Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by peep6543

Hm. Gotta tell your ISP to figure that shite out!

Mine only improved when I moved. I get fibre now but im still all in on discs. Fibre is handy for games though.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Besides the Oppo 203 and 205, the LG UP970, the Cambridge CXUHD, the upcoming Panasonic UB 820 and 9000, and the Sony x700, all do, or soon will, support Dolby Vision.

You exaggerate about Oppo being the only UHD players, plural, with proper Dolby Vision support. The LG and the high end Cambridge model have it now. The two Panansonic models will have it when they are released this year and the Sony x700 will via a future firmware update.

I stand corrected regarding the Cambridge (never hear of it) and the LG. Last I checked everybody but Oppo had only promised support via a future firmware update (often after multiple delays).

In summary, 4 players have Dolby Vision now with 3 more coming soon for a total of 7 players. The two Oppo models will end production this June and the remaining ones are selling very fast

They are really nice players, but I wouldn't touch them at this point. UHD technology is still in flux and it's very unlikely that the Oppos will still get HDR10+ support and other things that may become important in the future.

And you are beyond wrong about the audio; the audio on a blu-ray or a 4K UHD disc can not only be of audiophile caliber, it can be damn near aurally orgasmic.

That is not what I meant. It's about movies. Does anyone really care about compression artifacts in a Michael Bay explosion? Probably not. Many people don't have an understanding what audio compression really does. It does *not* diminish dynamic range, which is what makes the floor shake. It is also perfectly capable of providing immersive surround sound (as you may know even Dolby Atmos can be used with a lossy base layer). It can add subtle artifacts that don't really matter for voice dialog or audio effects. I bet most people posting on this forum wouldn't be able to tell AC3 from lossless compression in a movie in a level-matched blind test using the same source material.

Digital fans tout convenience and a "good enough" image, but they never boast about the audio. Instead they just shrug it off if they mention it at all. I, however, want fully immersive audio along with the best image; they don't just compliment each other, they elevate the experience to the near sublime. Discs provide that consistently; streaming does not.

That is your opinion. I know many AC3 tracks (not just from streaming but also on DVD) that sound absolutely spectacular. Even experts have trouble telling AC3 at 640kbps apart from the uncompressed source. The quality of the sound mix is much more important than the codec.

[stonesfan129]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

It’s always hyperbole when something does not fit with your argument isn’t it? Audio is a HUGE part of the HT experience. If it isn’t for you, then you are just some geezer with a tele and a sound bar, not a HT enthusiast.

There's no point in even arguing anymore. If people are happy with **** quality then that's their problem. Those of us who value quality know better.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

They are really nice players, but I wouldn't touch them at this point. UHD technology is still in flux and it's very unlikely that the Oppos will still get HDR10+ support and other things that may become important in the future.

Oppo has committed to honoring its 2 year warranty from the date of the last unit sold and to keep offering repair service and firmware updates for at least as long.

They are currently testing a new firmware that addresses Sony TVs low latency Dolby Vision requirements. It should be released soon. They also announced that they are investigating HDR10+ for a future firmware update. I have been told that currently no 4K UHD discs even use HDR10+, but I have not confirmed it.

The Oppo 203/ 205 models are already 16 months old, and the first with full Dolby Vision support, and by the time the warranty has expired on units sold this year, these models will be over 3 years old and they will have had firmware support for all of that time. No other manufacturer supports their players with firmware updates as long as Oppo. My old Oppo 93 was supported for 4 years.

The other manufacturers launch new models each year and quickly drop support of last year's model. Sony x800/ 1000, anyone? Neither of these will ever get Dolby Vision, but this year's brand new economy player, the Sony x700 will get it. Sony has already abandoned last years models as far as Dolby Vision is concerned.

As for the audio matter, I will leave it with the simple fact that many Digital fans readily admit that this is a weakness for streaming providers. It isn't just my opinion, it is also theirs.

[OneWayFilms]

My daughter was visiting and she wanted to see Happy Death Day. I was already comfortable and didn't feel like getting up to get the disk, so I conveniently used my remote to turn on VUDU and played the digital copy for her. About 10 minutes in, it started buffering for awhile. I finally got up and got the bluray disk to finish the film. Not only did it NOT buffer anymore, but the image was actually SHARPER and a little bit better than the digital was, and I own the HD digital.

This experience confirms my decision to stick to bluray disks and ONLY use VUDU digital to host my FREE digital codes or ONLY buy HD digital IF the film simply isn't available on bluray.

PHYSICAL MEDIA ALL THE WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!

[gotmule]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

Does anyone really care about compression artifacts in a Michael Bay explosion? Probably not. Many people don't have an understanding what audio compression really does. It does *not* diminish dynamic range, which is what makes the floor shake. It is also perfectly capable of providing immersive surround sound (as you may know even Dolby Atmos can be used with a lossy base layer).

