Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[Vilya]

My first DVD player is actually a laserdisc player, too, the Pioneer DVL-909. I bought it in 1998. For $1,000; that's $1,546 in 2018 dollars.

I still have it and it still works 20 years later. I only use it as a laserdisc player now, though, as my Oppo 203 handles DVD playback a bit better.

[CV19]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

If Dolby Vision is not a requirement then the Sony UBP-X800 was recently selling for about $160.00. Some have complained about problems with their X800. Mine has hung a couple of times but not after the last firmware update. I do not play many disc on it, used mostly for uh, umm, streaming .

Edit: Now back to $248.00

That's still a good price. I paid the best part of £400 for mine - admittedly it had only just come out I think, so they're always more expensive on their initial release. Sony UK still list it at £350, about the same price as the UHP-H1 model.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Vilya

My first DVD player is actually a laserdisc player, too, the Pioneer DVL-909. I bought it in 1998. For $1,000; that's $1,546 in 2018 dollars.

I still have it and it still works 20 years later. I only use it as a laserdisc player now, though, as my Oppo 203 handles DVD playback a bit better.

My first Pioneer LaserDisc order was for a model that contained a helium-neon laser (big box) and an outboard CX audio processor. I canceled the order because of rumors Pioneer was coming out with a model that had a solid state laser with built-in CX. About the time I ready to order that model heard rumors again that Pioneer was coming out with a model that could play LaserDisc, CD’s, and LaserDics with digital audio tracks.

Had waited long enough so in 1985 I purchased the Pioneer CLD-900 (a big, heavy box) for around $1100.00. Procured a Sony βeta Hi-Fi in that same time frame for about $1050.00

Here we are today with boxes that can do UHD video and 12 channels sound for $500 and less. In one perspective that seems like a bargain.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by CV19

That's still a good price. I paid the best part of £400 for mine - admittedly it had only just come out I think, so they're always more expensive on their initial release. Sony UK still list it at £350, about the same price as the UHP-H1 model.

I agree. It would be interesting to know how many were sold when they were $160.00. IMHO, that was a great bargain for that player.

My biggest cost to use ratio box was the Sony FMP-X10. At least we got to watch a little downloaded content on it and it would stream Netflix in UHD. I did manage to sell it for about ¼ of what I paid ($440.00) for it.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by Vilya

My first DVD player is actually a laserdisc player, too, the Pioneer DVL-909. I bought it in 1998. For $1,000; that's $1,546 in 2018 dollars.

I still have it and it still works 20 years later. I only use it as a laserdisc player now, though, as my Oppo 203 handles DVD playback a bit better.

My first DVD Player was a Toshiba, and I bought it up in the Bay Area, CA around 1998-99. There was a problem playing Copy Protected Discs, so I had to take it in to a Toshiba Service Shop to do a Firmware update. When I started to do DVD Back-ups, I noticed the Discs looked like Files on a HDD. So if I was Bit Streaming from the Toshiba to my TV, I should be able to Bit Stream from the HDD too. I experimented and it worked. What I needed was a Player with a Network Connection that would Play Media Files. I found the Go Video DVD Media Player, that could play both DVD's and Media Files on a Network.

Then I bought my first Blu-ray Player around 2008-09, Panasonic DMP-BD35. Needed a Media Player found the Buffalo LinkTheater. When I upgraded my Panasonic to the BMP-BD60, I was doing DVD and BD Back-ups since I took all that Junk off it was easier to just play the Discs. I didn't need the Buffalo Player. I was accessing Streaming Providers with the BD60, I liked it and upgraded to the Model I have now the BMP-BDT330. I started Streaming from my HDD and Local Server, and now from my Streaming Providers. So to me it's the Logical Next Step, Streaming from your Provider's Server. So you guys haven't answered my question, what's after the 4K Disc?

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Here we are today with boxes that can do UHD video and 12 channels sound for $500 and less. In one perspective that seems like a bargain.

I think tech products are an amazing bargain. They do so much now, more than what most of us would have ever imagined 20-30 years ago, and at a much lower price than what we paid for hi-fi vcrs, laserdisc players, and hernia inducing 40" CRT televisions. Even the movies themselves are a bargain now; the average laserdisc, in 1993, sold for $69.75 in today's dollars. Buying movies then was a real outlay of moolah.

It has never been a better time than right here, right now, to be a home theater enthusiast and movie collector!

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by alchav21

So you guys haven't answered my question, what's after the 4K Disc?

Armageddon and the apocalypse! Combined!

