Rollerball (1975) (Standard [SOLD OUT] + Encore Editions) (Limited Edition)

[Musicguy]

Originally Posted by EricJ

And guess who doesn't: Blu-ray.
There's a problem with that LaserDisc analogy:LaserDisc was the best-kept secret in home theater. Casual moviebuffs--most of whom wondered why it didn't record programs--didn't find out the advantages it had over VHS until the mid 90's or so (by which point it had already been out for twelve years), and those "niche" fans had to order it by mail, because you often didn't have to take off your shoes to count the number of accessible retail outlets in your state. The most mainstream "starter" laserdisk available to the mass public was the horrendously designed RCA, and while it may have won a few suburban converts to the idea of flat movies, it didn't build or keep them.
Eventually we found out that LaserDisc referred to Pioneer and Voyager--And by the time Siskel & Ebert let us in on the "secret", guess who'd already arrived to take all the credit for better sound/picture, indestructible media and no rewinding.
.

Laserdisc had a few strikes against it from the start:
1. You couldn't record
2. RCA released an inferior disc which was CHEAPER to buy (news spread and many thought laserdisc was also inferior)
3. Porn help drive the sales of VCRs - Laserdisc didn't release porn titles (not at first and not many titles later on)
4. The discs had to be turned over (God people were lazy)
5. People didn't care about picture quality or stereo sound, they cared about cost (Which is why Beta lost the war)
6. You couldn't record

[Musicguy]

Funny thing about Laserdisc is that originally the titles were cheaper to buy than the VHS and Beta tapes - tapes were about $90 and discs between $30 and $40 (depending if the film needed one or two discs)

People didn't want to buy films in the early 80's (they still don't) It wasn't until the late 80's when big films were priced to "sell through" usually at $20 that people started to buy films (and only some films - people didn't invest in large libraries - only film collectors)

DVDs were always priced at the magic $20 collectable price, but most could be purchased for $10 or less. For about 6 years there was a DVD boom and people collected DVDs - they were better than VHS and the were easy to store. Most people still don't own large numbers of DVD. But collectors do - it's not uncommon for a collector to have 500 films on DVD/blu-ray where they would only have 100 on laser (Costs were too high/storage etc)

Film collecting will always be a niche market - it was only for a brief shinning moment, when the studios were racking in the bucks from DVD sales, that was known as....well, those were the money days and they're gone...maybe they will return for a short visit someday, maybe not

[Cliff]

Originally Posted by mar3o

I'm 43. I never bought into the laserdisc format - I was in my late teens/early 20's then and had no money for such things. I mostly rented VHS tapes and taped my own movies off tv until I got into DVD and blu-ray. So not everybody out there who buys blu-rays were laserdisc junkies. To us, the price of DVDs is what we expect a movie to cost. Sure, VHS films cost as much as $90 when VHS first started out, but do you think people now care or even know about that? They expect films to cost around $15-$25, and that's because that's what the average price of a DVD settled on. You can offer a higher quality format like blu-ray, and charge more if you like, but if you think you're going to stock them in large quantities in stores and expect the same people that bought DVDs to buy blu-rays, the studios need to realize that people expect the movies to still cost around the same price. To most people, it's still the same-sized disc, with a movie and maybe some extras on it. HD or not, DVD has people used to expecting their movies to cost around that $15-$25 mark.

If $15-$25 is the expected threshold, then why would anyone be surprised or angered at $20-$30 for a much better product? Would anyone expect to pay the same price for a Mercedes as they would pay for a Ford?

But no, I'm not saying most Blu-ray collectors were LaserDisc junkies, but rather that most LaserDisc junkies are absolutely Blu-ray collectors and there's a lot more in common with the formats and it's economics than not. It's becoming increasingly difficult to just go out to the closest store near you to buy the Blu-ray you want. In 1993 I used to drive anywhere between 45 and 90 minutes to one of only three stores that sold LDs in the Denver/Boulder area. There were no discounts. Getting something for $30 (like Speed when it first came out) was considered the rare and exceptional bargain. But people who went through that period of collecting LDs have a slightly different opinion of and appreciation for Blu-ray. For example... would you pay $60 or $70 for a movie-only edition of something? Because we all did in the Laser days. That's not to say we're all right and others are wrong, just that our collecting mentality comes from a different corner than many other people's. Our collecting habits weren't forged in the days of reel.com discounts and Wal-Mart dump bins. So when we see people complaining about paying $30 for something that is 4x the quality of what we were collecting 20 years ago (or even 5), it doesn't make sense.

