120hz explained

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by stockstar1138

in america we don't have 100hz tvs. as everything is broadcast in 60hz over here, so a 100hz HDTV really wouldn't work.

i think the 120hz is made for americans more than anybody else.

That's correct, you'd need a TV with both 100Hz and 120Hz for multi-system.

[kalkin84]

Originally Posted by savage1984

When are we gonna get a 120hz plasma?!

When one of the marketting departments at (your favorite plasma brand here) realizes how well the 120hz gimic has caught on.

The following is comprised of opinion based on my experience in the industry (not big box you twats ), experience with various displays, and information from a few friends i have (one who is working in LCD manufacturing, but forbids me to say which, though it is huge)

Why you see "120hz" on LCD and no where else: They need it. LCDs are still the slowest display tech out there. CRT, Plasma and most micro-displays can refresh an image faster than a LCD could ever hope to, the limiting factor in their performance is the signal or processor. In a LCD the limiting is the actual liquid crystal. The fastest a liquid crystal cell can "twist" from open to closed is 16 ms... that is 60Hz. It was worse earlier on spawning the "motion blur" complaint on LCD that still exists today. To combat this engineers put in all sorts of advanced processing, the lastest of which can spot-darken the back light on some sets, or even kill it entirely between frames, to create the illusion of faster response. There is more of course, but i'm not trying to bore anyone to death. The marketting departments got a hold of this and called it "120hz" because ZOMG it looks twice as fast!! Better picture through marketting; dynamic contrast anyone?

Why plasmas won't have "120hz" unless the marketters get involved: they don't need it. The plasma's limitting factor in refresh is the processor. The plasma cells flash several hundred times per second, meaning that on some sets you could theoretically have a 700Hz refresh rate, but that is entirely useless all other complications aside. The processor in most plasmas is still sending out the refresh information 60 times per second which, without the LCD blur, is good enough for most of us.

The real limiting factor for either is, as most of you know, signal. The vast majority of HD availible is 1080i/30Hz. Any TV easily bumps that to 60Hz using basic frame doubling, but you aren't really gaining anything.the 24 to 60 conversion is a problem, and that would be the only reason i could see to bump a plasma's processor up to 120Hz (after all, the display can keep up, without gimics) but i haven't heard of any planning it, perhaps someone has info here?

[dobyblue]

The Pioneer plasmas refresh 24p content at 72Hz, which is more than fast enough for smooth flow on a plasma.

The Panasonic -800 and -850 lines do 24p content at 48Hz, which they describe as "filmic" as it's slow enough for the eye to see the refresh rate like you do in the cinema. Personally I wish they'd included both 48Hz and 72Hz options.

The Pioneer also recognizes 1080i60 and will properly use 3:2 pulldown and deinterlacing to get to 1080p24 and then use 3:3 to get to 72Hz. The only review I've seen so far on the Panasonic isn't detailed enough to tell what it does with 1080i60.

[WickyWoo]

Why you see "120hz" on LCD and no where else:

Samsung DLPs were the first HDTVs to 120hz

I wish they'd gotten rid of 25fps for HD, all it does is result in PAL speedup chipmunking and unnatural pacing for 24 and 30fps sources

[TimmothyMcPiddles]

Originally Posted by kalkin84

When one of the marketting departments at (your favorite plasma brand here) realizes how well the 120hz gimic has caught on.

The following is comprised of opinion based on my experience in the industry (not big box you twats ), experience with various displays, and information from a few friends i have (one who is working in LCD manufacturing, but forbids me to say which, though it is huge)

Why you see "120hz" on LCD and no where else: They need it. LCDs are still the slowest display tech out there. CRT, Plasma and most micro-displays can refresh an image faster than a LCD could ever hope to, the limiting factor in their performance is the signal or processor. In a LCD the limiting is the actual liquid crystal. The fastest a liquid crystal cell can "twist" from open to closed is 16 ms... that is 60Hz. It was worse earlier on spawning the "motion blur" complaint on LCD that still exists today. To combat this engineers put in all sorts of advanced processing, the lastest of which can spot-darken the back light on some sets, or even kill it entirely between frames, to create the illusion of faster response. There is more of course, but i'm not trying to bore anyone to death. The marketting departments got a hold of this and called it "120hz" because ZOMG it looks twice as fast!! Better picture through marketting; dynamic contrast anyone?

Why plasmas won't have "120hz" unless the marketters get involved: they don't need it. The plasma's limitting factor in refresh is the processor. The plasma cells flash several hundred times per second, meaning that on some sets you could theoretically have a 700Hz refresh rate, but that is entirely useless all other complications aside. The processor in most plasmas is still sending out the refresh information 60 times per second which, without the LCD blur, is good enough for most of us.

