is it true a 720p projector can beat 1080p?

[My_Two_Cents]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

would rather be elitist that an ignorant fool

Well, congratulations as you've managed to accomplish both in this thread.

I'm still waiting for you to post something other than the "because I said so" argument to proove your opinion that a 1080p picture will always be better than a 720p picture (other than having roughly double the static resolution). Here's another article on resolution. Notice the last paragraph which states:

Also, the Imaging Science Foundation (ISF) states the the most important aspects of picture quality are (in order): 1) contrast ratio, 2) color saturation, 3) color accuracy, 4) resolution. Resolution is 4th on the list and plasma is generally superior to LCD in all of the other areas (but much more prone to reflections/glare.)

But, I suppose this guy (and the ISF) also have some type of agenda to uphold, just like the folks at HT, huh?

[Anthony P]

How can you go around defending yourself saying that you are not insulting people? Any of your posts using the word ignorant, stupid, and idiot are offensive words. You may not see it that way, but others do.

and if I point out that you should learn how to use quotes properly you will probably be insulted by that as well.

You are proving yourself wrong. I never saw a response from you about my Kuro Elite 720p TV vs the China brand 1080p TV.

I did not say anything like that, let's rewind,

Originally Posted by jibucha

Hello

This is so simple; 1080p is without exception better in every regard than 720p.

Of course, other factors can confuse things, but why confuse things?

Thank You

Originally Posted by Ricshoe

Another ridiculous post with absolutely NO explanation/facts behind it (but then you have a history of doing this, don't you?). As has been stated numerous times in this and many other threads, resolution is NOT the deciding factor in determining the "best" picture. 1080p can only be said to be a higher resolution than 720p. That's all. Native contrast ratio, color accuracy and motion resolution have FAR more impact on picture quality than native resolution. As an example (one of many) read this article on a 2008 HDTV shoot-out where the clear winner was a 768p Pioneer plasma over numerous other 1080p sets.

http://hometheatermag.com/lcds/208hdface/

Originally Posted by Me

this is a load of garbage. Yes it is not the only (first would be does it work.) but it is the most important once the min criteria are met. All projectors tend to be colour accurate enough, and colour accuracy is the least important which is why NTSC used a lot more bandwidth for B&W (luminosity) then colour and now we use 4:2:0 instead of 4:4:4. But for guys like you somehow it makes sense to believe that a 720 projector will somehow magically have better colour accuracy then its 1080p counterpart. Why not just calibrate that 1080p projector and have both?

as for the link, are you serious? you are using a shout out of small TVs from a piece of trash publication who's only reason for existence is to push what ever they are paid to push more. To make a point about projectors?

....

This whole argument started because you elected to attack me for correcting another individual regarding a blanket statement claiming a 1080p picture will ALWAYS be better than a 720p picture

followed by me restating that hometheatermag is useless asnd that if using reviews and buying advice from publications was enough to determine "better"
then someone else can make the case that since consumer reports picked several vizio TVs as top that they are the best. But CR does not value PQ as much as price and better value (for someone that does not care for PQ) makes Vizio TVs good deals in their eyes (when you also add that Vizio is a new rebrand they also don't have any defectivity stats, which is usualy also taken into consideration by them).


as for your earlier question

Why would it be any different for projectors?

since it applies to your current point as well.

they are extremely different beasts, and so like I pointed to Ricshoe
before they are not comparable. For example if I am buying a TV size is a
big factor, right? a 32" TV is not the same as a 70", while on the other hand two people that buy the same projector one can have a 5' pck while the other one a 10'. A TV is an all inclusive device, if you project the projector on a white sheet, a white wall or any of the multitude of screens out there the image will be different. TV buyers and projection buyers are not the same type of people, a TV is small (yes even a big 70" TV) and people sit far away, while projectors are used for big images with people siting close to them. All of these do change a bit the relationship. Would you say resolution should be as important for someone that watches a 3' wide TV (42") from 15' away as someone watching a 10' wide image 10' away because detail that can be perceived is not affected by distance and size? I am sure if we had a poll the front seats in an HT with projector would be 1x-2x screen width, while for TVs it would be 3x-5x.

here is a cool optical illusion



look at it from close and then from far. Do you see a difference? why? close enough you register the fine detail and it creates the image, from farther away the fine detail fades into the background and you only see the more bulky part of the image. Movies are filmed and meant to be tseen in theatres, that means close up, that is where the image is meant to be seen at.

