Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Vilya

On a different subject, I am also going to hazard a guess that you and Groot will be among the first on this thread to own an 8K display. I look forward to your assessments.

While I see a small increase in spatial resolution on most UHD over the BD counterpart, the increase is just not that notable. The few, well done UHD titles from a true 4K DI do look pretty amazing. The problem as I see it, most of the available content is sourced from a 2K DI. I have several UHD titles that I would have been fine on BD IF they had provided an Atmos or DTS:X sound track like they did on the UHD BD versiion.

I still do not have an anamorphic lens so I use the zoom method for 2.39 titles on my scope screen. To check framing I created two slides*, one at 1920 and the other at 3840. Using these it is real easy to see the difference in resolution.

As for 8K, only time will tell . Just had an eye exam and hearing test. Still have L 20-13, R 20-15 for visual, some HF sensitivity loss both ears. At my age I am very grateful to have eyesight and hearing this good.

*Created using vector drawings then made the slides at 600 dpi.
3840 X 2160 UHD.jpg
1920 X 1080 HD.jpg

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

The PC market is firmly on the digital side of this argument so it's odd to see you praising it.

My argument is with films and how they are watched, not computing? You are using a computing device to communicate with me right now, are you not?

I do a lot of image editing and I like a big monitor. I also prefer browsing on a PC. Ditto for gaming.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Those will be advanced codecs that Netflix use though, no?

Not sure what they have done in recent years, last I looked into it they were using eyeIO software (just a tuned-up H.264). I would wager they are not using H.265 for their 4K. At present, UHD BD seems to be the main user of H.265. Have not been to Doom9 in sometime, will bounce over there sometime soon .

Last I saw H.265 still had a lead over VP9 in terms of PSNR.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

The vast majority of games on PC are digital-only or have terrible online DRM. Therefore I play video games exclusively on consoles, never on PC.

Your views just seem so inconsistent. You complain about people watching digital movies in any form because you think it's going to lead to some terrible mobile-only future. But people playing digital games is perfectly fine?

Most people who don't play any games on their PC (myself included) can easily use cheap low-powered PCs for many years. Those sales aren't going to cause an increase in the PC market.

No, it’s the gamers that are keeping it relevant with the latest graphics cards etc.. I game on console AND PC.

What you fail to acknowledge is that gaming is like for like quality wise, absolutely identical to any disc based format. That’s the major difference. I have never argued against all digital media. Just how home cinema enthusiasts will be affected by inferior quality and the rise of 18-34 year olds watching content online and on portable devices far more than the living room tv. A very valid point.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Not sure what they have done in recent years, last I looked into it they were using eyeIO software (just a tuned-up H.264). I would wager they are not using H.265 for their 4K. At present, UHD BD seems to be the main user of H.265. Have not been to Doom9 in sometime, will bounce over there sometime soon .

Last I saw H.265 still had a lead over VP9 in terms of PSNR.

Yeah, I was aware of that eyeIO stuff but don’t keep right up to date.

Thanks for that.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

If all you care about is quality then you'd also be watching movies via physical and digital. While 4K Blu-rays are the obviously the best quality you can get, there are plenty of movies that aren't on 4K Blu-ray. Some of them have digital versions that are better quality than the existing Blu-ray and DVD versions.

Yep, I’m aware of that. It’s either watch them or don’t watch them. I seek out the best quality for every film I see. If I can’t access it, I will watch it digitally but that doesn’t mean I WANT to do that. I simply have no choice. I repeat once again, it’s what digital represents. I have made those points clear.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

The PC market is firmly on the digital side of this argument so it's odd to see you praising it.

Yeah, you said that already. Its irrelevant. A silly argument.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

So digital is going to lead to the fall of all movies and everything will be mobile-only SD subscriptions, but you occasionally support digital anyway? If digital represents such a terrible threat than how can you justify ever supporting it?

My concerns aren't nearly as extreme as yours but I still avoid digital entirely.

No you dont, you are using a digital device now.

[Ender14]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

The vast majority of games on PC are digital-only or have terrible online DRM. Therefore I play video games exclusively on consoles, never on PC.

I play games on PC for the same reason I prefer disc over digital: the quality is better.

I resisted going to digital games for a long time, but as you said, many games you can only get digitally. The risk of digital gaming is outweighed by the increased resolution and graphics fidelity, not to mention keyboard and mouse input, on the PC.

With that being said, I do have a PS4 Pro but I only play PS exclusives on it. Between PC and PS I can play pretty much any game released.

But to highlight the risk of digital games, when they released the remastered Bioshock series it automatically updated my copies on Steam to the remastered editions. Now I can't play them because they crash repeatedly. And if you look at the Steam forums it is a common problem. I'm not sure why it has not been patched to fix it, but it is very frustrating. SO I do see the evils of digital gaming, but would much rather play on a PC than a console.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

Some of them have digital versions that are better quality than the existing Blu-ray and DVD versions.

Is there a list somewhere that list such titles? In my experience that holds for some DVD titles, have not found it to be true of most BD.

Purchased Cat People and Emerald Forest on BD, both had better PQ than DVD, digital version was better as well. But they screwed the pouch on the sound track for the BD and digital, both titles are essentially mono. The DVD versions appear to have the original Dolby Stereo tracks and sound quite good, considering time period, using DPLII decoding.

Sold the BD's, never watch the digitals. Have not found a way to delete digital titles from UV and/or MA.

[Vilya]

I play games exclusively on my pc now. I have not bought a console since the Nintendo Wii and the old "fat" PS3. I lucked out on my PS3 in that it is one of the models that plays PS1 and PS2 games, too. I have a first edition Xbox 360 ( I avoided the Red Ring Of Death that many experienced) with the HD-DVD drive attachment and that is the only function it still serves.

