Turntables worth it?

[Beta Man]

I'm not trying to contribute to a "fight" here...... I still believe Vinyl is the preferred choice amongst audiophiles, and I personally find their sound to be superior to that of CD/SACD, etc.

[RUR]

Originally Posted by crackinhedz

you can catch Nika and others blowing the minds of many with their vast audio intellect, here.

Including me. I read seven pages and had to take two aspirin and lay down. Still trying to determine under exactly what (hardware implementation?) circumstances higher frequency harmonics (>20kHz) obtrude into the 20-20kHz domain, thus affecting what we hear. Does Nika's book make this clear?

[FreddieFerric]

Originally Posted by Beta Man

Vinyl is still the prefered media by the vast majority of audiophiles for a reason.....

In the next life, I'll invest in this sweet mama:
http://www.needledoctor.com/Clearaud...2&category=347

[btf1980]

Originally Posted by BluRayFred

In the next life, I'll invest in this sweet mama:
http://www.needledoctor.com/Clearaud...2&category=347

I heard this turntable at a press event, and let me just say that this is an example of the law of diminishing returns ten fold. It did not sound better than any of the other reference TT's that are a fraction of the cost. In fact, the big hoopla over it was the build quality and the exoticness of the way it looked, not how it sounded. The thing weighs almost 800lbs as well. The irony of the entire thing? I thought the VPI Aries was just as good, without all the preposterous "overbuilt" gimmicks that does nothing but deceive those naive enough to believe that it will do anything. I mean, an 800lb turntable.

There are audiophiles, and then there are people who buy these things. The kind of person who would buy the Statement TT, is also the kind of person who buys cable elevators.

[Teazle]

Mods please move this interesting thread to Audio section. (Easier to keep track.)Thx

[FreddieFerric]

Originally Posted by btf1980

I heard this turntable at a press event, and let me just say that this is an example of the law of diminishing returns ten fold. It did not sound better than any of the other reference TT's that are a fraction of the cost. In fact, the big hoopla over it was the build quality and the exoticness of the way it looked, not how it sounded. The thing weighs almost 800lbs as well. The irony of the entire thing? I thought the VPI Aries was just as good, without all the preposterous "overbuilt" gimmicks that does nothing but deceive those naive enough to believe that it will do anything. I mean, an 800lb turntable.

There are audiophiles, and then there are people who buy these things. The kind of person who would buy the Statement TT, is also the kind of person who buys cable elevators.

My comment was more along the line of a joke. I think its pretty cool though that you actually saw that turntable in action. For my money the Marantz TT-15S is more the ticket. I've been looking into this turntable but still haven't found the will to spend the money. I have a moderate vinyl collection of around 300 and would really like to revist a bunch of them.

Fairly decent review: http://us.marantz.com/AbsoluteSound-January2007.pdf

[btf1980]

Originally Posted by BluRayFred

My comment was more along the line of a joke. I think its pretty cool though that you actually saw that turntable in action. For my money the Marantz TT-15S is more the ticket. I've been looking into this turntable but still haven't found the will to spend the money. I have a moderate vinyl collection of around 300 and would really like to revist a bunch of them.

Fairly decent review: http://us.marantz.com/AbsoluteSound-January2007.pdf

The Marantz is a pretty good tt. It's pretty much a clearaudio emotion table, but it's a damn fine tt for the money.

If you were going to get it, I think getting this bundle from MusicDirect would be a very smart idea. The Simaudio LP3 phonostage is $500 alone. So you'll save a few hundred bucks in the process with this bundle.

http://www.musicdirect.com/product/80057

[Gremal]

Just as an aside, I think it's great that blu-ray is attracting so many audio/music enthusiasts as well as HDTV fans. You probably wouldn't find a TT thread like this in a DVD forum, but here we have a lot of interest in vinyl.

[DJeffries]

Originally Posted by RUR

Including me. I read seven pages and had to take two aspirin and lay down. Still trying to determine under exactly what (hardware implementation?) circumstances higher frequency harmonics (>20kHz) obtrude into the 20-20kHz domain, thus affecting what we hear. Does Nika's book make this clear?

Bottom line: You should never hear the effects of harmonics above 20kHz.

