The Hobbit: The Desolation Of Smaug (Extended + Bookend Editions)

[Buzz201]

Originally Posted by FastAndFluid

Ultimately what's really depressing about this though isn't the dreadful films that come out the other end, but the "emperor's new clothes" mentality of the fan boi's even when all the evidence is there (go read Jackson's "official" biography - even with Jackson having to approve every word there's a lot of "dirt" in there about the reality of how he works). Even poor old Viggo, who's one of the most honest, discrete and integrity-filled people I've met in my whole life gets cries of "He's just a bitter has-been actor" when he even hints that things were less than 100% perfect on the first few movies, or that he was disappointed with the theatrical cut of "The Two Towers" given what had been filmed.

I'm with you there, I enjoy the Lord of the Rings films and the first Hobbit film (I've been waiting for the extended cut of the second) and they're great technological achievements, but I can't be the only person that fails to see them as "the greatest films ever". By all means they're enjoyable blockbusters, but the level of obsession from some of the fans is mental...

[FastAndFluid]

Originally Posted by Buzz201

Does it change the film in any way? No.

The director being a dick DOES change the film. The classic example I witnessed was the "now you see them, now you don't, now you see them again, now you don't barrels" when Faramir "interviews" Frodo and Sam. The scenes with the barrels in were filmed originally and then a whole load of reshoots were needed - and there were no barrels. The poor continuity girl pointed this out. Jackson's response: "Do I look like I give a ****?" End result a scene that pisses me off every time I see it. There are countless examples of this throughout the movie, the most obvious one perhaps being Pippin, hands tied, crawling away to escape the orcs. then a horse appears - his hands are tied behind his back. The horse rears up. Miraculously Pippin's hands are untied and he shakes them in the air. Horse drops down and oh, look Pippins hands are tied up again.

And all because the director was a dick when the continuity girl tried to do her job.

[Buzz201]

Originally Posted by FastAndFluid

The director being a dick DOES change the film. The classic example I witnessed was the "now you see them, now you don't, now you see them again, now you don't barrels" when Faramir "interviews" Frodo and Sam. The scenes with the barrels in were filmed originally and then a whole load of reshoots were needed - and there were no barrels. The poor continuity girl pointed this out. Jackson's response: "Do I look like I give a ****?" End result a scene that pisses me off every time I see it. There are countless examples of this throughout the movie, the most obvious one perhaps being Pippin, hands tied, crawling away to escape the orcs. then a horse appears - his hands are tied behind his back. The horse rears up. Miraculously Pippin's hands are untied and he shakes them in the air. Horse drops down and oh, look Pippins hands are tied up again.

And all because the director was a dick when the continuity girl tried to do her job.

My point was if the director just generally treats his staff like shit, it probably won't come across on the film. If it does, then it becomes problematic.

And if you hadn't mentioned it, I probably wouldn't have noticed...

[levcore]

To be honest none of this behind the scenes talk actually pertains to the blu ray release in this thread. Perhaps it would be better if people were to take it to PM's.

[Myshkin]

Originally Posted by FastAndFluid

The director being a dick DOES change the film. The classic example I witnessed was the "now you see them, now you don't, now you see them again, now you don't barrels" when Faramir "interviews" Frodo and Sam. The scenes with the barrels in were filmed originally and then a whole load of reshoots were needed - and there were no barrels. The poor continuity girl pointed this out. Jackson's response: "Do I look like I give a ****?" End result a scene that pisses me off every time I see it. There are countless examples of this throughout the movie, the most obvious one perhaps being Pippin, hands tied, crawling away to escape the orcs. then a horse appears - his hands are tied behind his back. The horse rears up. Miraculously Pippin's hands are untied and he shakes them in the air. Horse drops down and oh, look Pippins hands are tied up again.

And all because the director was a dick when the continuity girl tried to do her job.

Talk about making mountains out of molehills.

[Monkeyspoons Revenge]

Originally Posted by Myshkin

Talk about making mountains out of molehills.

Exactly. Many films have continuity errors. Normally they are so minor that people don't notice. In fact there are programmes made to highlight these errors and when you see them you go I don't remember seeing that. If I was a director and someone was going on about minor continuity errors i would say "who cares" too.

Fastandfluid reminds me of those people who claim to be star wars fans but hate George Lucas. You can't have one without the other.