That is why I don't feal like getting into TVs because it gets real murky real fast and it could happen where it is not as clean cut. But for FP (and this is the FP section and the question was about FP specifacly) it is much more clear cut even if you don't want to admit it.

[Anthony P]

But, I suppose this guy (and the ISF) also have some type of agenda to uphold, just like the folks at HT, huh?

only when you tell me how and ISF trained tech can make a 720p TV to output 1080p resolution through calibration.

And like I said before can you tell me why the whole movie and AV industry (film studios and CEs) decided the new format improved over DVD be it HD DVD or BD would increase in resolution to 1080p but stay with 4:2:0 colour instead of leaving it at 720p resolution and change to 4:4:4 colour?

PS it is also funny you linked to the article but totaly dismiss most of what it sais, now I don't fully agree with what he sais (I find those charts he beleives in a bit bogus) but

if you are serious about properly setting up your viewing room, you will definitely benefit from 1080p

So, most consumers will not be able to see the full benefit of their 1080p TV.

However, front projectors and rear projection displays are a different story

Any resolution less than 1080p is not detailed enough if you are sitting the proper distance from the screen. For me and many people with large projection screens, 1080p is the minimum resolution you'd want.

sure seems he fully agrees with you that some 720p projector are better then some 1080p projectors.

[Driver_King]

and if I point out that you should learn how to use quotes properly you will probably be insulted by that as well.

I've been here long enough to know how to properly quote. I was being lazy. I would not have taken offense to that. That just would have been another comment of ignorance that I hear here all the time.

I did not say anything like that, let's rewind,
....

I did not say you said that at all. If you read my post, you would have understood that I was referring to my original post and was stating that you had not responded to my questions, which you somewhat answered below (not really what I was looking for. It was a hypothetical question but nonetheless...)

as for your earlier question

since it applies to your current point as well.

they are extremely different beasts, and so like I pointed to Ricshoe
before they are not comparable. For example if I am buying a TV size is a
big factor, right? a 32" TV is not the same as a 70", while on the other hand two people that buy the same projector one can have a 5' pck while the other one a 10'. A TV is an all inclusive device, if you project the projector on a white sheet, a white wall or any of the multitude of screens out there the image will be different. TV buyers and projection buyers are not the same type of people, a TV is small (yes even a big 70" TV) and people sit far away, while projectors are used for big images with people siting close to them. All of these do change a bit the relationship. Would you say resolution should be as important for someone that watches a 3' wide TV (42") from 15' away as someone watching a 10' wide image 10' away because detail that can be perceived is not affected by distance and size? I am sure if we had a poll the front seats in an HT with projector would be 1x-2x screen width, while for TVs it would be 3x-5x.

here is a cool optical illusion



look at it from close and then from far. Do you see a difference? why? close enough you register the fine detail and it creates the image, from farther away the fine detail fades into the background and you only see the more bulky part of the image. Movies are filmed and meant to be tseen in theatres, that means close up, that is where the image is meant to be seen at.

That is why I don't feal like getting into TVs because it gets real murky real fast and it could happen where it is not as clean cut. But for FP (and this is the FP section and the question was about FP specifacly) it is much more clear cut even if you don't want to admit it.

This was not the point of my question. We are not talking about viewing distances here, which directly correlates with lines of resolution and why 1080p itself is better than 720p and the things that accompany it. You seem to be stuck on this issue, which we have attempted to sway you from returning to. Here is another example that I will throw your way once again. Would you prefer a poor quality, low light, poor contrast, low sharpness, uniformity, ect. to a high-end 720p projector, resolution and its counterparts aside? I wouldn't think so. This is an extreme example but an example regardless. This is the point we are all trying to make. We are talking about the physical unit. We do not simply all enjoy the lines of resolution of a projector. One big problem I have with certain projectors is black levels and black detail. If a 720p projector has much better blacks than all 1080p projectors in my range, then I'll be getting the 720p projector.

