Archived: Insiders Thread

[WriteSimply]

Helloha!
Welcome to the forum. Hopefully you won't get heckled by people wanting your autographs.

1) BD-Java features are trickling in with new releases. Is the trickling effect caused by BD-Java VM software is not inside current BD players (right now only Pioneer)?

2) How much more confident are you and your colleagues in handling titles meant to include BD-Java interactivity?

3) Apart from your department and Panasonic encoding labs, how many other companies doing BD authoring have grown more comfortable with BD-J?

4) This question I asked in AVSF. Can Sony, Disney, Fox, Lionsgate and the rest of the studios ensure that the screens preceeding the feature (FBI warnings and commentary disclaimers) are in 1080p instead of 1080i?

5) You said earlier that PiP will be tested later in the summer using a dual video streaming using a PC software player. Would that mean that current BD players cannot do this? Could the PS3 do this with a firmware upgrade?

Alrighty. That's all the questions I have for now. Thanks for reading!


fuad

[Garconis]

I read this somewhere:

"Currently the main issue is that practically no BD nor HD-DVD titles are encoded using H.264 but just MPEG-2 (which can deliver nice results in HDTV but even 50GB doesn't allow a very good bitrate at 1080p resolution) and VC-1 (aka WMV9 HD which is nothing great at all compared to MPEG-2).
H.264 (MPEG-4 Part 10) is the best codec which was selected to be used for the new discs to ensure proper quality at up to 1080p resolution on HDTV displays and at 1/3rd the bitrate that MPEG-2 would need to achieve the same results. However the Studios are not using H.264 encoding, yet..."

So I was wondering when, and if, Blu-ray will start using even better/different codecs?

[phranctoast]

I have two movies in vc1 and they dont look nearly as good as kingdom of heaven, crank, or black hawk down, which are mpeg2.

[paidgeek]

Originally Posted by GoldenRedux

paidgeek,

What are your thoughts on the idea that VC-1 transfers may be using some sort of pre-processing to remove or 'smoothen' film grain in an effort to either make a more 'pristine' looking image and/or keep bit-rates down to fit on HD DVD?

I have to be careful of my comments because we have a strict evaluation agreement with MS on the VC1 encoder. From looking at discs in the market, I think some grain reduction may be in use before encoding and the encoder will reduce the apparent grain further.

[paidgeek]

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

^^ Great question!

Paidgeek: Am I right that you mentioned "grain beats" on the revered King Kong release?

Gary

I did mention some 'I' frame pulsing on that title, but I want to clarify that I think the title looks good at normal viewing distances. My post on this subject was pointing out that in my estimation this title pushed the 30GB disc capacity to the limit and this is demonstrated by these compression artifacts.

[paidgeek]

Originally Posted by Casey

welcome paid:

Just wondering if you have any info on future PS3 system updates? Mainly are there any plans to fix the scalability problem (720p games only play at 480p on older hdtvs). Is this even possible to fix in a software push?

Also any plans for dvd upconversion? These are my only two complaints.

These have been rumored for the big software update in March to go along with the Euro launch...

I can't say too much about what the hardware companies are working on, but I can tell you that the Sony Computer engineers are very good and they are looking at this and other updates.

[paidgeek]

Originally Posted by Garconis

In the future, will all of the Blu-ray cases be the same design? Currently, it seems that each studio has a slightly different case design. Granted, they're the same overall dimensions, they aren't the same. I'm not sure if thats a cool thing, that each studio is different, or if its an annoying thing...

It also seems like they are more cheaply made than DVD cases. They have a much more difficult time closing securely and seem more flimsy and weak (probably due to the transparent type of plastic being used).

Lastly, I'm not sure if it has been announced yet or not, but is there a solid release date for Cars? I heard this June, but was just curious is there is a date floating around that I've missed.

Thanks, and welcome!

I have not sat in on any meetings on this recently. Personally, I think the cases are pretty good as they hold the discs more securely than the DVD Amaray cases.

I can't comment on the Cars release because it is not our title. Expect it to look fantastic though...

[coolmilo]

I read somewhere that Casino Royal will be encoded with MPEG4. Is this another way of saying H.264? My feeling is that companies are trying to get their titles out looking/sounding as best as possible. However, like DVD, these titles will be re-issued over and over again optimized with the best technology available - as technology improves. The HD format is still very new.

So in a couple years from now, I guess that all titles will be encoded with MPEG4 and include the TrueHD and DTS-HD at a minimum.

If Crank is any indication of how titles will look/sound from this point forward, Blu-ray's future is very bright. What we don't need is another Samsung player (version 1) and titles with flaws (Fifth Element) to fuel HD-DVD's camp.

[paidgeek]

Originally Posted by WriteSimply

Helloha!
Welcome to the forum. Hopefully you won't get heckled by people wanting your autographs.