[FastAndFluid]

Originally Posted by Monkeyspoons Revenge

Fastandfluid reminds me of those people who claim to be star wars fans but hate George Lucas. You can't have one without the other.

I'm with Mark Kermode on Star Wars and certainly don't claim to be a Star Wars fan at all. I can't stand even the originals (Episodes 1,2 and 3 were execrable) which I thought were juvenile trash that had less "plot" than even the average episode of Star Trek (original series) or Doctor Who even when I saw them on initial release in my late teens. And I think George Lucas can't write a decent line of dialog to save his life!

[FastAndFluid]

Originally Posted by Myshkin

Talk about making mountains out of molehills.

What you mean like taking a slim children's "bedtime reading" book and turning it into THREE 3 hour long movies?

And then issuing EXTENDED versions of them?

Yeah, I thought you'd have LOVED mountains out of molehills!

[Myshkin]

Just a tad misrepresentative there. The Hobbit takes place in a universe of which many books were written. Middle Earth is detailed and the stories connect left, right and centre. THREE films were (are being) made of this world incorporating more than is just in the book of The Hobbit and connecting it to the LOTR trilogy aswell. Personally I love the time taken (in book and film) to show these creations, even if it doesn't drive the plot forward very much. Seeing something creative can have its own merits. To write it off as a "bedtime story" ignores far too much. I'd say Middle Earth is already a mountain and there isn't enough time, even in six lengthy films to explore it.

[Buzz201]

Originally Posted by Myshkin

Just a tad misrepresentative there. The Hobbit takes place in a universe of which many books were written. Middle Earth is detailed and the stories connect left, right and centre. THREE films were (are being) made of this world incorporating more than is just in the book of The Hobbit and connecting it to the LOTR trilogy aswell. Personally I love the time taken (in book and film) to show these creations, even if it doesn't drive the plot forward very much. Seeing something creative can have its own merits. To write it off as a "bedtime story" ignores far too much. I'd say Middle Earth is already a mountain and there isn't enough time, even in six lengthy films to explore it.

Whether the world is big enough to support more than 6 films, I can't comment on, as I haven't read the books.

But something about the pacing of The Hobbit is off. From what I heard, Guillermo del Toro planned two films, he would have split the two at (or towards) the end of the first film, which implies they took GdT's script and padded out the second half of it, which is maybe not the best way to have done it...

If I thought it had been done for creative reasons, I'd have been fine with it, but it just comes across as being done purely for monetary reasons...

[Molly636]

Originally Posted by FastAndFluid

The director being a dick DOES change the film. The classic example I witnessed was the "now you see them, now you don't, now you see them again, now you don't barrels" when Faramir "interviews" Frodo and Sam. The scenes with the barrels in were filmed originally and then a whole load of reshoots were needed - and there were no barrels. The poor continuity girl pointed this out. Jackson's response: "Do I look like I give a ****?" End result a scene that pisses me off every time I see it. There are countless examples of this throughout the movie, the most obvious one perhaps being Pippin, hands tied, crawling away to escape the orcs. then a horse appears - his hands are tied behind his back. The horse rears up. Miraculously Pippin's hands are untied and he shakes them in the air. Horse drops down and oh, look Pippins hands are tied up again.

And all because the director was a dick when the continuity girl tried to do her job.

That's one thing that annoys me everytime I see it, Pippin and his hands untied one minute and tied the next.. I don't know how anyone can't notice it, its that noticeable!!

I must admit, I haven't noticed the barrels missing before, but I probably will now... lol!!

I have read about problems on set, mostly by the Bosey? guy that did the documentaries on all 3 films that were on the extended edition.. I find it quite fascinating, cause the way they paint in on the official documentaries on the EE everything was perfect and everyone got on.. so I think its good to see and hear about all the drama that went on!

[Groge511]

Zavvi Exclusive: Hobbit DoS EE with Erebor Key alongside the LotR trilogy
http://m.zavvi.com/blu-ray/the-lord-...affil=thgemail

[Thane]

What's the point of putting the theatrical trilogy in there?

[Groge511]

Originally Posted by Thane

What's the point of putting the theatrical trilogy in there?

No idea. Must be to persuade people to buy it. I think the Hobbit Key thing is non-exclusive as Amazon have a listing for it and so maybe its "exclusive" because it comes with LotR trilogy

[Rixx]

Originally Posted by Groge511

No idea. Must be to persuade people to buy it. I think the Hobbit Key thing is non-exclusive as Amazon have a listing for it and so maybe its "exclusive" because it comes with LotR trilogy

Amazon have removed the pre-order, looks like that was an error. Amazon have done the same thing with a few Zavvi and HMV exclusive steelbooks recently.

