The Italian Job 4K (1969) 55th Anniversary (UK)

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by nicwood

I've made a rudimentary screenshot comparison of the opening scene as the issues with the KL are quite prominent there already: https://slow.pics/c/tkSuT6lm

Both 4K caps are from the HDR layer only.

Bingo. And there you can plainly see how much betterer the compression is too on the Paramount. It's not perfick, no no no, and nor is the Kino absolutely terrible, but the grain in the sky shot is resolved so much betterer on the Paramount as it's not some set and forget encode like the Kino. Look at the letterbox bars too, so many Kinos have that constant layer of digital crud at the letterbox boundary because the encoder doesn't know what to do with it (seriously, look at most of those with that stupidly large autopilot 18 Mb/s DV layer and you'll see the exact same effect on the base layer). But that boundary is fine on the Paramount.

[andreasy969]

Thanks for the caps and I do have a follow up question re. the caps, but before I come to that I'm afraid I don't see the better compression on the Paramount, not in general at any rate (prime examples being #5 and #8 IIRC), so that appears to be a total wash, and I also prefer the colours of the Kino and I'm also still not sure the Paramount is right. As Geoff stated something in between might be perfect. The red of the car in particular does't look right to me on some of the caps with the Paramount. I'll stick with the Kino.

Now I have a question. I noticed only by accident that my regular browser on the phone (Naked Browser which AFAIK basically uses the Chrome engine under the hood) obviously tonemaps these not-tonemapped caps. While Firefox (both on the phone and on the PC) does not and washed out it is (so I am also rather cautious re. the colours anyway). I don't use Chrome (refuse to if you want) and don't even have it installed, but I have Edge installed (as in it exists) on the PC and checked with Edge and Edge tonemaps them as well and what I get there basically matches what I get with the Chrome engine on the phone (no surprise really since, for all I know, Edge is also just Chrome).

Now the actual question: Do you people get washed out or colourful caps with nicwood's caps? I always only saw washed out until I happened to see them first on the phone with Naked Browser today (instead of the usual Firefox on the PC).

tl/dr: Interesting.

[nicwood]

Originally Posted by andreasy969

Thanks for the caps and I do have a follow up question re. the caps, but before I come to that I'm afraid I don't see the better compression on the Paramount, not in general at any rate (prime examples being #5 and #8 IIRC), so that appears to be a total wash, and I also prefer the colours of the Kino and I'm also still not sure the Paramount is right. As Geoff stated something in between might be perfect. The red of the car in particular does't look right to me on some of the caps with the Paramount. I'll stick with the Kino.

Now I have a question. I noticed only by accident that my regular browser on the phone (Naked Browser which AFAIK basically uses the Chrome engine under the hood) obviously tonemaps these not-tonemapped caps. While Firefox (both on the phone and on the PC) does not and washed out it is (so I am also rather cautious re. the colours anyway). I don't use Chrome (refuse to if you want) and don't even have it installed, but I have Edge installed (as in it exists) on the PC and checked with Edge and Edge tonemaps them as well and what I get there basically matches what I get with the Chrome engine on the phone (no surprise really since, for all I know, Edge is also just Chrome).

Now the actual question: Do you people get washed out or colourful caps with nicwood's caps? I always only saw washed out until I happened to see them first on the phone with Naked Browser today (instead of the usual Firefox on the PC).

tl/dr: Interesting.

In case that’s of any help, I’m using Safari on Mac on iPhone and they’re all looking good. Firefox on both platforms too. Where I’m getting problems with my HDR caps though is IMGBB. They appear washed-out in both BBCode preview and on the website until I zoom in and / or download them. Slow.pics works great each time, hence me using them exclusively now. I’ve never used Chrome but can check Edge when I’m back at my computer.

[andreasy969]

Originally Posted by nicwood

In case that’s of any help, I’m using Safari on Mac on iPhone and they’re all looking good. Firefox on both platforms too. Where I’m getting problems with my HDR caps though is IMGBB. They appear washed-out in both BBCode preview and on the website until I zoom in and / or download them. Slow.pics works great each time, hence me using them exclusively now.

Thx. I get washed out with Firefox both on the Windows 10 PC and the Android phone. And I'm sure they are only not washed out when the viewer "adjusts" them. With Firefox it might be a setting, but I don't want to change anything - because I actually prefer to see washed out when the caps are washed out.

Deci might know what exactly is going on (and what settings might change it) and he maybe even said so somewhere already.

[andreasy969]

Originally Posted by nicwood

In case that’s of any help, I’m using Safari on Mac on iPhone and they’re all looking good. Firefox on both platforms too. Where I’m getting problems with my HDR caps though is IMGBB. They appear washed-out in both BBCode preview and on the website until I zoom in and / or download them. Slow.pics works great each time, hence me using them exclusively now. I’ve never used Chrome but can check Edge when I’m back at my computer.

Here's on the phone again and I just took two phone screenshots with one of your Kino caps in Naked Browser (I'm sure Chrome would give me the same) and with the very same cap saved on the phone and then viewed via the gallery. Chrome/Chromium is changing how the image is displayed.



The second one is what I get on the PC (except for Edge/Chromium) and what your caps actually look like on a regular monitor.

Mind you that I do realize that both might still look the same to you.

[tama]

I'm sorry. I'm not seeing better compression on the Paramount. I came away thinking the opposite with some of those caps. DV not withstanding.

Also I know not the best way to judge especially since I don't own both releases but the colors don't look far and away from each other. Not enough to make me budge and I originally stated my thoughts about the Kino colors not being quite right when it was originally released.