Probably 8K on some "to be determined" type of physical media. Possibly a larger diameter optical disc with more surface area to hold more data? It'll take some work to get 8K onto a 5" optical disc unless a breakthrough occurs in data storage. Consumer hard drives and servers are too expensive and most are too short-lived to make for a viable option. These drives would have to have huge storage capacities to hold very many 8K movies, even if these 8K files were ridiculously compressed.

8K would involve too much data, even highly compressed, for the vast majority of people to stream unless the internet infrastructure improves by an order of magnitude or more. 8K would be like trying to stream four 4K movies simultaneously.

I'll consult my Magic 8 Ball later; it predicts the future as well as nearly anyone else can.

[stonesfan129]

They probably won't come out with another format after 4K. A lot of movies don't really even have more resolution than that. And it's not like it would even be beneficial unless you have a movie theater in your home. Most likely everything will go in the direction of streaming and downloads like music has. I think they will keep selling physical media as long as it remains profitable, just don't think physical media will go above 4K.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by stonesfan129

They probably won't come out with another format after 4K. A lot of movies don't really even have more resolution than that. And it's not like it would even be beneficial unless you have a movie theater in your home. Most likely everything will go in the direction of streaming and downloads like music has. I think they will keep selling physical media as long as it remains profitable, just don't think physical media will go above 4K.

That sounds logical to me, and I think Oppo saw this too. 4K is the last Physical Media, because making Disc Players for new Formats is not Cost Effective. Streaming Apps in UHD TV's and Players sounds like a better idea.

[stonesfan129]

Originally Posted by alchav21

That sounds logical to me, and I think Oppo saw this too. 4K is the last Physical Media, because making Disc Players for new Formats is not Cost Effective. Streaming Apps in UHD TV's and Players sounds like a better idea.

I think you're misunderstanding what I said. I didn't say that they weren't going to keep making physical media. I just don't think physical media is going to extend beyond 4K. I doubt streaming ever would either. 4K is really reaching the limitations of most movies. A few companies are still making 4K UHD players. Oppo left the market because it couldn't sell its players. They priced themselves out of the market. Streaming is getting way more popular but sorry the quality just isn't the same as a disc.

[Vilya]

Oppo left the 4k disc player market because their parent company (BBK Electronics- a Chinese multi-national company) wanted them to focus on their core business: smartphones. Oppo has also stopped making headphones and headphone amplifiers for the same reason. The home video and audio section of Oppo accounted for very little of Oppo's overall income. Oppo is the 4th largest manufacturer of smartphones in the world.

At least three other companies are offering 4k players in the price range once occupied by Oppo: Cambridge, Panasonic, and Pioneer. There is always a market for high end components, even if just a niche one. These three companies would not be offering 4K players at these price levels if there was no market for them.

8K displays appear to be on the horizon; some say they will be in stores by 2020 with more consumer friendly pricing by 2023. There will be content of some sort for them at some point. The internet will not be robust enough to stream in 8K anytime soon for the vast majority of us. It would also annihilate data caps for the many of us that are shackled to them. That would suggest 8K content will be on physical media or offered as gigantic downloads. Otherwise, we would just have 8K upscales and that may be all there is at first.

8K displays offer 100 degree viewing angles compared to just 55 degrees with 4k displays. 8K supports up to 22.2 channels of audio. 8K supports frame rates up to 120 Hz progressive compared to 60 Hz for 4K- fast motion is handled much, much better. 8K displays will have 33 million pixels vs. 8.3 million for 4K. This many pixels, 33 million, makes them individually invisible even when just one inch from the screen. 8k comes even closer to matching the full capability of the human eye, more nuanced colors and more details in both bright and dark scenes. 8K resolution can benefit both content yet to be made and existing content. 35mm film can yield up to 6K worth of detail; 70mm can yield up to 12K, and IMAX up to 18K. 8K is also rumored to support 3D, with 4K stereoscopic resolution for each eye, without the need for special glasses.

http://www.cinematography.com/index.php?showtopic=72252

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by alchav21

That sounds logical to me, and I think Oppo saw this too. 4K is the last Physical Media, because making Disc Players for new Formats is not Cost Effective. Streaming Apps in UHD TV's and Players sounds like a better idea.

Making 4k disc players, at least, is most certainly cost effective. LG offers them as does Sony, Samsung, Panasonic, Pioneer (soon), Cambridge, Philips/Magnavox, and the Xbox One S. They are making them because there is a strong market for them.

4K disc player sales are up 150% this year while 4K disc sales are up 130%. Trust the sales data, not your misconceptions. At the end of the first quarter of 2018, 9 million American households owned a 4K disc player and that number is expected to keep growing. 35 million American households own a 4k TV.