I'll be honest, when I hear about people dumpster diving the Wal-Mart bin to find WHATEVER, just as long as it's $5, I get kind of sick and a little sad. I truly LOVE movies and so the idea of movies being given as much consideration as a fast food value menu item is depressing. Again, that's not to say I'm right, just that I have a different perspective, but as someone who collected under much different circumstances I very clearly see things reverting back. What Twilight Time is doing is kind of sifting out the various types of collectors and sort of taking us back to an age when the title of the disc was far more important than the price. It's may sound elitist (which I know some people love to sling back) but it's not... it's said out of a deep admiration and love of movies to the degree that I hate seeing them regarded as disposable and with a desire by some to increasingly devalue them. So when I see someone say that just because a movie is 20 years old it's not worth more than $10, that bothers me. It's the same sort of mentality that's caused an infestation of talkers and texters in movie theaters. Movies are no longer that thing you do... they've been demoted to that thing you're doing in the meantime. A distraction from what we're REALLY doing. They're a byproduct. They're ancillary now. A lot of people don't collect movies anymore... they collect $10 discs and hopefully it comes with a decent movie.

Originally Posted by slimdude

You don't like to be concise do you?

I will use as many or as few words as necessary to adequately cover all of my points.

[chriszilla]

Originally Posted by Cliff

Movies are no longer that thing you do... they've been demoted to that thing you're doing in the meantime. A distraction from what we're REALLY doing. They're a byproduct. They're ancillary now. A lot of people don't collect movies anymore... they collect $10 discs and hopefully it comes with a decent movie.

It's sad to realize this, but you're dead on. And truthfully, Hollywood bears a large part of the responsibility for this, not just the changes in technology. The way movies have been made and marketed over the past 15 (or so) years has exacerbated this. Then again, maybe it was inevitable??

A few people here missed the point of the LD/Blu-Ray comparison, but hopefully you clarified it for them in the post above. Again, well said!

[Viper187]

Originally Posted by Musicguy

Funny thing about Laserdisc is that originally the titles were cheaper to buy than the VHS and Beta tapes - tapes were about $90 and discs between $30 and $40 (depending if the film needed one or two discs)

People didn't want to buy films in the early 80's (they still don't) It wasn't until the late 80's when big films were priced to "sell through" usually at $20 that people started to buy films (and only some films - people didn't invest in large libraries - only film collectors)

DVDs were always priced at the magic $20 collectable price, but most could be purchased for $10 or less. For about 6 years there was a DVD boom and people collected DVDs - they were better than VHS and the were easy to store. Most people still don't own large numbers of DVD. But collectors do - it's not uncommon for a collector to have 500 films on DVD/blu-ray where they would only have 100 on laser (Costs were too high/storage etc)

Film collecting will always be a niche market - it was only for a brief shinning moment, when the studios were racking in the bucks from DVD sales, that was known as....well, those were the money days and they're gone...maybe they will return for a short visit someday, maybe not

True enough. I have 550 BDs and ~1250 DVDs (not counting those upgraded to BD or included with them). I think people are too forgiving of BD price from major studios though. Ok, movies used to be expensive. Ok, small studios have to charge a little more. Fine. However, I think it's ridiculous the big studios are still trying to milk catalog titles that were $5 on DVD (or still are) for $20 after they're out a year or more (Maverick comes to mind).

They're still ****ing us over constantly by not including all cuts of movies (Punisher 2004, Payback, Live Free or Die Hard). They're still melting plastic to the spines of the cases instead of shrink wrapping, and still releasing slip covers with no wrapper to get sticker raped by the stores. They're still using garbage non-standard cardboard packaging that scratches a lot of discs. WHY can't we get through to these studios that we want solid releases in GOOD packaging that's 100% safe for the discs!?!?