Personally I'll just stay put on my kino.

[John Earls Umbrella]

I’ve got both and the Paramount wins for me. No contest. The Kino colours are horrible and it has this odd overall look to it that focuses attention away from the movie. Happy for those who like the Kino better but I’m just don’t see that at all. In fact I’d go further, it’s one of the crappiest 4Ks I’ve seen.

[Geoff D]

Andi: the caps look normal on my iPhone with just the regular safari browser thingy.

[andreasy969]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Andi: the caps look normal on my iPhone with just the regular safari browser thingy.

Thx. I do see a Chromium/Apple pattern.

[Peter_A]

I looked at the screenshots too, and to me, the encoding on the Paramount is clearly not superior. I do like the colors better on the Paramount, and on screenshots 1-3, the Paramount overall looks better to me. But on 4-8, I think the Kino looks to have better encoding.

Look at screenshot 4. The Paramount looks like a watercolor mess, as in some of their worst, laziest efforts. There is an abundance of fine grain on the Kino. I realize that they are not the exact same frame but are close enough that I doubt that's a factor.

Based on theses screenshots, I think that I'd stick with the Kino on this one, which is a shame, since I do like the colors better on the Paramount.

[HeavyHitter]

Eight caps are hard to judge by in this case between the two - nicwood, can you post more? But if the compression is about the same on both (all things considered) and yet Paramount has more natural looking color, it seems like the win to me.

[Brian81]

Looked at the 8 caps. Does the Kino look like it was forced into the wrong color space? Has the same look as Blue Underground titles like 'Two Evil Eyes'. Weird radioactive splotches of grass in #3 as an example. The cap with the driver looks really saturated. Kino compression has streaks of smearing. Too bad the Paramount doesn't have the original audio.

[andreasy969]

I also looked at the Kino again last weekend and I thought that it might come with the colour space error early on, because I see overly reddish faces in the beginning sometimes, but I also thought that I surely wouldn't want less saturated with many other scenes. So maybe the Kino is just partly wrong. Or not at all. I'd like to see some caps with the red Mini Cooper from later in the movie. And as I said before, the red car from the beginning also gives me orange vibes on some of the Paramount caps.

Here's not clearly seeing the typical lobster/teal push throughout with the Kino at any rate. And it usually is in your resp. my face. Iron Man, H20, Arrival you name it.

[nicwood]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

Eight caps are hard to judge by in this case between the two - nicwood, can you post more? But if the compression is about the same on both (all things considered) and yet Paramount has more natural looking color, it seems like the win to me.

15 new HDR caps below. I don't have the time to do another comparison but hopefully you'll get a good look nonetheless:

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[andreasy969]

@nicwood Thx. Too bad there isn't a red Mini Cooper cap.

[Show spoiler]And minus points for forcing me to use Edge. /jk but also not really kidding.

But there is an Italy flag:

[Show spoiler]

and I for one am still not sold on the colours of the Paramount, because an Italy flag is supposed to be green-white-red and not green-white-brownish/orange/notAsRedAsIdExpect. I still smell the other error or maybe none is proper. I.e. as Geoff said, something in between the two might be it.

[andreasy969]

I just took two matching caps from the Kino for the reds.



Nevermind the brightness (took mine at 100), but I vote the Paramount doesn't have proper reds.

I also took some more for both reds or for the Kino looking rather dull to me already and it'd be interesting to see the Paramount in comparison. So if anyone finds the time, the timestamps are there. The Kino might look a little too red/hot sometimes, but it's by no means as radioactive as we've seen on other occasions and what does the Paramount look like with the already rather dull ones? Mind you that I really don't want to be right or something, I just like to get to the bottom of things (and it bugs me when we don't) plus for people's consideration.



<-- for the red hair

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by andreasy969

I also looked at the Kino again last weekend and I thought that it might come with the colour space error early on, because I see overly reddish faces in the beginning sometimes, but I also thought that I surely wouldn't want less saturated with many other scenes. So maybe the Kino is just partly wrong. Or not at all. I'd like to see some caps with the red Mini Cooper from later in the movie. And as I said before, the red car from the beginning also gives me orange vibes on some of the Paramount caps.

Here's not clearly seeing the typical lobster/teal push throughout with the Kino at any rate. And it usually is in your resp. my face. Iron Man, H20, Arrival you name it.

Pretty sure that the Lambo at the beginning actually had an orange paint job. In any case, it shouldn't be the dayglo red/magenta that the Kino posits it as.

[andreasy969]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Pretty sure that the Lambo at the beginning actually had an orange paint job. In any case, it shouldn't be the dayglo red/magenta that the Kino posits it as.

I'd have to take a look at that car again, but I'll wait for Union Jack caps first now.

[nicwood]

Originally Posted by andreasy969

I'd have to take a look at that car again, but I'll wait for Union Jack caps first now.

I haven’t yet deleted my rip and will gladly make you a few Mini Cooper caps tomorrow. The time stamps you referred to are in the file names of your caps, right? In that case, I’ll attempt a comparison with your caps as having the exact time stamp makes the job much easier.

[andreasy969]

Originally Posted by nicwood

I haven’t yet deleted my rip and will gladly make you a few Mini Cooper caps tomorrow. The time stamps you referred to are in the file names of your caps, right? In that case, I’ll attempt a comparison with your caps as having the exact time stamp makes the job much easier.

Yes, the timestamps are in the filenames. You'll still have to pick the proper frame of course though. Often I picked the last before or the first after a cut, but not always. The last one with the flag would be great as well.