When enthusiast sites fail to show any enthusiasm...

[desmond]

Originally Posted by Grubert

Come to think of it, has anybody read anything by AV guru Joe Kane (you know, the one who said Blu-ray was all about 'greed'? Last year he was preaching that the HDM future would be dominated by combo player and TotalHD hybrid discs.

He might have published something on Widescreen Review, but I wouldn't know - I let my subscription lapse after their shameful September 07 interview with Paramount, where they harped on replication issues and PiP, while sweeping the capacity/bandwidth issues under the carpet. The Paramount CTO hints that future releases by the studio might lack lossless audio and you don't press the matter further? What kind of journalist does that?

this is self explanatory. kane has been a big, big disapointment - I am not going to purchase any more of his products.

[scott1256ca]

Got these from hollywoodinhidef. Good reads, and ties in to the HTF article Grubert started with.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/03/03...-the-next-dvd/

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/ind...2&newsid=12214

I do not know the motivation of the HTF people who wrote that article. Are they truly home theatre enthusiasts? Are they still bitter? Is MS involved? I don't know, but I'll bet some of those guys paid more money for their interconnects than you have to spend on a PS3.

Let's sau you (hypothetically) are an audio enthusiast, and are helping a friend who is spending a couple of grand on a new audio system. You spend money on the speakers, amps, pre-amps etc, something reasonable on the wiring. Do you then turn around and tell him to get some device that can only play 192kb/s mp3s because don't sound "too much different from the original" or that "most people can barely hear a difference"? I'll bet those guys who wrote the article for HTF have no problem suggesting a few hundred for a cd player.

How do you go and recommend that someone who spends several thousand on a display, amplification, speakers etc. for a home theatre (these ARE supposed to be enthusiast after all) shouldn't spend $500 on a BD player, but should instead spend $150 on a Toshiba upconverting player? After all, the BD player will upconvert (most of them at least close to Toshiba, which I'll admit has a good rep for upconvert quality), and can STILL play the BD's, which the upconvert simply CAN'T match! Even if BD dies, your machine will still play your dvds. It isn't as if you have to throw them out.

All of that puts the lie to the HTF "enthusiasts". A real enthusiast writes the article extolling the virtues of HD media, saying they hope it catches on, lists the advantages, and then lists the potential pitfalls and hurdles that may prevent widespread adoption.

You don't come up with lines like "small window before downloads take over" unless you are getting spoonfed by someone with a vested interest in seeing exactly that scenario. The article I reference above goes into most of it, but also consider the number of ISPs who are throttling, or bandwidth shaping, or doing whatever they can to limit peer to peer, because they don't have the infrastructure to handle their existing clientele all doing P2P. And the bandwith required for downloading 5 or 6 movies a month, even at dvd quality, comes to 40+ Gig. I can't see HD downloads overtaking BD anytime in the next 10 years. I will admit, depending on how you measure it, HD downloads may be higher than BD sales now, but not legal ones. And to the best of my knowledge the legal HD downloads are only rental, no purchase.

[Grubert]

Originally Posted by scott1256ca

Got these from hollywoodinhidef. Good reads, and ties in to the HTF article Grubert started with.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/03/03...-the-next-dvd/

Yep, and they restate that on the latest engadgethd podcast:

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/03/05...75-03-05-2008/

Skip to minute 24 for discussion of that topic (though the whole podcast is a good listen).

[Teazle]

The phenomenon Grubert describes is _very_ weird. Normally enthusiast publications are excessively enthused about the latest technology because they want to attract ad revenue from the companies making the products. They have an interest firmly vested in seeing the products succeed -- or at least in having consumers believe they will.

The editors of these sites are not only poor sports about the format war, they've forgotten the business they're in.

[MatrixS2000]

Originally Posted by scott1256ca

How do you go and recommend that someone who spends several thousand on a display, amplification, speakers etc. for a home theatre (these ARE supposed to be enthusiast after all) shouldn't spend $500 on a BD player, but should instead spend $150 on a Toshiba upconverting player? After all, the BD player will upconvert (most of them at least close to Toshiba, which I'll admit has a good rep for upconvert quality), and can STILL play the BD's, which the upconvert simply CAN'T match! Even if BD dies, your machine will still play your dvds. It isn't as if you have to throw them out.
.