[mar3o]

Originally Posted by Musicguy

This is partially true, yes catalog doesn't sell anywhere near what a recently released theatrical film sells - but the fact that most stores do not sell catalog titles limits the sales of those titles...especially Twilight Time...most people who shop at Walmart and Best Buy have never heard of Twilight Time...Unbelieveable you say??????....Besides have you ever tried to find a catalog title at Walmart - they are usually thrown in a bin with a hundred other titles and you have to dig in and one never knows what's going to be in there - not the best way to purchase a film.

Best Buy has 3 sections Action, Children and Comedy, Oh yes and some stores have horror, good luck finding "The Godfather" which section does that fall under?

That leaves Barnes and Noble - which is pricey. True the studios are pushing for downloads - it's cheaper for them, they cut out the middle man and they don't have to worry about inventory - there is none!. Of course they want us to download - Hey, they'd have you milk the cow too if the stores would shelter and feed them!

All very true. I usually skip the Wal-mart bin simply because I hate digging and clawing through the mountain of discs trying to find something, and half the discs in those bins end up with lose discs due to people clawing through them all day long. Horrible way to sell catalog titles. No wonder catalog sales in retail is poor - look how they treat them. By dumping them in bins they're essentially telling people that blu-rays are just bargain junk. I'm surprised the studios aren't more upset over how their products are sold in stores like that.

Originally Posted by Musicguy

I should add Barnes and Noble is on it's way out, I'd be surprised if the chain is around in 5 years - all other book store chains have gone under, no nobody buys books anymore (Borders Books is sorely missed by me!)

Wal-Mart has one or two aisles of Blu-ray and DVD product and maybe one or two bins (where heaps of product are thrown upon each other), Target may have two or three aisles.

Compared to Tower Records/Video which had whole departments or stores devoted to DVD product...sames with Virgin - whole floors of DVD product, plus we had Good Guys and Circuit City (those stores are now gone due to on-line competition, mis-management and Best Buy's desire to eliminate the competition by stocking every DVD title released then limiting their selection once the competition went under - Yay! Let's hear it for Best Buy (I give them 5 years at most before they call it quits - the quality of their stores has hit rock bottom over and people know it)

There is no shelf space anymore - Wal-Mart, Target and Best Buy call all the shots for retail product at this point and they can only stock the top 40 hits (which is the latest theatrical release blockbuster and Disney kid stuff which appeals to their moms) The studios hate dealing with them (remember Wal-Mart wanted Pan and Scan copies of the DVD for Joe Six Pack)

Anyone interested in film has to buy on-line. Most of those know of Amazon. Less know of the other on-line retailers. Even less know of Twilight Time. Don't believe me, go ahead, ask Grandma!!!

More good points and I agree it's sad about Barnes and Noble - I love books and my girlfriend does too - we love that store, but I gotta be honest - their prices are very expensive for most of their books, other than their featured coffee-table books up front which are always a good price. Often we just buy our books on Amazon, due to the huge difference in price. And yeah, Best Buy is already dead - and they know it - they just don't seem to want to give up and face it. I just went through an awful customer service experience with them last week and it took several phone calls to corporate and over 2 hours on the phone to get it squared away. And 2 weeks ago I called up 1-800-Best-Buy to order 3 blu-rays to get a price-match, and it took 50 minutes to get the order placed - and that wasn't hold time - that's just how slow and incompetent they are there.

[mar3o]

Originally Posted by EricJ

And guess who doesn't: Blu-ray.
There's a problem with that LaserDisc analogy:LaserDisc was the best-kept secret in home theater. Casual moviebuffs--most of whom wondered why it didn't record programs--didn't find out the advantages it had over VHS until the mid 90's or so (by which point it had already been out for twelve years), and those "niche" fans had to order it by mail, because you often didn't have to take off your shoes to count the number of accessible retail outlets in your state. The most mainstream "starter" laserdisk available to the mass public was the horrendously designed RCA, and while it may have won a few suburban converts to the idea of flat movies, it didn't build or keep them.
Eventually we found out that LaserDisc referred to Pioneer and Voyager--And by the time Siskel & Ebert let us in on the "secret", guess who'd already arrived to take all the credit for better sound/picture, indestructible media and no rewinding.

Why you are STILL saying "Blu-ray's a fad" like you did nine years ago, I do not know. Maybe you just overslept. Or just need to think up some new material.
But it's a whole lot easier to buy movies on Blu-ray than it was a while ago.