Frequencies above 20kHz are always filtered out somewhere between the musical instrument (or any source of sound) and the human brain (with the exception of directly applying the signal to a fluid the individual is submerged in or to a metal rod attached to the skull). Once filtered out, all harmonics generated by a particular frequency is removed from the signal. For analog the last catchall for this filtering if not done in hardware somewhere is the Basilar Membrane in the human ear. This piece of anatomy is basically a 20Hz to 20kHz bandpass filter.

In the digital world anti-aliasing filters are use to remove any content at or above the Nyquist frequency (22.05kHz for audio CD) before sampling. Data is then sampled for analog to digital conversion at a rate twice the Nyquist frequency. Contrary to popular belief increasing the sample rate has no benefit as the sampled analog signal can be accurately recreated when sample at just twice the Nyquist frequency. Higher sample rates makes for good marketing though.

There is one situation in the digital world where content above 20kHz can effect lower frequencies in the final recreated signal. Reconstruction filters assume that anti-alias filters have been properly utilized. If anti-aliasing is not properly performed then any frequency content between the Nyquist Frequency and the sample rate will be mirrored into the final signal causing distortion.

Nika’s book does assume some technical savvy but not to the level of needing an EE degree. What is doesn’t do is use a lot of audio professional jargon.

[DJeffries]

Originally Posted by Beta Man

Vinyl is still the prefered media by the vast majority of audiophiles for a reason.....

Vinyl/Turntables add a bit of even order harmonic distortion. It just so happens that even order harmonics happen at musical octives. As an example the A just below middle C is 220Hz with typical tuning. The 2nd harmonic of this note is 440Hz which just happens to also be the frequency of A just above middle C. Basically harmonies are being enhanced beyond what they would normally be. People tend to refer to this as "Musical".

It is a very pleasing effect and I tend to prefer it myself. I just don't consider it to be as accurate as a digital source unless excessive processing was done to the digital source.

As an aside tubes usually exhibit the same type of even harmonic distortion when soft clipping.

[Beta Man]

Originally Posted by DJeffries

Vinyl/Turntables add a bit of even order harmonic distortion. It just so happens that even order harmonics happen at musical octives. As an example the A just below middle C is 220Hz with typical tuning. The 2nd harmonic of this note is 440Hz which just happens to also be the frequency of A just above middle C. Basically harmonies are being enhanced beyond what they would normally be. People tend to refer to this as "Musical".

802d's, an understanding of Turn-Tables, and a picture of a Blue-Meanie........ you're my new favorite member

[Johnny Vinyl]

Originally Posted by Gremal

Just as an aside, I think it's great that blu-ray is attracting so many audio/music enthusiasts as well as HDTV fans. You probably wouldn't find a TT thread like this in a DVD forum, but here we have a lot of interest in vinyl.

I agree and I hope the trend continues. I am first and foremost an audio enthusiast, with a primary interest in vinyl. And now, thanks to the development of BD, I find my self purchasing a lot of Concert BD's and movies with great soundtracks.

[RUR]

Originally Posted by DJeffries

Bottom line: You should never hear the effects of harmonics above 20kHz. .....

Understood.

In the digital world anti-aliasing filters are use to remove any content at or above the Nyquist frequency (22.05kHz for audio CD) before sampling. Data is then sampled for analog to digital conversion at a rate twice the Nyquist frequency. Contrary to popular belief increasing the sample rate has no benefit as the sampled analog signal can be accurately recreated when sample at just twice the Nyquist frequency. Higher sample rates makes for good marketing though.

What I think I read in the Nika et al posts is that benefits cease at 96kHz. Did I read this correctly?

There is one situation in the digital world where content above 20kHz can effect lower frequencies in the final recreated signal. Reconstruction filters assume that anti-alias filters have been properly utilized. If anti-aliasing is not properly performed then any frequency content between the Nyquist Frequency and the sample rate will be mirrored into the final signal causing distortion.....

So I did correctly interpret that improper hardware implementation (anti-aliasing) can cause higher frequency data to have undesirable effects in the 20-20kHz domain. Do we know how often such implementation is improperly done or is this strictly a theoretical problem?