[FastAndFluid]

Originally Posted by Buzz201

If I thought it had been done for creative reasons, I'd have been fine with it, but it just comes across as being done purely for monetary reasons...

It was. And ironically this time it wasn't the studio seeing a chance to grab more money (I still think it's hilarious that the "official" story of Jackson not quite understanding what Bob Shaye was saying when he suggested three movies and not two for Lord of the Rings is built on the lie that Shaye said "Why are we making three movies and not two?" when his actual words were "Why are we charging 12 dollars when we could be charging 18 dollars?" which makes Jackson's inability to grasp what was being offered much clearer, albeit at the expense of showing New Line in a less than flattering light)

Jackson's career has shown a constant inability to deliver movies on budget or on time. It's why "Halo" was abandoned even after so much money had been spent - Universal had learnt their lesson from 2005's "King Kong" and could see the same pattern was clearly emerging.

Warner Brothers too knew what Jackson was like. They'd paid for all three LOTR movies upfront to be delivered together. When Fellowship was in serious trouble they'd had to put in a load of extra money to get ILM guys over to New Zealand to work with Weta to get the work finished. They shipped Barrie Osborne over to control Jackson and try and get what was looking like a huge disaster back on track (officially Osborne was added as a producer, but he also ended up acting as director on a lot of material because Jackson just wasn't getting the material shot in time, this was as well as Fran Walsh directing a lot of scenes - there's a very telling interview with Brad Dourif at RingCon that I published a transcript of where Dourif says he never really saw Jackson - all his scenes were directed by Fran).

Miramax had walked away from LOTR after spending millions on pre-production only to find six weeks before shooting was due to start that Jackson's film report (sent every few weeks from New Zealand to show progress) showed he still hadn't made even the most basic decisions ("Here are some designs for the orcs. We haven't decided which ones we're going to use yet") as he shows off about 30 very different designs. Lots of money being spent on lots of different designs but no decisions being made.

It was clear that despite all the hype about "three films being shot together" (and contractually agreed with Jackson) there were no releasable films for The Two Towers and Return of the King despite all the additional budget stumped up over and above what had been contractually agreed. If the first film had failed at the box office we wouldn't have got the second and third films because they weren't anywhere near a state where they could be released. Fortunately the first film made so much money with people going to see it multiple times they were able to justify the cost of months of what were publicly proclaimed as "reshoots" for the second film and again for the third film, but the budgets for those "reshoots" were more than most blockbusters get from scratch.

This is why the relationship between Bob Shaye and Jackson deteriorated so much that Shaye started publicly slagging off Jackson as the third film was finally released, saying New Line would never work with Jackson again. Shaye rightly felt Jackson had completely reneged on the contract he'd signed and screwed him and New Line, and continued to screw him right up to the third movie finally being ready to be released. To add insult to injury Jackson was even using the money and time that was supposed to be spent on finishing the LOTR films on his personal projects - like shooting the King Kong "extras" for the original Universal movie for "King Kong" for the anniversary release.

"The Hobbit" was just more of the same. Despite having 18 months and a massively increased budget, the time came for all the actors to go home and they still hadn't even started shooting the supposed climax for the second film - the battle of the five armies. Jackson went to Warner Brothers and tried to use the excuse that having reviewed the material he realised he had three films and needed even more time and money to deliver an extra movie. Warner Brothers had learnt their lesson from LOTR and refused to pay for a third film, insisting that Jackson deliver the two movies that had been contractually agreed.

But Jackson is clever. He has an amiable "I'm one of you" relationship with the fans and comes across as very personable. He used his relationships with the media and the fan sites to maximum effect, effectively telling fans that the suits were screwing him and not allowing him to make the three movies he now realised were needed to fulfill his vision. He effectively got "the fans" to start a huge campaign where he painted the movie company as the bad guys not letting him deliver the movies he knew the fans wanted.

The end-result was entirely predictable despite Warners initial insistence they were not going to release three films. With such a massive campaign built around misinformation and clearly no releasable second film Warners had to cave in - at tremendous cost. All the merchandising rights that had been agreed for two years had to be renegotiated with all the different suppliers for three years. Jackson got a ton more money, actors were recalled for extensive "reshoots" last Summer and no doubt this Summer too, and the third film will be released this Christmas. You almost have to admire Jackson for getting away with it again.