The real limiting factor for either is, as most of you know, signal. The vast majority of HD availible is 1080i/30Hz. Any TV easily bumps that to 60Hz using basic frame doubling, but you aren't really gaining anything.the 24 to 60 conversion is a problem, and that would be the only reason i could see to bump a plasma's processor up to 120Hz (after all, the display can keep up, without gimics) but i haven't heard of any planning it, perhaps someone has info here?

From what I have read and heard, LCD's have response times well under 16 ms, some reaching on the order of one millisecond. it seems that response time would be more helpful in eliminating motion blur as the pixels can simply respond more quickly. To reduce judder, the refresh rate would be more important. In all honesty, I think the biggest attraction of Plasmas would have to be the great contrast ratio and the lack of motion blurring (however I find the motion blurring of LCD's to be minimal and not a huge deal if you calibrate the tv correctly). I have a sony kdl-40v3000 and I have it calibrated and when playing blu rays there is barely any blurring whatsoever; you would be able to see it if one were really searching for it, but if you're doing that, you're not watching the movie.

[SellmeyourDVD]

I don't know if anyone here can help me, but i've been scratching my head about this for the past few days.

It seems like my 120hz isn't working to its fullest potential anymore. I have a samsung 650 and have it turned on "high". When i first watched my first two movies (night at the meuseum and spiderman 3) i was happy and the tv was everything i wanted it to be. But now i've watched a couple of different movies (51st dates and 30 days of night) both are good but not as eye popping as the first two.

Is there a chance that the 120hz isn't working properly? Should i take it back to CC and get a new one?

[stockstar1138]

Originally Posted by SellmeyourDVD

I don't know if anyone here can help me, but i've been scratching my head about this for the past few days.

It seems like my 120hz isn't working to its fullest potential anymore. I have a samsung 650 and have it turned on "high". When i first watched my first two movies (night at the meuseum and spiderman 3) i was happy and the tv was everything i wanted it to be. But now i've watched a couple of different movies (51st dates and 30 days of night) both are good but not as eye popping as the first two.

Is there a chance that the 120hz isn't working properly? Should i take it back to CC and get a new one?

some movies are going to display that "pop" more than others. put Spiderman 3 or NatM back in and rewatch them. If they don't look the same, then there might be something wrong.

[SellmeyourDVD]

Originally Posted by stockstar1138

some movies are going to display that "pop" more than others. put Spiderman 3 or NatM back in and rewatch them. If they don't look the same, then there might be something wrong.

yeah that's what i planned to do. Spiderman 3 was more eyepopping but apparently it was my friends. I guess i'll just go buy one and check it out. 30 days of night was pretty good but i like the feeling of watching the film as it's being made.

[Augustine864]

When I have my 120hz turned on, it looks like I get "ghosts" on either side of a moving image. What is that about? If someone walks through a room, it looks like there is a identical faded image of that same person on either side of the actual person. This may have been explain somewhere in this thread, (of which I read all of), but I probably didn't understand it.

[steve1971]

120hz? 60hz? My Sony 46inch is 60hz and my freinds Samsung is 120hz and we compared tv's and didnt see any difference. In fact his seemed to "ghost" on some moving images. So I dont care whether my 46inch is 120 or 60hz as long as it delievers fantastic HD quality pictures and it does that in spades.

[Deciazulado]

Originally Posted by Augustine864

When I have my 120hz turned on, it looks like I get "ghosts" on either side of a moving image. What is that about? If someone walks through a room, it looks like there is a identical faded image of that same person on either side of the actual person. This may have been explain somewhere in this thread, (of which I read all of), but I probably didn't understand it.

Unless it's the TV being defective (lag smear) or the 120Hz algorithm not being really advanced, I'd say it's you noticing the interpolated (fake) frames better than most people. To me most 120Hz implementations look blurry with fast movement, while great (true live look) with slow movements..

Checking previous posts, 25 fps should exist for material shot at 25 fps (The Beatles Magical Mystery Tour for example) although I guess transcoding it into the common BD 1080i60 format would be a small compromise.

100 Hz + 120Hz would be ideal but again an economic compromise is made to fit all into 120Hz, frame interpolation at such a high (120Hz) rate should be somewhat smooth, people watch 24fps/25fps/50Hz/30fps/60Hz DVDs on monitors with 60/72/75/85 refresh rates. The common rate for PAL/NTSC/sound film is 300Hz

[DOOK1E]

I don't even understand the original post. All it had to say it is: most TVs process @ 60fps, a tv with 120 Hz processes images @ 120fps meaning it adds an extra frame which causes the image being shown to look smoother or more fluid.

I've had a Samsung w/ 120Hz since January and absolutely love it. I still remember the first time I saw this set in action at Best Buy, I literally stood there watching the demo for atleast half an hour. Why some people don't like it, I couldn't tell you. The effect it has on blu-ray movies, DVDs and tv is just amazing and presents a new experience that to me, improves the look of whatever the source may be. It gives somewhat of a 3D effect and makes movies feel like you're on the set as they are being filmed.