[Anthony P]

One big problem I have with certain projectors is black levels and black detail. If a 720p projector has much better blacks than all 1080p projectors in my range, then I'll be getting the 720p projector.

but that is personal bias, it does not make something better or worst. If someone works at a lada plant and takes pride in his work and his country and says "I won't buy anything but Lada" would that mean that a Lada is a better car then Ferrari? Only an idiot would argue that this guys bias should be used as a measuring, so why should yours be different. If you like the 720p projector, then buy it. If a particular projector suites you better, then buy it. But it is 100% irrelevant to the discussion. The question was can a 720p projector be better then a 1080p projector. And because of the fact that one is 720p that means that it cannot be close enough to reproducing the image accurately. And so the only way it can be more accurate then a 1080p projector would be if there is a major flaw in the testing or if there is a major flaw in that particular projector. Now if it must be DLP and nothing else for you then yes you could say “I like that DLP image better” no matter how bad it is and no matter how good that other projector using LCoS or LCD. But let me flip it on you and ask you this, If someone hates DLP (either irrational or physiological since some people get head aches and eye strain while watching DLP) would you agree if they say they like that image from a 10 year old LCD VGA projector better then the sim2K 1080 and so that old clunker is a better projector?

[Driver_King]

That is the nature of the argument Anthony. You have been missing the point. Obviously technically 1080p produces a better image than 720p. This is not the issue. The issue is if the real world image other than resolution should be the deciding factors (this is all very subjective). I may prefer depth and naturalness while you prefer brightness and vivid colors. Nobody here is saying what you are implying that if you like the 720p image better than a 1080p image, the 720p image is actually better technically than the 1080p image. We know technically 1080p is better than 720p. The problem we all are having is trying to show you that just because an image is 1080p doesn't automatically mean it is the picture that everyone is going to like. Reading a projector review and getting people's opinions is all subjective and biased in some regard. The question we are answering is "can the image of a 720p projector look more appealing and enjoyable than a 1080p projector?). The answer to that is absolutely. Here's another one. Can a standard V-6 engine car be beat a car with an V-8 engine? Yes, yes it can.

Originally Posted by Anthony P

but that is personal bias, it does not make something better or worst. If someone works at a lada plant and takes pride in his work and his country and says "I won't buy anything but Lada" would that mean that a Lada is a better car then Ferrari? Only an idiot would argue that this guys bias should be used as a measuring, so why should yours be different. If you like the 720p projector, then buy it. If a particular projector suites you better, then buy it. But it is 100% irrelevant to the discussion. The question was can a 720p projector be better then a 1080p projector. And because of the fact that one is 720p that means that it cannot be close enough to reproducing the image accurately. And so the only way it can be more accurate then a 1080p projector would be if there is a major flaw in the testing or if there is a major flaw in that particular projector. Now if it must be DLP and nothing else for you then yes you could say “I like that DLP image better” no matter how bad it is and no matter how good that other projector using LCoS or LCD. But let me flip it on you and ask you this, If someone hates DLP (either irrational or physiological since some people get head aches and eye strain while watching DLP) would you agree if they say they like that image from a 10 year old LCD VGA projector better then the sim2K 1080 and so that old clunker is a better projector?