Dynamic range is not necessarily what makes the floor shake, as it is the difference between the quietest and loudest parts of the movie. You don’t need to be loud to feel the impact, but you do need a track that has been mixed well. There are plenty of moments in movies I would not consider loud or dynamic that have effective and accurate LFE levels where some serious air is being pushed.

13 Hours is a Michael Bay movie, and I am pretty damn happy that the Atmos mix sounds the way it does with no artifacts on any explosion, as I would consider the audio to be near reference....and actually a pretty good movie.

I agree that an AC3 track can be immersive, as I can remember plenty of dvds and laser discs where I was blown away because that was the best available option at the time. Similar to when I first popped in a CD of Dark Side of the Moon back in the day. Nowadays listening to the SACD version, I want to throw up even thinking about popping in the original CD. If a rental Blu-ray happens to show up without a lossless audio track, it goes right back in the envelope, as I know there is a better way to experience the movie. Kinda like when I first had a Bacardi and Coke thinking it was pretty good and got the job done. As I have aged however, my palate has become a bit more refined as I have discovered better options in my choice of cocktails. Same thing with my ears, as there are better choices to be made.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by jayman3

I was watching Jumanji: Welcome to the Jungle over the weekend. My parents decided we were better off purchasing the digital copy instead.

About an hour into the movie, it suddenly paused and buffered for a good 15 minutes before resuming playback.

I said aloud, "this wouldn't have been an issue if we had the Blu-ray disc."

And that is why I'll stick to physical copies.

Originally Posted by OneWayFilms

My daughter was visiting and she wanted to see Happy Death Day. I was already comfortable and didn't feel like getting up to get the disk, so I conveniently used my remote to turn on VUDU and played the digital copy for her. About 10 minutes in, it started buffering for awhile. I finally got up and got the bluray disk to finish the film. Not only did it NOT buffer anymore, but the image was actually SHARPER and a little bit better than the digital was, and I own the HD digital.

This experience confirms my decision to stick to bluray disks and ONLY use VUDU digital to host my FREE digital codes or ONLY buy HD digital IF the film simply isn't available on bluray.

PHYSICAL MEDIA ALL THE WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes to Stream Movies you have to have a High Bandwidth, Consistent, Solid Internet connection. Your set up should also not be Wireless, Hard Wired will produce the best Bandwidth you have. I have Movie Nights all the time when my wife invites her friends over to watch some of the latest Movies. I have never had any problems. Just like your Disc Player is Hard Wired with an HDMI connection for the maximum Bit Rate, your Streaming should be Hard Wired too!

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by peep6543

What internet speed do your parents have??

Originally Posted by Steedeel

It isn’t always about speeds. Some people just have intermittent drop outs. Sometimes it’s the area.

Originally Posted by peep6543

Hm. Gotta tell your ISP to figure that shite out!

Originally Posted by Vilya

I have to make a service call on average every two months; my ISP always wants to blame my modem because I own my own and they don't get any rental revenue from me.

My modem has never been at fault; I have tried theirs and it changed nothing. They are just incompetent. They are also the only broadband provider here and their attitude is:

They are the only game in town and they just don't care.

Additionally, sometimes it is the streaming service that is unable to meet the demands on their servers, compounding the chances for internet dependent failures.

First you have to clean house and make sure you're set up properly. You should not have drop offs, if you are your ISP has a serious balance problem. This is common with Copper Cable Providers. High Quality Streaming is putting a strain on ISP's. If your ISP is lacking in consistent service, it might be time to change. Then if you don't have ISP options, and High Consistent Bandwidth are priorities, then like Steedeel says a move should be considered.

[Vilya]

Moving in the hopes of getting reliable internet is not realistic. I am not leaving my family and my friends so that I can stream videos better. It is an absurd suggestion from whomever suggests it.

On a good day, my internet looks like this:

[Show spoiler]Speed06April2018A.jpg

On a less than good day, it looks like this:

[Show spoiler]Attachment 197087

I have had about 12 service calls (where they actually send a tech) in 3 years time and every time they come out to my home, they feed me some different kind of techno babble. Each visit gets me a new theory and no visit fixes anything for long.

Such wildly unreliable internet service is one of the major reasons why I will never allow myself to become dependent on the internet to watch movies.

My electric utility rarely fails and when it does it is usually due to an electrical storm when I have everything turned off anyways. My electricity, my disc player, and the disc themselves are infinitely more dependable.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by alchav21

First you have to clean house and make sure you're set up properly. You should not have drop offs, if you are your ISP has a serious balance problem. This is common with Copper Cable Providers. High Quality Streaming is putting a strain on ISP's. If your ISP is lacking in consistent service, it might be time to change. Then if you don't have ISP options, and High Consistent Bandwidth are priorities, then like Steedeel says a move should be considered.