I agree 100%! I have said this countless times....the BD player is probably the cheapest item in a home theater.

[AlaskaDon]

Originally Posted by MatrixS2000

I agree 100%! I have said this countless times....the BD player is probably the cheapest item in a home theater.

Huge amount of truth in that. My player cost me about 1/3 of what I paid for my AVR, and about 1/10 of what my projector cost me. Come to think of it, my rear surrounds cost me almost as much as my player did. After spending that kind of money for HT equipment I guess I'm supposed to just be happy with upconverted DVD. Yeahhh....right

[scragham]

Originally Posted by AlaskaDon

Huge amount of truth in that. My player cost me about 1/3 of what I paid for my AVR, and about 1/10 of what my projector cost me. Come to think of it, my rear surrounds cost me almost as much as my player did. After spending that kind of money for HT equipment I guess I'm supposed to just be happy with upconverted DVD. Yeahhh....right

what, what kind of HT enthusiast doesn't believe in the look and sound of good enough?

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by Rich Peterson

I am compelled to reply to this.

I am a very long-time poster at AVS and can't tell you how frustrated I was throughout 2007 over how the forum had been taken over by HD DVD "enthusiasts". I would call a significant percentage of them "nutjobs". They seemed to feed off each other, dominating the HDM forums. The HDM forums were unlike any other area of AVS. Many of these "enthusiasts" are the very folks Grubert is referring to.

I wish I could agree with you that the HD enthusiasts were rational and cool, but I violently disagree based on what I saw. Even now that the format war is over they continue...

Unfortunately I have to agree with this assessment, especially when it comes to AVS. Somehow the situation got so out of control that it was becoming difficult to have any sort of normal discussion in the general section. Calling those people enthusiasts is a stretch at best, for some reason they were hell-bent on seeing the destruction of Blu-ray at the hands of anything, whether it was HD DVD or now digital downloads, I don't even mind calling them out here right now, we all know them anyway. Unfortunately it would quite unprofessional of me to do so, damn this insider tag!

I think most real HD enthusiasts are cool and rational, the easiest way to find out is to ask them whether they would have bought into the 'opposing' format as soon as their chosen format had lost. If the answer is yes, then the person is clearly just interested in HT and they have chosen one over the other for various reasons. If no, then they are on some sort of religious crusade, especially if they own a propaganda website...

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by Sir Terrence

I think you are looking at this one deminsionally and from a one sided perspective. I was a insider on AVS, and I will tell you, they tried to bridle me everytime I went over there to snuff out some lie that Disney was going red. Everytime things didn't go quite right with HD DVD, Amir would say "keep your chin up, just did a presentation for Disney, and they were really impressed. We wowed them". This is a chum throwing tactic that is not only deceiving, it was damn right dishonest. There was never a presentation, and Disney was never considering going red or neutral at ANY time. When I tried to point this out, my threads were deleted, and his were allowed to remain. I finally boycotted AVS, had my insider status removed, and stop going there. I was not rude, nobody thought I was rude, nobody complained that I was rude, I just brought truth to counter a lie. The same thing happened at HDD. I was never rude, but I was continuously censored over and over until I got sick of it.

You have a right to your critisizm, and your opinion. I just think it is a little one sided, and not a three deminsional analysis of the current and past climate in this war. Alot of us have seen this war from a place that many have not.

It is very difficult to go on AVS as a Blu-ray insider and disagree with one of the Microsoft crew. I've had posts edited and deleted which turned me into the bad guy, it is part of why I don't bother with AVS anymore. I saw the same thing about to happen at HTF, so I nipped it in the bud rather than getting irritated for no reason.

[Grubert]

Originally Posted by Maxpower1987

Calling those people enthusiasts is a stretch at best, for some reason they were hell-bent on seeing the destruction of Blu-ray at the hands of anything, whether it was HD DVD or now digital downloads, I don't even mind calling them out here right now, we all know them anyway.

Downloads are so last week , the FUD du jour is now Super-Upconverting. There are now half a dozen threads pushing that on HDD alone.

[savage1984]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

I was hoping you'd write something like this Grubert - bloody great post!

