Sony VPL-VW60 "Black Pearl"

[kccarl]

Hey There,

The rule of thumb is to have the diagonal size of your screen such that you sit 1.5 times that number. As an example, I have a 119 inch screen that I'll just call 120 inches. For optimum viewing using quality equipment and in a light controlled room, my sitting distance away from the screen is 180 inches. That is the distance my head is from the screen in a reclined movie watching position.

I forgot to check your sitting distance, so I will and post another update.

KCCARL

[kccarl]

With your seating at 16 to 17 feet, or 192 inches to 204 inches, that would mean your screen size should be 128 inches to 136 inches diagonally. There are many personal aspects to your choice. Remember that your screen is reflecting a lot of light and color and that wears your eyes out. Also, the closer you are to the screen, or the bigger your screen, the more grainy things can become. For your eye to properly resolve the colors and may be more importantly the blacks, the rule of thumb is 1.5.

As I use this distance rule perfectly and haven't regretted it for a minute.

Good luck,
KCCARL

[Brain Sturgeon]

Originally Posted by bigstick

I'm a new member who has made the leap to front projection w/ the purchase of the VPL-VW60. I am in a quandry as to the size screen to buy. My room is 19ft9in X 14ft6in. Based on Sony"s manual I can set up the projector so that the throw distance is within range for a 150" 16:9 screen (looking at the Elite CineTension2 motorized screen). My actual throw distance will be about 18ft. The room is 95-99% light controlled. Seating will be about 16-17 feet from the screen. I'd like to get the biggest screen the room accommodates (150"), but will I be disappointed in the quality of the picture? Are there other considerations to take into account? Would a smaller screen be best and, if so, how small? Any advise is appreciated.

Your main consideration for screen size should not be your seating distance, as you can always sit closer to the screen if needed. Your main consideration should be the brightness of the image that you will be projecting based upon the lumens of the VW60 and the size and gain of your screen.

The VW60 is rated at 900 lumens, but it actually is about 525 lumens in calibrated/best video performance mode. On dynamic mode, it puts out 790 lumens, although at a cost to contrast/color.

If you use a 150" diagonal 16:9 screen (~130" wide), assuming you use a "standard" screen gain of 1.3, then you'll end up with about 10.2 foot-Lamberts from the screen, which is a pretty dim picture. ISF recommends at least 12 fL, and most viewers nowadays appreciate a brighter picture from 14-17 fL, although some prefer up to 20. As a reference, most movie theaters are in the 10-12 range. Also, remember that the bulb will dim as it ages.

The low fL's can be remedied by using a higher gain screen such as a Da-Lite High Power (2.8 gain) or a Vutec Silverstar (6.0 gain) although there are some tradeoffs with higher gain screens (limited viewing cones, possibility of hotspotting although the HP seems to avoid this, specific PJ/screen placement limitations with the HP).

If you are going with the 130" wide screen, you should consider a higher gain screen unless you like a dim picture (some do). Otherwise, going with a slightly smaller screen might get you a picture more to your liking. For instance, just going to a 10' wide 16:9 screen, you would increase your luminance to 12fL. Most people who have a Black Pearl seem to have maximum screen sizes in the 110-120" wide range (16:9), unless they are using a high gain screen.

Also, your throw distance will affect the measurable lumens from the PJ. Shorter= higher lumens, lower contrast, worse black level. Longer= lower lumens, higher contrast, better black level. Your throw ratio, figuring a 130" wide screen, is ~1.4 which would put you at the shorter end of throw lengths.

Another piece of advice: there are more people out there with PJ's that wish they had gone with a bigger screen than there are that wish they had a smaller screen. You can always mask a bigger screen if you want to go smaller. You are SOL the other way around. Generally, go with the biggest screen that you think you'll be comfortable with.

HTH...

[bigstick]

Thanks, this helps with my decision. Your advice seems consistent with a rather thorough review found at projectorreviews.com. While I'd love a Da-Lite or Stewart screen, the price is, for me, prohibitive. I'm pretty much resigned to the lower priced Elite or some such screen. Elite does offer a 135 inch diagonal screen (117.7 inch view width) with a 1.8, 1.1 or 1.0 gain. Should I decide on the smaller screen, am I correct that you'd recommend the higher gain? I take it the 135 inch screen presents significantly less concerns than does the larger 150" screen. A 120" diagonal is also offered at 1.0 and 1.1 gain. Does it matter which is best for my application should I decide to go with a 120 inch?