[Anthony P]

The problem we all are having is trying to show you that just because an image is 1080p doesn't automatically mean it is the picture that everyone is going to like

but did I ever say it is the one everyone will like? the question was what is better? Now if we where talking the difference between true 720p (720x1280) and WXGA (768x1366) then the difference is so small and the inaccuracy in the image so small that it could be possible that other factors play a bigger role. But 1080x1920 vs 720x1280 the difference is extremely big in the amount of detail sacrificed (not to mention scaling artefacts). You add that 1080p content is available (and most likely what is discussed on this forum) and it makes it a slam dunk case. Obviously there can be a time when a particular projector is not suitable for the task (i.e like the original example where I gave a <1000 lumen 1080p projector projecting on a 20' image) but then it would be ridiculous to compare it that way. Things should be compared at their prime. this is not a joke, a long time ago I had a shoot out between a NEC and an Epson (the Epson dealer had given us the projector a few days earlier and I had played around with it and tweaked it, but I am no pro and I am sure it was not perfect) but during the shoot out the colours where more accurate then the NEC and everyone could see it so we asked the dealer who brought the NEC to tweak it. He tried going in the menus and changing stuff, but in the end he said that it was a new model and he did not really know it that well and at that one of the other guys there said why don't we tweak the Epson to look like the NEC, I could not believe the guy actually said something that stupid, what would it prove?

Some times things are 100% taste, what is better chocolate or vanilla ice cream, but other times there are ways to objectively test and rule which is better. For the most part it is not, like I said before, if two projectors are identical in every other way but one had a red tint and the other one an equal green tint, it comes down to opinion and taste, but in this case, like you seem to agree, there is a technical reason to call which is better. Would that mean that any 1080p projector will be better suited for a particular job then any 720p projector? No. I gave an example in my first post and here again for a case of the contrary. On the other hand if one moves the conversation from better to buying, then 1080p projectors run pretty much the full gamut, so I can’t picture a true videophile buying a 720p projector at this time, why would someone that supposedly cares about an image not care that around ½ of the detail is missing, that more then ½ (let’s face it downscaling adds artefacts) of what you see is wrong and most likely to a very important degree.

[Brain Sturgeon]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

OK, let's put it simple. And I know you will hate it because of the point you want to make. But let's say I make a 1080p red/black checkerboard and feed it as 1080i or 1080p to a projector. Do you think that no matter how un-uniform the pic is, no matter how uncalibrated it is that the 1080p projector will actually show a 1080p checkerboard but that the 720p projector won't be able to show that 1080p checkerboard in any fashion, no matter how uniform and colour gamut accurate it is. Or do you disagree and think you will see an extremely accurate 1080p checkerboard on the 720p projector?

As far as reproducing a checkerboard, both projectors could do it equally well assuming the VP on the 720p downscales well. Do you really think resolution matters in reproducing the geometric squares of a checkboard? The pixels are all square right? How is the square reproduced by a 720p projector inferior to a square produced by a 1080p projector in anything but pixel density?

What does this have to do with anything?

You don't have to convince me that there are benefits to 1080p over 720p. Everybody here knows that. What we are all trying to convince you of is that resolution is not the sole determinant of image quality, which you are hell bent on expressing.

Now I know when I bring the fact that we now live in a 1080p world. So let me ask you this as well

let's say I now make a 720p checkerboard of red and black boxes and output it at 720p to the same two projectors, will both display to varying accuracy a checkerboard of 720x1280 red/black boxes.

Assuming the VP of the 1080p projector does its job, the checkerboards can be equally accurate.

Again, what does this have to do with anything we are discussing here.

To reiterate, you are trying to convince everybody that 1080p is always better than 720p as far as projectors go, regardless of all other features or metrics (you don't need to add your usual qualifier that this could be true in an "absurd" comparison). All any of us has to do is provide one concrete, real world example where this is not true, and you are wrong. A number of us have done this, yet you are still trying to convince us that you are right, and we are all a bunch of blind, fallacy spewing video morons.

no I knocked the poser. If someone works in a research lab or in some kind of security force and they need a bright 720p image because it is fed 720p and it needs to be big and in a bright room then a bright 720p projector makes sense, if someone will put it in a conference room connected to PC's/laptops then wxga ("720p") makes more sense for simplicity. On the other hand if someone says I don't mind spending a lot of money because I want the best pic possible then buys the most expensive 720p projector out there and connects it to the best and most expensive VHS, I will call the guy a poser since he knows nothing about films and HT since he could have something much better then VHS at home , if he gets that projector and the most expensive DVD player then again he is a poser since he can get a lot better then DVD at home. If he gets that same projector and connects it to a BD player then again he is still a poser because he knows enough to get BD where there is a much better pic but he ends up killing the detail by down scaling it to 720p to watch it in that 720p projector.