[xwingsct]

If you still have tons of vinyl hanging around then get it. You are not gonna get crystal clear sound like you would normally get from CD. Some poeple like that record scratch sound. In my opinion to compare Vinyl to CD is like comparing HDTV to the old Analog TV.

[Beta Man]

Originally Posted by xwingsct

If you still have tons of vinyl hanging around then get it. You are not gonna get crystal clear sound like you would normally get from CD. Some poeple like that record scratch sound. In my opinion to compare Vinyl to CD is like comparing HDTV to the old Analog TV.

I'm baffled..... I would say "yes" run out and get a turntable..... then run out and buy some vinyl.... listen to them side-by-side.... the sound from Vinyl running through good speakers revitalized my love for music in a time when it was wanning....

[richteer]

Originally Posted by xwingsct

If you still have tons of vinyl hanging around then get it. You are not gonna get crystal clear sound like you would normally get from CD. Some poeple like that record scratch sound. In my opinion to compare Vinyl to CD is like comparing HDTV to the old Analog TV.

Then you have only listened to poorly set up turntables. (Or well set up poor turntables.)

[DJeffries]

Originally Posted by RUR

What I think I read in the Nika et al posts is that benefits cease at 96kHz. Did I read this correctly?

I've haven't had a chance to read through that thread yet and I don't want to put words into anybody's mouth.

My take on this is that the higher sampling rates eases the design of filters that keep the effects of filtering out of the audio range. At 96kHz enough bandwidth exist to use simple first order filters with no audiable effects. The cost of doing this is more storage space and higher transmission rate requirements. Works for DVD and Blu-ray but not CD.

At 44.1k sampling, very steep high order filters are required with nasty side effects that can be audiable if they are not carefully designed.

One thing to keep in mind about the other discussion board is that it is focused on the recording side of the business. The discussion is pretty much theoretical as the CE manufacturers have audibly transparent designs already integrated into a DSP chip for digital filtering some sort of trivial RC or Op-amp design for the final analog filter.

Originally Posted by RUR

So I did correctly interpret that improper hardware implementation (anti-aliasing) can cause higher frequency data to have undesirable effects in the 20-20kHz domain. Do we know how often such implementation is improperly done or is this strictly a theoretical problem?

Yes, you have this right.

At this stage in the game I would not expect to see audible aliasing in the real world. Anti-aliasing is performed before the sampling so any aliasing would manifest itself in the recording.

In reality aliasing is always present due the fact that there is no such thing as a perfect filter. The trick is to keep it below the noise floor and thus inaudible.

[DJeffries]

Originally Posted by Beta Man

802d's, an understanding of Turn-Tables, and a picture of a Blue-Meanie........ you're my new favorite member

Ah, another Beatles fan. Since you like the avatar, you may find the blu-ray collection interesting.

[bluseminole]

Another use for higher sampling frequencies, as Nika pointed out, is to facilitate the application of non-linear filters/effects, so that any distortions introduced by these processes can be removed to the inaudible range (an oversimplification of Nika's more in depth post, but still the general point). In some cases, material is upsampled to ridiculous sample rates for editing, but then decimated back to a "consumer-appropriate" sample rate. This is also to remove any audible trace of distortion introduced by editing processes.

Also--and this is even more of an oversimplification, which Nika himself acknowledged--higher sampling rates can be beneficial when the frequency content of the source approaches the Nyquist frequency of 22.05 Hz. The theory behind this was a little too deep for me; I will revisit that thread later and try to get a better grasp on my second read-through.

Higher sampling rates are not all marketing hype--48kHz, and even 96kHz, have their places. For some source material, the benefits of these higher sampling rates may be obvious; for other sources, higher sampling rates achieve no sonic improvement. However, 192kHz has been scientifically proven to offer no improvement in accuracy (see Lavry's original post).

[Beta Man]

Originally Posted by DJeffries

Ah, another Beatles fan. Since you like the avatar, you may find the blu-ray collection interesting.

[IMG]removed[/IMG]

You're missing about 8 Bond movies at the bottom there


Very nice collection. I haven't found that many Blus I want to buy yet..... but in time, my collection will consume me...... I remember the days of of searching the internet for a couple hours to come up with obscure DVD titles to order