[Anthony P]

- projected screens are never discussed in diagonal but more traditionaly in width and sometimes in height.

- 1.5 is a number often said but usually either related to width or height. But the truth is that there is no such "magic number.

- what you should use to determine screen size are 3 metrics (which some are easier said then done)
--- what is the min ftL you want this is a calculation based on the real average light output size and screen used (and the environment you want)
--- height of room (and sometimes width) you want to make sure if you have two rows that the second row can see the bottom easily over the heads of the first row.
--- quality of projector (not an issue with these projectors but in the older days on less pixels and more screen door you had a limit based on the tech)

the trick is to get the biggest pic that would pass the most demanding condition.

there can actually be one more (for some)
--- projector placement but I would personally make it a secondary condition unless there is a physical issue with the room (i.e. there is an air duct and so the ceiling is a bit lower and the projector needs to be in front of it.)

[syncguy]

Another point to consider is whether you may wish to upgrade to a scope screen at a later stage by adding an anamorphic lens to your projector. If this could be the case, it is better to have a 2.35:1 screen rather than a 16x9 screen.

[JamesN]

Originally Posted by syncguy

Another point to consider is whether you may wish to upgrade to a scope screen at a later stage by adding an anamorphic lens to your projector. If this could be the case, it is better to have a 2.35:1 screen rather than a 16x9 screen.

...and is another argument for going with the VW60 over the VW40. The 60 can do the necessary scaling internally.

[Brain Sturgeon]

Originally Posted by bigstick

Thanks, this helps with my decision. Your advice seems consistent with a rather thorough review found at projectorreviews.com. While I'd love a Da-Lite or Stewart screen, the price is, for me, prohibitive. I'm pretty much resigned to the lower priced Elite or some such screen. Elite does offer a 135 inch diagonal screen (117.7 inch view width) with a 1.8, 1.1 or 1.0 gain. Should I decide on the smaller screen, am I correct that you'd recommend the higher gain? I take it the 135 inch screen presents significantly less concerns than does the larger 150" screen. A 120" diagonal is also offered at 1.0 and 1.1 gain. Does it matter which is best for my application should I decide to go with a 120 inch?

Most of the popular PJ's out there seem to be at their best at a screen size of 10 feet or under (16:9), unless you are going with a high gain screen; so I think that screen should be about as big as you can go assuming reasonable light output (≥ 12fL). I would probably go with the higher gain screen. You can control light output by using the high/low lamp settings the PJ has or by using neutral density filters if needed.

One way to see what screen size/material you will want is to put up the PJ, zoom a picture to the size that you want (117" width) on the blank wall that you will be putting your screen on, and then put up samples of screen material on the wall (manufacturers will usually send small samples of the screen material for free). That way, you can see if the size of the screen works for you, and choose the screen material (gain) that you want.

Originally Posted by syncguy

Another point to consider is whether you may wish to upgrade to a scope screen at a later stage by adding an anamorphic lens to your projector. If this could be the case, it is better to have a 2.35:1 screen rather than a 16x9 screen.

Scope screens are awesome... I use a 10' 2.4:1 myself. Once you go CIH (constant image height), you will never go back. However, it can get pricey depending on how you do it. The cheapest way to do this is to get a scope screen and then zoom your PJ in/out to fit the various AR's to the screen. No more black bars! Of course, using an anamorphic lens on a motorized sled is still the best way to do it (also the most $$$).

[syncguy]

Scope screens are definitely awesome. Once you have it, will not turn back.

[kccarl]

You wrote:

If you are going with the 130" wide screen, you should consider a higher gain screen unless you like a dim picture (some do). Otherwise, going with a slightly smaller screen might get you a picture more to your liking. For instance, just going to a 10' wide 16:9 screen, you would increase your luminance to 12fL. Most people who have a Black Pearl seem to have maximum screen sizes in the 110-120" wide range (16:9), unless they are using a high gain screen.