+1 An excellent post. And unlike many posts where I get turned off by the fancy lingo, I was fully engaged the entire time. Thanks

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by Grubert

Downloads are so last week , the FUD du jour is now Super-Upconverting. There are now half a dozen threads pushing that on HDD alone.

What is Super Upcoverting?

I take it they are using the Cell to do it all, in which case the PS3 will be more than capable...

Let me get this straight though, these 'enthusiasts' think that super upconversion of 480i MPEG2, DD 448k to 1080p24, DD 448k is better than 1080p24 with lossless audio. That doesn't make any sense at all, at least the download rubbish had something to it with AppleTV 2.0 making waves in January and Xbox Live rentals. Super upconversion (upconversion is already as good as it gets IMO and no amount of spin from Microsoft or Toshiba is going to make it any better) is a complete misnomer.

[Grubert]

Originally Posted by Maxpower1987

What is Super Upcoverting?

I take it they are using the Cell to do it all, in which case the PS3 will be more than capable...

Correct - aka super-resolution or super-multi:

http://www.cdfreaks.com/cebit2008

Top row, right column.

[Maximus]

During our rounds at the CeBIT grounds we overheard a conversation of a Samsung employee telling someone else that his company pulled the plug on HD DVD and not Toshiba. Both companies are in a joint venture called TSST (Toshiba Samsung Storage Technologies). The joint venture is responsible for the production of optical drives for both Samsung and Toshiba and it seems that Samsung no longer wanted to invest in HD DVD production lines. Toshiba on the other hand didn’t want to drop the format and was ready to continue the high definition format war.

On a side note this is a pretty good description of what actually happened, so those of you ranting at Samsung need to get a few things in perspective...

[sphdle1]

I'm sure there are people out there still bitter and complaining about Betamax, so though the number of bitter hddvd supporter threads and posts will diminish over time, there will always be a few that will hold on to their bitterness and never fully get over it. Sad, very sad!

[scragham]

Originally Posted by Maxpower1987

On a side note this is a pretty good description of what actually happened, so those of you ranting at Samsung need to get a few things in perspective...

huh. vewwy interesting...

that certainly explains the persistent sour grapeitude from toshiba... they truly do SUC...

[Grubert]

Home Media Magazine has been kind enough to let blu-ray.com step on the soapbox in turn:

http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/ques...php?startid=10

Hope you find that refreshing.

Feel free to discuss it here: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=41266

[JAGUAR1977]

Criticism is fine. But What we seem to be reading in some places by certain individuals is the systematic undermining of a product. However, the good news is that these squeals of envy will have exactly the same impact on the wider market as they did when we actually had a format war - zero.

Much as we enjoy reading these internet blogs, forums etc. the wider public are oblivious.

They see on the nightly news, or in a local paper, Blu-ray won the format war, that's it.

They'll store that away until they are ready to jump into high def.

Let's face it, if the internet had any huge influence, HD-DVD's quite skillfull viral marketing would have won the day back in 2007, before Blu-ray had a chance to counter.

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by Maxpower1987

It is very difficult to go on AVS as a Blu-ray insider and disagree with one of the Microsoft crew. I've had posts edited and deleted which turned me into the bad guy, it is part of why I don't bother with AVS anymore. I saw the same thing about to happen at HTF, so I nipped it in the bud rather than getting irritated for no reason.

It's ashame to put it mildly.

I will say one thing: I'm glad that Home Theater Forum is getting exposed for what it is. They've hidden for too long under being "fair" and "objective."

[Neo65]

player price

During the format war, a price war erupted, and in that price war, some people who normally are not considered enthusiasts got involved and shelled out their hard earned money on a player.

The same could be argued about PS3 for the BD side ( though a PS3 is hardly cheap... ).

Still, the fallout of the HD DVD exit is that while the true enthusiasts have accepted and moved on, some still have difficulty accepting what happened.

I've always been wondering why people worry so much about player pricing and ignored the disk pricing. Any true movie enthusiast will quickly recognize from their experience with all formats they've bought into that the price of their disk collection is the one that can really hurt, not the player...

In this case, we had a player priced at about 4 movies at MSRP, or 5 disks on amazon. That was a blessing to those who bought the player near the end (well, unless they overpaid), but not for those who bought a large collection of a now obsolete format.

I suspect HTF is still feeling the rumblings of non-traditional-enthusiasts. It will pass.