Storefront or SVOD.

The SAME choices customers have NOW, will advance in 3-5 years. Just as "HD" except for smaller TV 's have withered because why pay MORE for an HD set (less are being made) when you can get 4K with the SAME or BETTER features...for less money.....economics again!

The industry is ALREADY gearing up for 8K production, twice as many made next year, three times that the following. In 5 years it's conceivable that 8K TV set with all the bells & whistles...may be less than the comparable 4K model with less features...economics!

NOW, if ONLY the development of the internet can ramp up. DOCSIS 4.0 & FTTP have to hit mainstream, or just like the advent of 4k where the "bulk" of 4K was simply upconverted HD to 4K....the bulk of 8K will be up-conned from 4K. I think THAT has to change if 8K is really going to take off.

[tjritter79]

Originally Posted by cpr3584

Streaming has already surpassed disc. The best movie experience (4K DV) is streaming. There are several testers are youtube confirming DV streaming beats HDR disc. Right now you can't even buy a DV player for less than $1000. Not to mention studios are releasing fewer and fewer titles on 4k disc, including new releases. unless u are running a $5000 atmos system your best option is streaming

No one is more of an advent of digital than I am, but while the video is marginally close, the sound quality is not. You can still get lossless on disc, you cannot as yet on streaming....as my previous post indicates, this can improve with better, faster internet. I have BRAVIA CORE with my new Sony, and the sound, while marginally better then the usual 4K digital file (Spiderman: Far From Home) is still measurably inferior to the UHD disc version, but pretty close to the BD version.

I'm hoping the AV1/AV2 codecs will be convincing enough for the industry to adopt. But the internet providers HAVE to step up their game too.

I'm pretty sure the "end game" (excuse the pun please Marvel fans) to all this is to provide the customer in the home the SAME high quality digital file supplied to theaters with little variance. We may be a decade or more away from that but I think that is the ultimate goal here.

[cpr3584]

Originally Posted by tjritter79

No one is more of an advent of digital than I am, but while the video is marginally close, the sound quality is not. You can still get lossless on disc, you cannot as yet on streaming....as my previous post indicates, this can improve with better, faster internet. I have BRAVIA CORE with my new Sony, and the sound, while marginally better then the usual 4K digital file (Spiderman: Far From Home) is still measurably inferior to the UHD disc version, but pretty close to the BD version.

I'm hoping the AV1/AV2 codecs will be convincing enough for the industry to adopt. But the internet providers HAVE to step up their game too.

I'm pretty sure the "end game" (excuse the pun please Marvel fans) to all this is to provide the customer in the home the SAME high quality digital file supplied to theaters with little variance. We may be a decade or more away from that but I think that is the ultimate goal here.

good points and thank you. even casual people like myself who care about HT are not plunking down thousands for atmos to be able to hear the difference with lossless. for most soundbars and even 5.1 setups, streaming audio sounds fine. Physical will increasingly become a less viable option

[tjritter79]

Originally Posted by cpr3584

good points and thank you. even casual people like myself who care about HT are not plunking down thousands for atmos to be able to hear the difference with lossless. for most soundbars and even 5.1 setups, streaming audio sounds fine. Physical will increasingly become a less viable option

As more of these media companies "merge" and consolidate assets, physical becomes an additional expense/overhead that is constantly and repeatedly declining in market share and profitability. So much so that the distributors no longer allow the "big box" stores like Walmart and Best Buy, store credit on unsold titles. This has forced them to reduce in-store inventory and distribute via "warehousing" options (as with other products). I recently ordered a set of replacement speakers for a 5.1 setup in the basement for the kiddies. I ordered this from Walmart...what I got came from ULTIMATE BOAT RENTAL (?) packed in AMAZON boxes and a "gift receipt" from Amazon?

IMO physical titles will be limited to commercially successful blockbuster titles and limited availability of titles from boutiques from Kino, Criterion and the like. They see the writing on the wall, both Criterion and Kino have their own streaming services (one a SVOD, the other a storefront sale/rental).

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by tjritter79

I have BRAVIA CORE with my new Sony, and the sound, while marginally better then the usual 4K digital file (Spiderman: Far From Home) is still measurably inferior to the UHD disc version, but pretty close to the BD version.

I'm curious: how did you measure this? And how can it be closer to the BD than the UHD, given that both BD and UHD have lossless tracks?

[cpr3584]

Agree and I think $30 per disc (without a digital copy included) from boutique labels will be enough to satisfy the "at least I really own it!" crowd and their $5000 systems. Another thing is, the media companies are holding onto the titles they own and keeping the highest quality 4k version on their service while only releasing a 1080 disc version. at more exclusive movies are released, the best versions will be on streaming

[tjritter79]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

I'm curious: how did you measure this? And how can it be closer to the BD than the UHD, given that both BD and UHD have lossless tracks?

I didn't measure these, I read this in an article that was dealing with BRAVIA CORE...I didn't link to that article because it requires a subscription. According to the article, the audio benchmarks they used were closer to BD quality audio then that of UHD. If I recall correctly the difference was the BD didn't contain TrueHD audio while the UHD did? It's my understanding that TrueHD is the lossless format on UHD, correct? ...and that's what we're referring to....As soon as I got my Sony, I used my Bravia Core credits to view this film. I read the article I'm referring to above a week later... I apologize if my statement implied I measured these? I do not have the equipment to measure these myself.
The movie on BRAVIA CORE contains only one audio track IMAX dts, again I don't know if that's better, equal or worse compared to TrueHD or Master 7.1 (which I think the BD contained)... which was why I was interested in the article and read it in the first place.

[tjritter79]

Originally Posted by cpr3584

Agree and I think $30 per disc (without a digital copy included) from boutique labels will be enough to satisfy the "at least I really own it!" crowd and their $5000 systems. Another thing is, the media companies are holding onto the titles they own and keeping the highest quality 4k version on their service while only releasing a 1080 disc version. at more exclusive movies are released, the best versions will be on streaming

Owning a title to me, is really overrated. If I'm in the mood for a movie, I'll always go for the digital complement because the convenience factor is more important to me at my stage of life as opposed to having to search for a title, then play on the disc player. Then I'm basically locked-down in that area until the movie completes.

Digital I can watch on my NEW TV, go downstairs and share it with the family if I choose to, watch on a phone while travelling (I can no longer drive) visit other family and share it there. A lot more flexibility.

I was a "collector" too, I had over 1700 discs at one point. They took up a LOT of space and additional weight. I've rid of them but 120 titles at this point, but I have digital copies of most of them. I couldn't even sell the discs, most I've given away. Just no market for physical media anymore.