I'm asking:

I read through your dissertation on what screen size he should get. It was interesting to put into the terms you did, even though I don't really know how to coordinate the lumins to a particular eye. At any rate, I do have a question, above you said that most people who own black pearls have a 110 to 120 screen. Who do you know this first of all, and second, why is that? I have the DLA-RS1 and a 120 inch diag, 1.3 gain screen and its plenty bright at 180 seating inches from the screen. You mention he might think about a high gain screen, but I'm not sure what you mean by that. In a light controlled room, he should not need a high gain screen. A 1.3 gain should be plenty unless there is something unique about the black pearl.

Why exactly do you think that having a screen size of 128 to 136 with say a firehawk G3 1080p grey screen, or even a white screen, would not work well with the black pearl?

KCCARL

[Brain Sturgeon]

Originally Posted by kccarl

I'm asking:

I read through your dissertation on what screen size he should get. It was interesting to put into the terms you did, even though I don't really know how to coordinate the lumins to a particular eye. At any rate, I do have a question, above you said that most people who own black pearls have a 110 to 120 screen. Who do you know this first of all, and second, why is that?

Just from what i've read on the various VW60 owners threads over at AVSforum. In general, most of the popular PJ's have calibrated lumens in the 300-600 range. For most of these PJ's, a 16:9 screen any bigger than 120" wide is going to give you low luminance. For instance, your RS1 with a 120", 1.3 gain screen figures about 16 foot-Lamberts at maximal light output (700 lumens) [ERROR- Whoops, you have a 120" diagonal which is a 104" width screen: putting your luminance at 21.3-- plenty bright!]. That is pretty acceptable to most viewers. Now the actual figure is probably less than that, and light output drops as the lamp ages (up to 50%), so a bigger screen than that is going to be problematic with light output unless you go with a higher gain screen, like a DaLite HP (which is very popular amongst those that want a screen bigger than 120" using an RS-1).

I have the DLA-RS1 and a 120 inch diag, 1.3 gain screen and its plenty bright at 180 seating inches from the screen. You mention he might think about a high gain screen, but I'm not sure what you mean by that. In a light controlled room, he should not need a high gain screen. A 1.3 gain should be plenty unless there is something unique about the black pearl.

Why exactly do you think that having a screen size of 128 to 136 with say a firehawk G3 1080p grey screen, or even a white screen, would not work well with the black pearl?
KCCARL

Everyone is different in the amount of light output that they like out of their systems, but most prefer light output in the 14-20 fL range. Your setup with a 10' screen (ERROR- 104" screen) is fine and is very popular, but try going to a 130" or 140" screen and see how quickly your light output will go down (13.8 and 11.9 fL respectively, with new lamp and maximal light output-- high setting, short throw). I think your setup just confirms that using a 10' wide, 1.3 gain screen ("industry standard") with the RS-1, RS-2, Black Pearl, Ruby, etc... is fine, but if you're thinking of going larger (particularly larger than 12') then considering a high gain screen is probably a good idea. You can easily decrease light output from a PJ. You cannot increase light output without replacing the PJ.

A 128" or 136" Firehawk G3(1.3 gain) could work with a Black Pearl, although you are getting to the point where some will not be happy with the light output. At 525 calibrated lumens (with a new lamp), the luminance would be 10.7 fL and 9.45 fL for those two screen sizes respectively, which is getting to be a pretty dim image, which will continue to dim with lamp age.

The RS1 is also a brighter calibrated PJ than the Black Pearl.

Again, everybody will have a different preference for light output, but I would guess that the average viewer will prefer higher light output (the "large plasma TV" look).

[JamesN]

Originally Posted by Brain Sturgeon

Scope screens are awesome...The cheapest way to do this is to get a scope screen and then zoom your PJ in/out to fit the various AR's to the screen...

Won't this alter the perceived light output of the pj every time you chnage the zoom to adapt to a different AR?

[Brain Sturgeon]

Originally Posted by JamesN

Won't this alter the perceived light output of the pj every time you chnage the zoom to adapt to a different AR?

Yes it would. That's one of the trade offs to doing CIH by zooming. But, lots of people do it this way and seem to be happy with it. You just have to give some thought to your 2.35:1 screen size.