Again, you need to remember that 35% of Americans do not have broadband internet. Streaming in 4K is impossible for them and even HD streaming is problematic.

[PCFan]

Originally Posted by stonesfan129

They probably won't come out with another format after 4K. A lot of movies don't really even have more resolution than that. And it's not like it would even be beneficial unless you have a movie theater in your home. Most likely everything will go in the direction of streaming and downloads like music has. I think they will keep selling physical media as long as it remains profitable, just don't think physical media will go above 4K.

Do music albums from the iTunes store have the same audio quality as the audio tracks in iTunes movies or is the audio CD quality?

[stonesfan129]

Originally Posted by PCFan

Do music albums from the iTunes store have the same audio quality as the audio tracks in iTunes movies or is the audio CD quality?

iTunes sells audio tracks that are 256kbps AAC. I believe their movies typically have 160kbps AAC 2.0 and a 384kbps AC3 5.1 track. Audio CDs are 1411kbps 44.1khz PCM. So no, not the same quality.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Netflix continues to look at ways to reduce streaming data rates. Several things I have streamed lately at 1080 has a data rate of just 3.85 mbps. They have openly stated they want viewers with mobile devices to be able to view their content and not use up too much data.

The entire game for streaming video is less data, not more. The Netflix ISP Speed Index for June here. Comcast, the leaded, has a speed (4.13 mbps) that is about half that of a DVD.

Any VUDU users here? If so, do you know why they removed their connection speed quality meter from their app?

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Making 4k disc players, at least, is most certainly cost effective. LG offers them as does Sony, Samsung, Panasonic, Pioneer (soon), Cambridge, Philips/Magnavox, and the Xbox One S. They are making them because there is a strong market for them.

Several vendors are providing hardware for a market that I believed would not exist, drives for PC's. It appears to be a real PIA to get the right combo of hardware and software together for playback but some are doing it. I'm going to pass on this one for a while . Still, I find it interesting that UHD BD drives (internal and external) are available.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Several vendors are providing hardware for a market that I believed would not exist, drives for PC's. It appears to be a real PIA to get the right combo of hardware and software together for playback but some are doing it. I'm going to pass on this one for a while . Still, I find it interesting that UHD BD drives (internal and external) are available.

Getting the necessary hardware and software to play 4K discs on a computer is apparently excessively difficult. It almost seems as if this difficulty is intentional, that they simply do not want people watching 4k discs on a computer at all.

This is speculation on my part, but perhaps they are concerned that the playback of 4k discs on a computer will hasten the eventual cracking of the DRM on these discs. Just a guess, but there must be some reason why they have made the playback of 4k discs on a computer such a chore.

On a different subject, I am also going to hazard a guess that you and Groot will be among the first on this thread to own an 8K display. I look forward to your assessments.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Getting the necessary hardware and software to play 4K discs on a computer is apparently excessively difficult. It almost seems as if this difficulty is intentional, that they simply do not want people watching 4k discs on a computer at all.

This is speculation on my part, but perhaps they are concerned that the playback of 4k discs on a computer will hasten the eventual cracking of the DRM on these discs. Just a guess, but there must be some reason why they have made the playback of 4k discs on a computer such a chore.

On a different subject, I am also going to hazard a guess that you and Groot will be among the first on this thread to own an 8K display. I look forward to your assessments.

Depends what you mean by display. I can certainly see myself buying 8k VR headsets in the future.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Netflix continues to look at ways to reduce streaming data rates. Several things I have streamed lately at 1080 has a data rate of just 3.85 mbps. They have openly stated they want viewers with mobile devices to be able to view their content and not use up too much data.

The entire game for streaming video is less data, not more. The Netflix ISP Speed Index for June here. Comcast, the leaded, has a speed (4.13 mbps) that is about half that of a DVD.

Any VUDU users here? If so, do you know why they removed their connection speed quality meter from their app?

Those will be advanced codecs that Netflix use though, no? It won’t be long before 4K uses only half the bit rate it does now. Don’t get me wrong, I’m Die hard disc, but Netflix has impressed me with the picture it produces from such low bit rates.

Also, now that Netflix will probably charge the max subscription for 4K HDR, they will need to deliver to pay for all that new content.

Having said all that, 4K will be the absolute cap for quality, even way into the future.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Several vendors are providing hardware for a market that I believed would not exist, drives for PC's. It appears to be a real PIA to get the right combo of hardware and software together for playback but some are doing it. I'm going to pass on this one for a while . Still, I find it interesting that UHD BD drives (internal and external) are available.

Slightly off topic but it was nice to see the PC market return to growth of late, even if it is a small percentage.