Whoever it was that said their brother bought a tv w/ 120Hz, didn't like it and leaves the setting off, your brother is in idiot and I hope he just has the extra money to throw around. The whole reason you spend the extra money on one of these tvs is for that feature specifcally, otherwise, you should just use the difference to get a bigger tv w/o 120Hz.

[weiland555]

Originally Posted by DOOK1E

I don't even understand the original post. All it had to say it is: most TVs process @ 60fps, a tv with 120 Hz processes images @ 120fps meaning it adds an extra frame which causes the image being shown to look smoother or more fluid.

I've had a Samsung w/ 120Hz since January and absolutely love it. I still remember the first time I saw this set in action at Best Buy, I literally stood there watching the demo for atleast half an hour. Why some people don't like it, I couldn't tell you. The effect it has on blu-ray movies, DVDs and tv is just amazing and presents a new experience that to me, improves the look of whatever the source may be. It gives somewhat of a 3D effect and makes movies feel like you're on the set as they are being filmed.

Whoever it was that said their brother bought a tv w/ 120Hz, didn't like it and leaves the setting off, your brother is in idiot and I hope he just has the extra money to throw around. The whole reason you spend the extra money on one of these tvs is for that feature specifcally, otherwise, you should just use the difference to get a bigger tv w/o 120Hz.

What level of motion control is your TV set on? I just ordered a Sammy 650.

[aramis109]

Originally Posted by DOOK1E

I don't even understand the original post. All it had to say it is: most TVs process @ 60fps, a tv with 120 Hz processes images @ 120fps meaning it adds an extra frame which causes the image being shown to look smoother or more fluid.

I've had a Samsung w/ 120Hz since January and absolutely love it. I still remember the first time I saw this set in action at Best Buy, I literally stood there watching the demo for atleast half an hour. Why some people don't like it, I couldn't tell you. The effect it has on blu-ray movies, DVDs and tv is just amazing and presents a new experience that to me, improves the look of whatever the source may be. It gives somewhat of a 3D effect and makes movies feel like you're on the set as they are being filmed.

Whoever it was that said their brother bought a tv w/ 120Hz, didn't like it and leaves the setting off, your brother is in idiot and I hope he just has the extra money to throw around. The whole reason you spend the extra money on one of these tvs is for that feature specifcally, otherwise, you should just use the difference to get a bigger tv w/o 120Hz.

Actually, that's incorrect. You can get the 120hz TV to resolve 3:2 pulldown judder without having the motionplus feature turned on. Check out the ever-present Best Buy display of Pirates with it on and off.

[aramis109]

Originally Posted by trentv85050

Info: http://cnettv.cnet.com/9742-1_53-28625.html

This is actually a video about 3d technology, with a 10 second blurb on 120hz as it pertains to 3d, not to this discussion.

[Big Daddy]

This question and answer appeared in the September 2008 issue of Home Entertainment magazine. I believe it is important for people understand 120Hz TVs.

Q: I’ve been reading about these new 120Hz LCDs, but I haven’t heard about plasma or DLP doing it. I’ve even read that DLP can do 120Hz. If 120Hz is so great, why aren’t these other technologies doing it too? Are they not able?

A: This is a pretty common question, given how much hype each LCD company is giving to 120Hz. Despite years of LCD companies denying that there was a motion blur issue with LCDs, 120Hz was developed to address that exact issue. When the refresh rate on an LCD is doubled, your brain is less likely to see blur. DLP and plasma don’t have motion blur issues, so they don’t need 120Hz. In addition, the way DLP and plasma create an image mean that they are not really refreshing at 60Hz at all; it’s actually much faster. Both DLP and plasma create light with time, as in each pixel only has one level of brightness, and the overall light level is determined by how many times that pixel flashes. More flashes mean a brighter pixel, fewer flashes, a dimmer one. This is done much much faster than 60 times a second.

[fuzzielitlpanda]

question: i'm using my ps3 as a blu ray player and when the movie loads, the screen will go from 1080p @ 60hz to 1080p @24hz? is this what i want or should it be saying 1080p @ 120hz?

[FilmMaster]

Originally Posted by fuzzielitlpanda

question: i'm using my ps3 as a blu ray player and when the movie loads, the screen will go from 1080p @ 60hz to 1080p @24hz? is this what i want or should it be saying 1080p @ 120hz?

No, the source (blu-ray) is 24hz.

[Teabaggins]

does 120 hz effect gameplay at all?

[stockstar1138]

Originally Posted by Teabaggins

does 120 hz effect gameplay at all?

it will effect the way the game looks, not how it plays.

the higher the framerate though, the less the effect.

@60fps, 120hz is interpolating only half the frames versus @30fps it is interpolating 3/4 of the frames. interpolation is what gives it that weird soapy look.