They absolutely DO NOT HAVE TO CARE. If they buy a movie, it's on Blu-ray.
In much the same way that they find it hard to buy a movie on VHS today.



Exactly: The TT complaint isn't about buying movies, it's about not being able to buy movies.
So, not every movie sells out like Christine...What if they do?
If TT kept the licenses to their movies as Warner-style MOD's , they'd be able to sell a few more to the, quote-fingers, "few" people who want a copy--But in trying to make a statement about the hand-wringing view they have of the industry at the moment, they're taking their own movies and a portion of their own customer base hostage over it.

Great points. As you said, the majority of people were not aware of laserdiscs. You had to go to specialty stores for the most part to buy them or rent them. That's totally different than how blu-ray is marketed and sold. Blu-ray is targeted at the mainstream audience, like DVDs were. It's not the same thing at all.

[Hypnosifl]

Originally Posted by EricJ

Exactly: The TT complaint isn't about buying movies, it's about not being able to buy movies.
So, not every movie sells out like Christine...What if they do?
If TT kept the licenses to their movies as Warner-style MOD's , they'd be able to sell a few more to the, quote-fingers, "few" people who want a copy--But in trying to make a statement about the hand-wringing view they have of the industry at the moment, they're taking their own movies and a portion of their own customer base hostage over it.

Yes, I don't care about TT charging $30 if that's the best way for them to make money, but I don't understand why they chose a contract that ties their hands by saying no title can have more than 3000 in its initial print run, and both they and the studios are forbidden from printing up a new set for three years. Is it because they believe that the "limited" nature is part of the selling point for their customers, and that if they weren't limited in this way, less people would be willing to pay the $30? The vast majority of their titles haven't sold out and probably won't for the forseeable future, so I doubt there are many people who buy them just because they're limited, in most cases the reason they're willing to pay the $30 is because TT is their only option for seeing the movie on blu ray and will be for the forseeable future. So why not have a contract that says something like "when a title sells out at TT, the rights to put it out on blu ray immediately go back to the studio, but if the studio isn't interested in doing that TT can immediately negotiate for a new contract to print another 3000?" I really doubt this would hurt their profits, and it might even help them by lessening the resentment a lot of people have over TT's responsibility for the inaccessibility of rare sellout titles like Fright Night and Christine (as for the people who resent TT because they don't like a movie enough to pay $30 but do like it enough to complain that it's not available for $15, those people are just cheapskates).

[klauswhereareyou]

Wasn't a big reason for the price of laserdiscs was that they were expensive to manufacture? As a movie lover who always wanted to own a laserdisc player and some of the cool discs, I just didn't have the money to invest. Glad I didn't since a few years later DVD came around with viturally the same content, but a special edition like say The Abyss that went for big bucks came out for 20 bucks on DVD.

[Mr Kite]

Getting back to talking about Rollerball, I wonder if TT will maybe start thinking about starting restoration on films such as this?

[mar3o]

Originally Posted by Cliff

If $15-$25 is the expected threshold, then why would anyone be surprised or angered at $20-$30 for a much better product? Would anyone expect to pay the same price for a Mercedes as they would pay for a Ford?

But no, I'm not saying most Blu-ray collectors were LaserDisc junkies, but rather that most LaserDisc junkies are absolutely Blu-ray collectors and there's a lot more in common with the formats and it's economics than not. It's becoming increasingly difficult to just go out to the closest store near you to buy the Blu-ray you want. In 1993 I used to drive anywhere between 45 and 90 minutes to one of only three stores that sold LDs in the Denver/Boulder area. There were no discounts. Getting something for $30 (like Speed when it first came out) was considered the rare and exceptional bargain. But people who went through that period of collecting LDs have a slightly different opinion of and appreciation for Blu-ray. For example... would you pay $60 or $70 for a movie-only edition of something? Because we all did in the Laser days. That's not to say we're all right and others are wrong, just that our collecting mentality comes from a different corner than many other people's. Our collecting habits weren't forged in the days of reel.com discounts and Wal-Mart dump bins. So when we see people complaining about paying $30 for something that is 4x the quality of what we were collecting 20 years ago (or even 5), it doesn't make sense.