What I found hilarious was that the original announcement that Warner Brothers had caved in to Jackson's blackmailing said the third movie would be released in the Summer after the second movie.

I said at the time there was NO WAY the movie would be ready for Summer - Jackson has never yet delivered a movie on time and anybody who had even the smallest experience of working with him knew that there was no way he would deliver a third film in six months. If he couldn't deliver the original two after 18 months and such a large budget, how was an extra six months going to suddenly deliver a third? It will be very interesting to see in December what he has managed to deliver in the extra six months he's been given but not interesting enough for me to want to see for myself, having found the first two films so long and self-indulgent.

[Buddy Ackerman]

Originally Posted by Buzz201

If I thought it had been done for creative reasons, I'd have been fine with it, but it just comes across as being done purely for monetary reasons...

I disagree. If it was pure monetary reasons then why not do it as a trilogy in the first place?

I honestly believe that Jackson just had too much footage and realised when he started a rough cut that it couldn't be done. Looking at where he was due to end the first film - with Bard on the riverbank - it's impossible to see how that could have fitted into one film without it being even more choppy - no room to breath, just skipping from incident to incident and getting to know none of the characters. And, for me, the existing pacing problems come out of this - trying to fix two films into three with satisfactory beginnings, middles and endings for each one. Which is why DoS seems to flow better than AUJ - Jackson only had a few months to reconfigure the first one, he had over a year to shape the second.

I'm not saying that Warners - and probably Jackson - weren't happy with the extra money. But if it was just for that reason then it would have been easier for everyone involved to decide that at the start.

Still, come on - two years later and the internet is still having the same debates and making the same points ("The Hobbit is a small book!" is such a lazy argument and shows a lack of understanding of writing styles and adaptations)? Can we not all at least hold off until the trilogy is complete before deciding if it worked or not? It's only two months to go.

[BarnDoor]

One question F&F - if Jackson is so obsessed with making money, as you claim, then why didn't he just direct these Hobbit films in the first place?

And I don't at all remember any kind of PJ-led 'campaign' to get a third movie - it was first rumoured officially at SDCC 2012 when Jackson mentioned he was talking to WB about it, and within a week the move to a trilogy was announced. But it's obvious the deal would have been concluded even before SDCC:

https://www.facebook.com/notes/peter...51114596546558

And btw there weren't any proper reshoots this summer. Some motion capture stuff I expect, but nothing substantial appears to have been done.

[Monkeyspoons Revenge]

Originally Posted by FastAndFluid

It was. And ironically this time it wasn't the studio seeing a chance to grab more money (I still think it's hilarious that the "official" story of Jackson not quite understanding what Bob Shaye was saying when he suggested three movies and not two for Lord of the Rings is built on the lie that Shaye said "Why are we making three movies and not two?" when his actual words were "Why are we charging 12 dollars when we could be charging 18 dollars?" which makes Jackson's inability to grasp what was being offered much clearer, albeit at the expense of showing New Line in a less than flattering light)

Jackson's career has shown a constant inability to deliver movies on budget or on time. It's why "Halo" was abandoned even after so much money had been spent - Universal had learnt their lesson from 2005's "King Kong" and could see the same pattern was clearly emerging.

Warner Brothers too knew what Jackson was like. They'd paid for all three LOTR movies upfront to be delivered together. When Fellowship was in serious trouble they'd had to put in a load of extra money to get ILM guys over to New Zealand to work with Weta to get the work finished. They shipped Barrie Osborne over to control Jackson and try and get what was looking like a huge disaster back on track (officially Osborne was added as a producer, but he also ended up acting as director on a lot of material because Jackson just wasn't getting the material shot in time, this was as well as Fran Walsh directing a lot of scenes - there's a very telling interview with Brad Dourif at RingCon that I published a transcript of where Dourif says he never really saw Jackson - all his scenes were directed by Fran).

Miramax had walked away from LOTR after spending millions on pre-production only to find six weeks before shooting was due to start that Jackson's film report (sent every few weeks from New Zealand to show progress) showed he still hadn't made even the most basic decisions ("Here are some designs for the orcs. We haven't decided which ones we're going to use yet") as he shows off about 30 very different designs. Lots of money being spent on lots of different designs but no decisions being made.