How is what you just typed here different than you knocking anyone who buys a 720p projector over a 1080p projector, regardless of other features/performance of the projector? You didn't provide any scenarios where a person who buys a 720p PJ would not be a poser, hence all purchasers of 720p projectors are posers. No?

When I started out VGA/SVGA projectors where as good as it got, and there where many very high end and expensive ones. Would you say that a 10 year old SVGA projector can be better then any new projector today (be it 720p or 1080p)?

No, new projectors will typically be the better of the two. And your point is?

not at all, the assumption you are giving and others is like Charles3669
put it " I read an article once that said resolution is the 3rd most important thing when it comes to picture"

I don't know if you would put it third or higher or lower, but to put it simply resolution is less important then other aspects. Let me ask you (and him) these simple question. To get you to think of resolution

Somehow, you've got it in your mind that I think that resolution is not important. That could not be further from the truth. I've stated many times that 1080p > 720p. WE ALL KNOW THIS!

I don't know where it belongs on any potential list of important contributors to a projector's image quality; and any such list would be controversial anyway. But what I do know is that it is not the only determinant of image quality. Even if it was considered #1, what if #2-10 were better on the 720p projector than on the 1080p? This is where you are trying to argue that 1080p is always better than 720p regardless of any other quality of the projector. Your position is much harder to defend than the one most of us are trying to make.

Again, all we have to do is provide a realistic scenario where this could be true, and your argument falls apart. I think a number of us have done this. Whether you want to accept it or not is up to you. I don't think most of us care anymore.

1) do you think the whole movie/AV business have no idea what they are doing and know absolutely nothing about video content (unlike some guys on a forum)? why do we talk about SD or HD, why do we talk of 480 or 720 or 1080? why, when they moved from DVD to HD DVD/BD did they decide to up the resolution but leave the colour space to 4:2:0, they did not up it, they did not raise the bits per colour, they left colour as is but for video they upgraded resolution almost exclusively to any other upgrades that they could have done.

Okay, so humans are more sensitive to luma than chroma, and compromises had to be made for bandwidth and cost reasons to use a 4:2:0 colour space. So you are arguing that colour is less important to us than a 1080p picture. And? So what? How does bringing up colour space advance any argument of how a 1080p PJ will always be better than a 720p PJ? Does it somehow pain you to believe that some people value color accuracy higher than pixel count? But I guess color accuracy is impossible with 1080p material in anything but a 1080p projector right?

1) an evil movie hater finds a Genie, the Genie tells him he has three wishes, the guy says my first wish is to be undisputed king of the world for ever. His second wish is that all video content be decimated by going no more detail then 108x192 resolution and no more colour (i.e. B&W), the genie replies using "And" will make it two wishes , and the guy deciding he would rather have a third wish that he will limit it to one of those and asks you your opinion since he could not decided. What would you rather live with for ever, 108x192 or B&W? let's say he made the other more restrictive, only 256 shades of grey?

I am willing to accept that different people may answer this question differently, are you? Or do you just assume that anybody who chooses colour over resolution is an idiot?

no, go back to my first post and something that I restated many times over and over, it is not every time nor regardless of any other quality of the projector. it is every time as long as we don't make ridiculous comparisons. I said it clearly that if we allow the ridiculous like picking a 1080p projector that does not have the brightness required for a situation while comparing it to a 720p that does have more then enough brightness needed for that same situation falls on a ridiculous comparison, in other words you should not be looking at that 1080p model no matter what other features it has. What I also stated is that talking about colour accuracy makes no sense because the 720p cannot accurately have the right colours in the right place over the whole image compared to a 1080p (not to mention that colour accuracy is not a strong point of the visual system) and that uniformity can be important if all else is equal but it does not tend to be as important (scenes will seldom have one colour over the whole pic and in 99.999 of the cases it is barely visible)

The reason I think the ridiculous should not be allowed is that they often, if not always, lead to the wrong conclusion.