I'll be honest, when I hear about people dumpster diving the Wal-Mart bin to find WHATEVER, just as long as it's $5, I get kind of sick and a little sad. I truly LOVE movies and so the idea of movies being given as much consideration as a fast food value menu item is depressing. Again, that's not to say I'm right, just that I have a different perspective, but as someone who collected under much different circumstances I very clearly see things reverting back. What Twilight Time is doing is kind of sifting out the various types of collectors and sort of taking us back to an age when the title of the disc was far more important than the price. It's may sound elitist (which I know some people love to sling back) but it's not... it's said out of a deep admiration and love of movies to the degree that I hate seeing them regarded as disposable and with a desire by some to increasingly devalue them. So when I see someone say that just because a movie is 20 years old it's not worth more than $10, that bothers me. It's the same sort of mentality that's caused an infestation of talkers and texters in movie theaters. Movies are no longer that thing you do... they've been demoted to that thing you're doing in the meantime. A distraction from what we're REALLY doing. They're a byproduct. They're ancillary now. A lot of people don't collect movies anymore... they collect $10 discs and hopefully it comes with a decent movie.


I will use as many or as few words as necessary to adequately cover all of my points.

I do agree with a lot of what you say here. Regarding Wal-mart dump bin diving, I hate that very much, and it makes me sad to see how movies are regarded now. I do get the mentality behind the shoppers who dig in there though - I do myself, hoping sometimes to find a few on my list that I haven't picked up yet, and sometimes I do grab one that I've been meaning to buy but haven't. So for me I don't just look for anything I can find, so much as "let's see if they have anything in here that's on my list of discs I'd like to own at some point". But yeah, I hate those bins - they contribute to people getting it in their head that all blu-rays are cheap and deserve to be in bargain bins.

And sorry for straying somewhat off-topic, but these TT releases make me sad as somebody who remembers seeing virtually every DVD title in Best Buy stores ages ago. How things have changed.

[klauswhereareyou]

Originally Posted by tele1962

Getting back to talking about Rollerball, I wonder if TT will maybe start thinking about starting restoration on films such as this?

Maybe if they grow and get more money. Seems like the strategy right now is to take what the studios give them. They've stated that they do have standards, but as far as restoration, I think that's currently not something Twilight Time is working on.

[Mr Kite]

Originally Posted by klauswhereareyou

Maybe if they grow and get more money. Seems like the strategy right now is to take what the studios give them. They've stated that they do have standards, but as far as restoration, I think that's currently not something Twilight Time is working on.

Maybe if the went down the route of fundraising for certain titles, maybe offsetting the higher prices they have if you donate to a restoration.

[klauswhereareyou]

Originally Posted by tele1962

Maybe if the went down the route of fundraising for certain titles, maybe offsetting the higher prices they have if you donate to a restoration.

I guess, but it'd have to be something that many people would want. I know TT wouldn't do it, but I'm guessing if Disney put something out there saying, "Hey donate some money so we can restore the Star Wars trilogy in it's original release state," they'd get lots of money.

I'll be honest, I would be up for donating for some kind of restoration project if it led to a new transfer and actual extras (not just recycled stuff from old discs or an isolated score) for a movie I really liked.

[Mr Kite]

Originally Posted by klauswhereareyou

I guess, but I'd guess it'd have to be something that many people would want. I know TT wouldn't do it, but I'm guessing if Disney put something out there saying, "Hey donate some money so we can restore the Star Wars trilogy in it's original release state," they'd get lots of money.

Check my sig. It can work.

Rollerball is in my top ten all time films, so I would love to see this one given the attention it IMO deserves.

[zbinks]

Originally Posted by tele1962

Getting back to talking about Rollerball, I wonder if TT will maybe start thinking about starting restoration on films such as this?

Even with a Kickstarter fund, I doubt they'd be able to fit any significant restoration costs into their limited edition business model without jacking up their already higher than average prices, expanding their model to allow for more than 3,000 copies to be sold and/or allowing their profit margin to take a hit.

[Musicguy]

Originally Posted by Hypnosifl

Yes, I don't care about TT charging $30 if that's the best way for them to make money, but I don't understand why they chose a contract that ties their hands by saying no title can have more than 3000 in its initial print run, and both they and the studios are forbidden from printing up a new set for three years..