It was clear that despite all the hype about "three films being shot together" (and contractually agreed with Jackson) there were no releasable films for The Two Towers and Return of the King despite all the additional budget stumped up over and above what had been contractually agreed. If the first film had failed at the box office we wouldn't have got the second and third films because they weren't anywhere near a state where they could be released. Fortunately the first film made so much money with people going to see it multiple times they were able to justify the cost of months of what were publicly proclaimed as "reshoots" for the second film and again for the third film, but the budgets for those "reshoots" were more than most blockbusters get from scratch.

This is why the relationship between Bob Shaye and Jackson deteriorated so much that Shaye started publicly slagging off Jackson as the third film was finally released, saying New Line would never work with Jackson again. Shaye rightly felt Jackson had completely reneged on the contract he'd signed and screwed him and New Line, and continued to screw him right up to the third movie finally being ready to be released. To add insult to injury Jackson was even using the money and time that was supposed to be spent on finishing the LOTR films on his personal projects - like shooting the King Kong "extras" for the original Universal movie for "King Kong" for the anniversary release.

"The Hobbit" was just more of the same. Despite having 18 months and a massively increased budget, the time came for all the actors to go home and they still hadn't even started shooting the supposed climax for the second film - the battle of the five armies. Jackson went to Warner Brothers and tried to use the excuse that having reviewed the material he realised he had three films and needed even more time and money to deliver an extra movie. Warner Brothers had learnt their lesson from LOTR and refused to pay for a third film, insisting that Jackson deliver the two movies that had been contractually agreed.

But Jackson is clever. He has an amiable "I'm one of you" relationship with the fans and comes across as very personable. He used his relationships with the media and the fan sites to maximum effect, effectively telling fans that the suits were screwing him and not allowing him to make the three movies he now realised were needed to fulfill his vision. He effectively got "the fans" to start a huge campaign where he painted the movie company as the bad guys not letting him deliver the movies he knew the fans wanted.

The end-result was entirely predictable despite Warners initial insistence they were not going to release three films. With such a massive campaign built around misinformation and clearly no releasable second film Warners had to cave in - at tremendous cost. All the merchandising rights that had been agreed for two years had to be renegotiated with all the different suppliers for three years. Jackson got a ton more money, actors were recalled for extensive "reshoots" last Summer and no doubt this Summer too, and the third film will be released this Christmas. You almost have to admire Jackson for getting away with it again.

What I found hilarious was that the original announcement that Warner Brothers had caved in to Jackson's blackmailing said the third movie would be released in the Summer after the second movie.

I said at the time there was NO WAY the movie would be ready for Summer - Jackson has never yet delivered a movie on time and anybody who had even the smallest experience of working with him knew that there was no way he would deliver a third film in six months. If he couldn't deliver the original two after 18 months and such a large budget, how was an extra six months going to suddenly deliver a third? It will be very interesting to see in December what he has managed to deliver in the extra six months he's been given but not interesting enough for me to want to see for myself, having found the first two films so long and self-indulgent.

Oh give it a rest. None of us care about your anti Peter Jackson campaign. We are here because we like and want to discuss the Hobbit films. What you are doing is considered to be trolling. If you want to rant over how much you hate Peter jackson then do it elsewhere. The blu ray discussion board is NOT the place to do it. It comes across that you want us to hate PJ as much as you do when in fact any ill feelings are more directed at you than him.

[Buddy Ackerman]

Originally Posted by BarnDoor

One question F&F - if Jackson is so obsessed with making money, as you claim, then why didn't he just direct these Hobbit films in the first place?

And I don't at all remember any kind of PJ-led 'campaign' to get a third movie - it was first rumoured officially at SDCC 2012 when Jackson mentioned he was talking to WB about it, and within a week the move to a trilogy was announced. But it's obvious the deal would have been concluded even before SDCC:

It was first thought of during the principal filming when they got the rough cut for the first film sorted - that's why in the EE appendices the final thing they film is the 'new' ending for AUJ on the Carrock. It's my understanding that this was done as a back-up though, and the trilogy split wasn't decided for definite until the summer, which is why the promotional stuff that came at that point (such as the original scroll artwork and trailers) still had DoS material in them. If they'd have known for certain earlier they'd have played it safe. I believe the contract negotiations with actors was still going on during SDCC and the announcement was the first moment they could announce it - so literally as soon as it was confirmed.