No, it is not always a ridiculous comparison that finds the image from a 720p projector superior to that of a 1080p projector. I've given at least one reasonable scenario for this. Again, believe what you want at this point.

for example if I take a flat 2x4 or a straight edge I am sure we can agree that it can be used to determine if something is flat or not, if I put it on a bent/warped 2x4 it won't touch evenly or every where, if I put it on a ball it will only touch only very little. On the other hand if I bring it outside, put it on the ground and move the dirt around a bit, chances are that I can make it touch every where, would that be proof that the earth is flat? no because I went to the ridiculous that straight piece is too small compared to the world. so the world can be flat enough on such a small area but it does not make the world flat.

or this math issue

let's assume A=B
then

1) AA=AB
2) AA-BB=AB-BB
3) (A+B)(A-B)=A(A-B)
4) (A+B)=A
5) A+A=A
6)2A=A
7)2=1

obviously 2 cannot equal 1
but why? in step2 it was turned into 0 (i.e. 0=0) and even though in most cases we can just remove a multiple from one side of the equation and the other and keep it the same (i.e. 6=2x ->2*3=2*x-> 3=x) you can't do that with 0 (i.e. 4*0=0=5*0 but 5 does not equal 4) and so when we removed (A-B) we did something ridiculous since A-B=0

What? You've got to be kidding me with this line of argument. So the possibility of a projected 720p image being superior to a 1080p image is as ridiculous as the earth being flat or of 2=1. Okay, I got your point. At this point, believe what you want.

I did not say it can't compete, the question was "better" the only way to determine better is the one that more accurately represents the pic. After all, that is the job of the projector. Now if we agree that it is what is most accurate, sometimes it can be hard to judge let's say two projectors are identical but one has a green push and the other a red push, which is better? one is slightly more even but has a tint while the other is more un even, which is better?.... but in this case one can't be close to representing the true image accurately while the other one will have minor issues as I explained with the checkerboard example. Now do we only watch checkerboard patterns on our projectors? no but it clearly shows the BIG issue with a 720p projector trying to show 1080p material. You are losing a hell of a lot of detail in every frame no matter how much better it is in other respects and to totally dismiss it as unimportant makes no sense.

Again, 1080p > 720p. I am not dismissing the importance of resolution in projected image qualtiy here. You are making the incorrect assumption that I don't care about resolution. I know the benefits of 1080p-- I own a 1080p projector and will continue to do so in the near-term. The problem is, you insist on dismissing everything else besides resolution. That is what you are not getting here. I just can't get over the fact that anybody who would be reasonably knowledgable about front projectors would be willing to place resolution on so high a pedestal that no other factors matter.

[Brain Sturgeon]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

And the issue with Brain's argument is that he refuses to accept that 1080p content exists, so everything else takes a disproportionate value.

Dude, pass a little of what it is that you're smoking.

I've never said anything that suggests that I don't recognize that benefits of 1080p content or projection. I fully understand it and buy into it.

However, what I also understand is that there are other factors in the reproduction of projected image quality that make enormous differences, to the point where this difference can supercede the resolution difference between the images.

You are the one who is unwilling to accept that there is anything else in a projectors performance besides pixel count that makes as big a difference, outside of "absurd" comparisons.

Believe what you want. I'm done posting rebuttals here.

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

but that is personal bias, it does not make something better or worse.

It does hold true though, because accurate blacks, accurate colours, ANSI contrast, etc., can be just as valid as measurements of performance as static resolution. One 720p projector may calibrate far closer to ISF standards than one 1080p projector, is the 1080p projector automatically better just because it resolves more detail? The answer of course is personal bias!!

What people should take from this thread, what is important, is that resolution is NOT everything and there are many factors that should be taken into account when coming to the conclusion of what is best. No doubt most 1080p projectors will perform better than their 720p counterparts nowadays, but it's still incorrect to state adamantly as a blanket statement that "1080p is better than 720p" without including an asterisk followed by (in 95% of cases) or whatever percentage you feel comfortable with.