To be fair sir, I didn’t say that. I said I moved. That wasn’t the reason. It was just a bonus.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Moving in the hopes of getting reliable internet is not realistic. I am not leaving my family and my friends so that I can stream videos better. It is an absurd suggestion from whomever suggests it.

On a good day, my internet looks like this:

[Show spoiler]Attachment 197086

On a less than good day, it looks like this:

[Show spoiler]Attachment 197087

I have had about 12 service calls (where they actually send a tech) in 3 years time and every time they come out to my home, they feed me some different kind of techno babble. Each visit gets me a new theory and no visit fixes anything for long.

Such wildly unreliable internet service is one of the major reasons why I will never allow myself to become dependent on the internet to watch movies.

My electric utility rarely fails and when it does it is usually due to an electrical storm when I have everything turned off anyways. My electricity, my disc player, and the disc themselves are infinitely more dependable.

By 2020, in the U.K., if we are without internet service we will be compensated I believe. That should get things moving. The compensation rises for every day without service.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Bates_Motel

It won't disappear in the near future, but people should start facing the facts that streaming and digital downloads are 100% the future, and will take over physical media at some point sooner rather than later. You will have a scenario where the biggest blockbusters are available on disc, but most other titles (just like CDs) are not. It's not a matter of if, but a matter of when, and since Internet speeds are capable of 4K streaming now in many areas (yet haven't been offered for sale yet), you'll start to see more of a gravitational move to streaming once that happens.

The fact that you can still buy DVDs has nothing to whatsoever on the lifespan of blu-ray. It's still the cheapest means of replication and many people don't care about HD quality any way and think DVD is good enough. I would honestly think blu-ray might disappear BEFORE DVD, for those 2 factors alone, unless blu-ray costs plummet. There's so many QC errors on discs now that companies have to spend extra money to fix, that it's driving the market into the ground. And why are there errors? Because profits are in the toilet, and the costs of replicating, shipping, printing artwork, physics cases, overstock, etc, can all be eliminated with streaming and/or downloads. Plain and simple.

Streaming yes. Digital downloads absolutely not. The growth is not strong enough. Digital HD is just a stepping stone to subscription for the industry.

[Steedeel]

I could have done with back up from some of you guys in the physical versus digital thread!

[malakaheso]

Digital is the future, but we really have no idea how long it will be before it completely takes over.

Successful niche products can hang around for a while. We may end up paying more for discs because of boutique labels who don't benefit from economies of scale, but we are already doing that now. It might just be the norm in the future.

In the end, lovers of physical media should continue to push back the tide and enjoy the ride while it lasts without worrying too much about a future that may or may not be imminent.

[Hazel Motes]

I'll be able to better give my opinion once I see what Netflix decides to do with The Irishman.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

And most people can't tell the difference between HD and 4K either. Do we really want to use "most people" as a good test?

Visual differences are much easier to detect and to objectively verify.

Just because you can't tell the difference between lossy and lossless audio doesn't mean you should claim they're all the same or diminish the views of those who can tell the difference.

I'll take those people's claims seriously once they have done a correctly executed blind test. Which for some reason they never do.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Oppo has committed to honoring its 2 year warranty from the date of the last unit sold and to keep offering repair service and firmware updates for at least as long.

I believe that they will continue to fix bugs for a while, but I doubt that they'll have resources for significant new development work.

They also announced that they are investigating HDR10 for a future firmware update. I have been told that currently no 4K UHD discs even use HDR10, but I have not confirmed it.

I assume you mean HDR10+ (almost all UHD BDs use HDR10).

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by gotmule

13 Hours is a Michael Bay movie, and I am pretty damn happy that the Atmos mix sounds the way it does with no artifacts on any explosion

Would you be able to tell if there are artifacts? It takes a bit of training to know what to listen for.

If a rental Blu-ray happens to show up without a lossless audio track, it goes right back in the envelope, as I know there is a better way to experience the movie.

That's just the thing. Audio perception is heavily influenced by expectation bias. If you think something "should" sound better, it will. That's why blind tests are absolutely necessary to really understand the differences.

[squidzilla]

You can not tell right away if there is compression in the audio? I can tell right away once any thing that goes past dialogue only begins to happen. Music, sound effects, LFE, etc. All easy to spot. Personally, I think the higher quality audio is pearls before swine for most people. I seriously doubt most people on the digital side would be considered audiophiles on any level. This is a movie forum not an audio video forum.

[meremortal]

The smaller and/or boutique labels have been doing a great job getting more catalog titles released, while the major studios have mostly given up on them to focus on new releases or pointless anniversary/reissues with nothing added but a digital code. Seems there will be a market for cult films on disc for a while with companies like Shout Factory, etc. But I do wonder if more and more of the less popular catalog titles from the majors will start going out of print pretty soon along with 3D. The major studio support is crucial to survive though. If even one of them like Disney or Universal suddenly made an announcement to stop printing blu rays I'd be worried.