There are interviews and articles out there explaining the 3,000 unit limit -

In a nut shell: TT put up the money out of their own pockets (that's like you and me putting up our own money and asking Sony for the rights to "Christine" for three years. Sony says we'll give you 3,000 units for 3 years at X price, you want more it will cost you more - that's all we can afford so we take it - not knowing if we will even sell all copies)

Will they revise the agreements in the future - possibly - and depending on the title (no one knows for sure which titles are going to sell out over the three year period)

[Hypnosifl]

Originally Posted by Musicguy

In a nut shell: TT put up the money out of their own pockets (that's like you and me putting up our own money and asking Sony for the rights to "Christine" for three years. Sony says we'll give you 3,000 units for 3 years at X price, you want more it will cost you more - that's all we can afford so we take it - not knowing if we will even sell all copies)

Are you saying that Sony forced this agreement on them, though? Did they at least try to negotiate any different deal, like one where the contract only permits them to make 3000 but doesn't forbid them from requesting a new contract to make more if they sell out in less than 3 years, but Sony rejected any such alternatives? Plus they also have a contract with 20th Century Fox, was Fox similarly insistent on exactly the same deal? And doesn't the current contract actually forbid Sony or Fox to print up their own blu ray of a movie in less than 3 years if the TT blu rays sell out? I thought that was why people were hopeful there might be a new non-TT version of movies like Journey to the Center of the Earth or Fright Night once the three years was up. If the contract does limit Sony/Fox this way, it seems hard to believe that this would be at their own insistence.

[Cliff]

Originally Posted by Hypnosifl

Are you saying that Sony forced this agreement on them, though? Did they at least try to negotiate any different deal, like one where the contract only permits them to make 3000 but doesn't forbid them from requesting a new contract to make more if they sell out in less than 3 years, but Sony rejected any such alternatives? Plus they also have a contract with 20th Century Fox, was Fox similarly insistent on exactly the same deal? And doesn't the current contract actually forbid Sony or Fox to print up their own blu ray of a movie in less than 3 years if the TT blu rays sell out? I thought that was why people were hopeful there might be a new non-TT version of movies like Journey to the Center of the Earth or Fright Night once the three years was up. If the contract does limit Sony/Fox this way, it seems hard to believe that this would be at their own insistence.

No, but like any agreement there are provisions to benefit and protect BOTH sides. TT approaches the studio with a desire to licence some of their titles. The studio gives them a list of titles that they are willing to licence out (mostly because the studio has no interest or plans to release it themselves in-house). Twilight Time has to decide which titles are going to be interesting enough to warrant consideration from consumers (but only from this list of castoffs- think of these movies like the Island of Misfit Toys. Twilight Time is never going to get Fox to licence out Die Hard). That's why you see TT going for big, known titles (as big as they can get) as well as smaller cult films they know have a following. But Twilight Time has to pony up all the dough for the licensing and manufacturing of the 3000 titles upfront without any guarantee they'll ever sell that amount. Now of course TT is going to make sure they have an exclusive window to sell their version when dealing with the studios. It would be suicide for them financially to spend all this money upfront to acquire a title only to see the studio or another licensee release a competing version. It's the same as a TV station paying to air a show or movie... They're paying for the exclusive rights to show something in a certain region for a limited amount of time. And during that time no other competing station is going to be able to air that same show or film. And for those who stupidly think this is a monopoly... what do you think almost EVERY Blu-ray release is? If you want to buy Tron Legacy... you HAVE to buy it from Disney and Disney sets that suggested retail price. It's been almost 3 years and the suggested retail price of Tron Legacy 3D hasn't dropped at all. It certainly hasn't dropped to the level that the average consumer would consider "acceptable." Again, that's not apples to apples because Tron's wide availability means that there are a great many copies on the secondary market, thus driving the price down on used copies, something the popular Twilight Time don't have (you know... all three of them). So once more, for all the complaints of "limiting availability" I'm left realizing that, again, the complaints are REALLY about pricing.

And why would Twilight Time, after selling through their contracted allotment of a title want to roll the dice again and renegotiate the deal, potentially risking NOT selling out their second pressing?