1) BD-Java features are trickling in with new releases. Is the trickling effect caused by BD-Java VM software is not inside current BD players (right now only Pioneer)?

2) How much more confident are you and your colleagues in handling titles meant to include BD-Java interactivity?

3) Apart from your department and Panasonic encoding labs, how many other companies doing BD authoring have grown more comfortable with BD-J?

4) This question I asked in AVSF. Can Sony, Disney, Fox, Lionsgate and the rest of the studios ensure that the screens preceeding the feature (FBI warnings and commentary disclaimers) are in 1080p instead of 1080i?

5) You said earlier that PiP will be tested later in the summer using a dual video streaming using a PC software player. Would that mean that current BD players cannot do this? Could the PS3 do this with a firmware upgrade?

Alrighty. That's all the questions I have for now. Thanks for reading!


fuad

1) BD-Java features are trickling in with new releases. Is the trickling effect caused by BD-Java VM software is not inside current BD players (right now only Pioneer)?
It is true that we are not using these features aggressively until we get a better handle on what the players can do.

2) How much more confident are you and your colleagues in handling titles meant to include BD-Java interactivity?
We are constantly working on developing our BDJ skills. You can expect to see it used more and more over time with more sophisticated uses.

3) Apart from your department and Panasonic encoding labs, how many other companies doing BD authoring have grown more comfortable with BD-J?
I think it is fair to say that no one is really "comfortable" authoring in BDJ, it is just too early. For that matter, I don't think they are that comfortable authoring in HDi either.


4) This question I asked in AVSF. Can Sony, Disney, Fox, Lionsgate and the rest of the studios ensure that the screens preceeding the feature (FBI warnings and commentary disclaimers) are in 1080p instead of 1080i?
I can't speak for the other studios, but we have been using a high quality warning card. Since they are usually static images, there should be no visible difference between 1080i and 1080p, can you tell me the disc you are seeing problems on?


5) You said earlier that PiP will be tested later in the summer using a dual video streaming using a PC software player. Would that mean that current BD players cannot do this? Could the PS3 do this with a firmware upgrade?
The PS3 can probably be updated, but as mentioned above, I am saying this without having concrete details. The current set top players will not do it, but they will still play the discs, just without the PiP feature.

[GaS]

Originally Posted by paidgeek

[I]1)

4) This question I asked in AVSF. Can Sony, Disney, Fox, Lionsgate and the rest of the studios ensure that the screens preceeding the feature (FBI warnings and commentary disclaimers) are in 1080p instead of 1080i?
I can't speak for the other studios, but we have been using a high quality warning card. Since they are usually static images, there should be no visible difference between 1080i and 1080p, can you tell me the disc you are seeing problems on?

I don't see any real problems, just annoyances. I have a 1080p display and the ps3, and during the start of many discs, they seem to be changing res. constantly, which causes my TV to have to go through the whole sync process multiple times. On some discs my tv will resync 3-4 times before the feature starts due to this.

[paidgeek]

Originally Posted by Garconis

I read this somewhere:

"Currently the main issue is that practically no BD nor HD-DVD titles are encoded using H.264 but just MPEG-2 (which can deliver nice results in HDTV but even 50GB doesn't allow a very good bitrate at 1080p resolution) and VC-1 (aka WMV9 HD which is nothing great at all compared to MPEG-2).
H.264 (MPEG-4 Part 10) is the best codec which was selected to be used for the new discs to ensure proper quality at up to 1080p resolution on HDTV displays and at 1/3rd the bitrate that MPEG-2 would need to achieve the same results. However the Studios are not using H.264 encoding, yet..."

So I was wondering when, and if, Blu-ray will start using even better/different codecs?

We have announced that "Open Season" is encoded with our new Sony AVC encoder as well as "Casino Royale". We will use this encoder on a title by title basis, but I have to say that both codecs have their strengths and both benefit from using the highest possible bit rates.

[paidgeek]

Originally Posted by coolmilo

I read somewhere that Casino Royal will be encoded with MPEG4. Is this another way of saying H.264? My feeling is that companies are trying to get their titles out looking/sounding as best as possible. However, like DVD, these titles will be re-issued over and over again optimized with the best technology available - as technology improves. The HD format is still very new.

So in a couple years from now, I guess that all titles will be encoded with MPEG4 and include the TrueHD and DTS-HD at a minimum.

If Crank is any indication of how titles will look/sound from this point forward, Blu-ray's future is very bright. What we don't need is another Samsung player (version 1) and titles with flaws (Fifth Element) to fuel HD-DVD's camp.

With respect to Blu-ray, AVC, H.264 and MPEG4 all refer to the same codec. Encoder performance improvements tend to come in small increments, so I would not expect to see major bit rate reductions in the near future.