The better way of doing CIH is to use an anamorphic lens so that you regain the 33% of the pixels that were normally seen as black bars. This buys you 20% more light output than zooming. Of course, this is at added $$$

[Deciazulado]

20%. less than a third of an f-stop or

[syncguy]

If you have a totally light controlled room with darker surroundings, you may go down to 10FL. I have a totally light controlled room and happy with about 10FL. No one else has complained yet about brightness. (I know as said previously amount of light is personal thing and more people may prefer more than 12 FL).

[syncguy]

Originally Posted by bigstick

I'm a new member who has made the leap to front projection w/ the purchase of the VPL-VW60. I am in a quandry as to the size screen to buy. My room is 19ft9in X 14ft6in. Based on Sony"s manual I can set up the projector so that the throw distance is within range for a 150" 16:9 screen (looking at the Elite CineTension2 motorized screen). My actual throw distance will be about 18ft. The room is 95-99% light controlled. Seating will be about 16-17 feet from the screen. I'd like to get the biggest screen the room accommodates (150"), but will I be disappointed in the quality of the picture? Are there other considerations to take into account? Would a smaller screen be best and, if so, how small? Any advise is appreciated.

Welcome aboard.

You have a good size room. vw60 will nicely fit in. 150" width seems to be little bit high for vw60 for your throw distance. If you do not have total light control and darker surroundings you may run in to brightness issues as well. It may be good to consider slightly smaller about 120" for a 16x9 screen. However, 150" width will be good for a scope screen (with an anamorphic lens). I am not sure about 95-99% light control that you say. Even little bit of sun light could ruin a projected image even in a commercial theater. Sun is extremely bright in comparison to a projected image.

The best is to find it yourself. Try to use a wall before you get a screen. Then you can get a feeling for yourself for the screen size, brightness and whether you would go for a scope screen at a later stage.

[bigstick]

Originally Posted by syncguy

Welcome aboard.

You have a good size room. vw60 will nicely fit in. 150" width seems to be little bit high for vw60 for your throw distance. If you do not have total light control and darker surroundings you may run in to brightness issues as well. It may be good to consider slightly smaller about 120" for a 16x9 screen. However, 150" width will be good for a scope screen (with an anamorphic lens). I am not sure about 95-99% light control that you say. Even little bit of sun light could ruin a projected image even in a commercial theater. Sun is extremely bright in comparison to a projected image.

The best is to find it yourself. Try to use a wall before you get a screen. Then you can get a feeling for yourself for the screen size, brightness and whether you would go for a scope screen at a later stage.

Thanks. The screen width is 130" (150" diagonal). Does that make a difference? I understand that when discussing screen size it is, in the parlance of the trade, to give width rather than the diagonal measurement so, does your advice pertain to 150" as width or diagonal measurement? Also I am able to shorten the throw distance, if that makes a difference.

[syncguy]

I gave the width in my above post. vw60 may just do 130" 16x9 screen for your room size. Check the projector central calculator to get an accurate answer.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/proj...calculator.cfm

Brightness could be an issue and it is hard to provide a firm recommendation as it is somewhat personal. vw60 on 130" 16x9 screen is sufficiently bright for myself (in a totally light controlled room) but others may disagree. It is best if you could test this yourself since you have the projector. You need to keep in mind that the brightness of the lamp will deteriorate with usage. If you are happy with the low lamp mode when it is new, at a later stage you may switch to high lamp when it is necessary. You may also consider improving brightness with a high-gain screen. (This will work especially if you have total light control.)

I am bit concerned since you have said that you don't have total light control. Even little bit of sunlight on a bright day could washout a projected image. I don't think you could reduce the throw distance since you prefer a larger screen. Since vw60 has anamorphic stretch, you could use a scope screen with an anamorphic lens if you wish to have even larger screen for your throw distance.

[JamesN]

Originally Posted by syncguy

...You need to keep in mind that the brightness of the lamp will deteriorate with usage. If you are happy with the low lamp mode when it is new, at a later stage you may switch to high lamp when it is necessary...

So what kind of lamp life are you guys with VW60s getting in real-world use?

[syncguy]

Originally Posted by JamesN

So what kind of lamp life are you guys with VW60s getting in real-world use?

According to reviews, as I could remember, it is 2000 hours on high mode and 3000 hours on low mode. However, lamp could fail prematurely as any other bulb, hence manufactures limits the warranty to 3 months. I haven't seen any stats on real-world use.