All one has to do is realize that deals like the ones Twilight Time conducts with the studios are not uncommon at all. Just because it's not how many of you would do business doesn't mean it's lazy or greedy or stupid or anti-consumer. Twilight Time is able to secure a product to sell... a product the copyright holder has no intention of selling. And Twilight Time is selling it for one reason: because they think people actually want it. They're not releasing this stuff just to release it. They hope consumers actually want these and kind of feel like they're actually doing a good thing by getting some of these neglected films out there to buy, but they have to do it in a manner that is financially responsible for them as a company. You guys can try and run circles around and poke holes through their business model, but thems the facts. Treating them like lepers with some calling them the worst label out there is pretty ignorant of what they're actually trying to accomplish.

[mar3o]

Originally Posted by Cliff

No, but like any agreement there are provisions to benefit and protect BOTH sides. TT approaches the studio with a desire to licence some of their titles. The studio gives them a list of titles that they are willing to licence out (mostly because the studio has no interest or plans to release it themselves in-house). Twilight Time has to decide which titles are going to be interesting enough to warrant consideration from consumers (but only from this list of castoffs- think of these movies like the Island of Misfit Toys. Twilight Time is never going to get Fox to licence out Die Hard). That's why you see TT going for big, known titles (as big as they can get) as well as smaller cult films they know have a following. But Twilight Time has to pony up all the dough for the licensing and manufacturing of the 3000 titles upfront without any guarantee they'll ever sell that amount. Now of course TT is going to make sure they have an exclusive window to sell their version when dealing with the studios. It would be suicide for them financially to spend all this money upfront to acquire a title only to see the studio or another licensee release a competing version. It's the same as a TV station paying to air a show or movie... They're paying for the exclusive rights to show something in a certain region for a limited amount of time. And during that time no other competing station is going to be able to air that same show or film. And for those who stupidly think this is a monopoly... what do you think almost EVERY Blu-ray release is? If you want to buy Tron Legacy... you HAVE to buy it from Disney and Disney sets that suggested retail price. It's been almost 3 years and the suggested retail price of Tron Legacy 3D hasn't dropped at all. It certainly hasn't dropped to the level that the average consumer would consider "acceptable." Again, that's not apples to apples because Tron's wide availability means that there are a great many copies on the secondary market, thus driving the price down on used copies, something the popular Twilight Time don't have (you know... all three of them). So once more, for all the complaints of "limiting availability" I'm left realizing that, again, the complaints are REALLY about pricing.

And why would Twilight Time, after selling through their contracted allotment of a title want to roll the dice again and renegotiate the deal, potentially risking NOT selling out their second pressing?

All one has to do is realize that deals like the ones Twilight Time conducts with the studios are not uncommon at all. Just because it's not how many of you would do business doesn't mean it's lazy or greedy or stupid or anti-consumer. Twilight Time is able to secure a product to sell... a product the copyright holder has no intention of selling. And Twilight Time is selling it for one reason: because they think people actually want it. They're not releasing this stuff just to release it. They hope consumers actually want these and kind of feel like they're actually doing a good thing by getting some of these neglected films out there to buy, but they have to do it in a manner that is financially responsible for them as a company. You guys can try and run circles around and poke holes through their business model, but thems the facts. Treating them like lepers with some calling them the worst label out there is pretty ignorant of what they're actually trying to accomplish.

But all of this points back to one thing - if the studios themselves that own the films cared enough about them to release them on blu-ray as they did on DVD, we wouldn't need Twilight Time. I can understand TT protecting themselves, but these films shouldn't be locked away in major studios' vaults anyways. The studios continue to complain about piracy, but as I see it, there are tons of films that people would like to buy but can't due to either region restrictions or simply because the studios have no intention of releasing them at all. There's nothing worse as a film fan seeing these titles get released multiple times on DVD, like Silent Running as an example, yet the studio has remastered it but has no intention of actually releasing it on blu-ray. I bought that film 2 years ago from Studio Canal, but I have yet to see that film get a release in the states.

Meanwhile, lots of those films are available "out there" if you know where to look, either as HD rips from other region discs, or as HDTV captures. It's hard to buy blu-rays when they don't care enough about their own films to even release them on the format, or stores refuse to sell them.