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by paidgeek

I did mention some 'I' frame pulsing on that title, but I want to clarify that I think the title looks good at normal viewing distances. My post on this subject was pointing out that in my estimation this title pushed the 30GB disc capacity to the limit and this is demonstrated by these compression artifacts.

What is I-frame pulsing?

I find it truelly distressing that anyone can be anamoured with a format that is butting heads with its limits so early in its life, despite massive investments from Microsoft, Dolby and DTS to provide the most effecient codecs.

BD hasn't even begun to tax its limits, even with MPEG-2 and LPCM (except perhaps on BD25, but that is a transition situation). And then it has the same codecs as HD DVD, allowing who knows how much improvement.

Gary

[dialog_gvf]

Perhaps the BDA should consider introducing a logo that can be put on the packaging of BD releases that indicates the transfer has been approved by a director/producer/DP.

Would this be a something that could occur?

Gary

[paidgeek]

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

What is I-frame pulsing?

I find it truelly distressing that anyone can be anamoured with a format that is butting heads with its limits so early in its life, despite massive investments from Microsoft, Dolby and DTS to provide the most effecient codecs.

BD hasn't even begun to tax its limits, even with MPEG-2 and LPCM (except perhaps on BD25, but that is a transition situation). And then it has the same codecs as HD DVD, allowing who knows how much improvement.

Gary

'I' frames are compressed without referencing any other frames and are then used as the reference for adjacent 'B' and 'P' frames. If you don't provide enough bits to code the differences between the 'B' and 'P' frames, you will see a cyclic change in film grain, usually about twice per second.

[paidgeek]

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

Perhaps the BDA should consider introducing a logo that can be put on the packaging of BD releases that indicates the transfer has been approved by a director/producer/DP.

Would this be a something that could occur?

Gary

Maybe on a case by case basis. The film makers are not always available to us to supervise the BD production.

[WriteSimply]

Originally Posted by GaS

I don't see any real problems, just annoyances. I have a 1080p display and the ps3, and during the start of many discs, they seem to be changing res. constantly, which causes my TV to have to go through the whole sync process multiple times. On some discs my tv will resync 3-4 times before the feature starts due to this.

Okay, since I don't currently own a PS3 or a BD player , the rest of you lot will HAVE TO provide paidgeek with a detailed breakdown: title by title. Of course the only people that can do this are those with 1080p display/projector owners. If the prevalence is there, then the BD studios must standardize the use of these screens/cards to 1080p.


fuad

[phloyd]

Originally Posted by paidgeek

'I' frames are compressed without referencing any other frames and are then used as the reference for adjacent 'B' and 'P' frames. If you don't provide enough bits to code the differences between the 'B' and 'P' frames, you will see a cyclic change in film grain, usually about twice per second.

Very interesting. This is not something I had thought about but clearly this kind of thing can happen given the nature of video codecs.

Thanks for pointing out yet another artifact that I will now see for the rest of my life

[Rio]

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

What is I-frame pulsing?

I'm not paidgeek, but for your information, here is some explanation I posted on AVS before.

"Pulsing" is well know compression artifacts which is originated from inter-frame compression method. It's very popular since DVD had released. I've been seeing that on many titles, on DVDs, on HD DVDs and on BDs, whatever the codec is, especially the film contains much grains.

One of the reason why the picture is "pulsing" is due to the improper bit assignment between key frame (I-picture) and others (P or B-pictures). Usually I picture has much more bits for it being the "key frame" for following pictures in a same GOP, it preserves much more details and grains, while P or B picture does not have enough bits to preserve every fine details/grains, there will be difference of the reproducibility of the details/grains between I picture and P/B picture.

Key frame is usually inserted periodically unless there is scene change happening, say, every 0.5 second or 1 second. You'll see every 0.5 or 1 second, the detail reproduction is suddenly "changed" instantaneously at key frame point. It's relatively easy to check when you use frame advance function on the player (HD-A1/XA1 does not show frame picture in pause or frame advance mode, so it makes difficult to check the picture in detail, though).

If you want to see what pulsing is, pick up some grainy films, and look at the static scene and check the area of flat pattern like walls in the scene.

[dialog_gvf]

As I understand it, P-frames forward correct the last I frame, while B-frames backward correct the next I-frame.

Since the grain is part of the I-frames, is the lack of grain management in the P/B-frames due to a lack of bits assigned, or an actual hard limit on the allowed size of one of these frames?

That is, for a given P/B is the problem that they need to contain more bits than VC-1 is using (perhaps because of overall bandwidth issues), or are they hitting hard limits defined in the spec?

I know the GOP length is in favour of BD. So, are there differences in P/B-frame sizes for each format?

Am I also right that the nature of B-frames requires all the B-frames and the next I-frame to be read ahead to processed back (sort of like requiring the decoder to go backwards in time from the bext I-frame)? That clearly has bandwidth ramifications.

Gary