I looked at all of the games on my computer. 169 are from Steam, 93 are from gog, and 4 were bought direct from the game publisher. At least 80% of these were gifts. Most of the games that I actually bought myself were those little $10 indie games that you find on Steam. I have very, very few "tentpole" titles. Most of my games are indies from small time developers or they are games that were big once upon a time. Anyone up for a game of Crypt Of The Necrodancer?

Gaming is mostly a social activity for me. My friends want me to play with them and they usually supply me the game. How can I refuse my friends and benefactors?

Popular console games are way too expensive. I have casually noticed that many cost $70. I simply will not pay that price. It may sound arbitrary, but $50 was always my limit for any game on any platform and for me to pay that much it had to be for a game that I knew I would love. I would not make $50 blind buys. I won't even consider spending above that, no matter the love level.

Gaming takes a distant backseat to my movie hobby. I will also rewatch a movie far more often than I will ever replay a game. Games require much more time to complete and there are very few that I care to revisit, the occasional dose of nostalgia aside. I will replay an arcade game, but I doubt I will ever replay Baldur's Gate, Diablo 2, and other time consuming ancient gaming giants.

I can not remember the last time I played a game that required I insert a disc. With gaming, then, I guess I could be labelled a bit of hypocrite. I insist on physical media for my movies and TV shows, both for the quality and for the control over the content, but I do appear to have a double standard with games. The only rationale I can offer is that I tend to play most games to completion but once and that most of my games were gifts. Many of these little indie games would never see a disc version released, either. And unlike digital streaming, digitally acquired games do equal the quality of their disc counterparts as far as I can tell, anyways. I have had no major problems playing any of my digitally acquired games. Most games are a one-off experience and that makes them more of a casual indulgence. Movie collecting, though, that is some serious business and only the best will do: physical media.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Vilya

I play games exclusively on my pc now. I have not bought a console since the Nintendo Wii and the old "fat" PS3. I lucked out on my PS3 in that it is one of the models that plays PS1 and PS2 games, too. I have a first edition Xbox 360 ( I avoided the Red Ring Of Death that many experienced) with the HD-DVD drive attachment and that is the only function it still serves.

I looked at all of the games on my computer. 169 are from Steam, 93 are from gog, and 4 were bought direct from the game publisher. At least 80% of these were gifts. Most of the games that I actually bought myself were those little $10 indie games that you find on Steam. I have very, very few "tentpole" titles. Most of my games are indies from small time developers or they are games that were big once upon a time. Anyone up for a game of Crypt Of The Necrodancer?

Gaming is mostly a social activity for me. My friends want me to play with them and they usually supply me the game. How can I refuse my friends and benefactors?

Popular console games are way too expensive. I have casually noticed that many cost $70. I simply will not pay that price. It may sound arbitrary, but $50 was always my limit for any game on any platform and for me to pay that much it had to be for a game that I knew I would love. I would not make $50 blind buys. I won't even consider spending above that, no matter the love level.

Gaming takes a distant backseat to my movie hobby. I will also rewatch a movie far more often than I will ever replay a game. Games require much more time to complete and there are very few that I care to revisit, the occasional dose of nostalgia aside. I will replay an arcade game, but I doubt I will ever replay Baldur's Gate, Diablo 2, and other time consuming ancient gaming giants.

I can not remember the last time I played a game that required I insert a disc. With gaming, then, I guess I could be labelled a bit of hypocrite. I insist on physical media for my movies and TV shows, both for the quality and for the control over the content, but I do appear to have a double standard with games. The only rationale I can offer is that I tend to play most games to completion but once and that most of my games were gifts. Many of these little indie games would never see a disc version released, either. And unlike digital streaming, digitally acquired games do equal the quality of their disc counterparts as far as I can tell, anyways. I have had no major problems playing any of my digitally acquired games. Most games are a one-off experience and that makes them more of a casual indulgence. Movie collecting, though, that is some serious business and only the best will do: physical media.

Yep, games are games. Superb memories but once I have completed them, I’m done. It’s only multi player where that doesn’t apply. Movies I can watch over and over and I need the best quality.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Yep, games are games. Superb memories but once I have completed them, I’m done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFxE...ature=youtu.be

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

I have no problem with digital tools. My PC is a tool for accessing programs. Firefox is a tool for accessing websites. Blu-ray.com is a tool for facilitating conversations (like this one) and providing information about discs. In all cases they are completely replaceable by something functionally identical that anyone can make. If Blu-ray.com shuts down I can just find another website that serves the same function, many of the posters will likely even move to another website.

But art doesn't work that way. If I am unable to access a specific movie or video game I can't just use find an equivalent. I value the individual movies and video games. I assume you also value individual movies.

You know I do, but your games comments are still irrelevant. Everyone on the planet uses digital tools these days. It has nothing to do with my love of 4K disc and Blu-ray/3D.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

You have all these fears about what digital supporters will do to the movie industry and your constantly complaining about them. I makes you kind of a jerk to support similar things being done to the video game industry.

So you will stop gaming if disc disappears? Not a chance.

Am I a jerk for using maps on my smartphone? Am I a jerk for using a food app to order a takeaway? Am I a jerk to phone people? Am I a jerk to use my IPad to order my Blu-rays?

My main passion is films and Blu-ray and 4K Blu-ray is the best way to watch them. That’s not the same for gaming. I buy lots of VR games. Some of them are digital exclusives BUT they are pixel for pixel, identical to any disc version. I don’t collect games on disc because I’m not interested in the artwork and it’s far easier to scroll and play games stored on my PS4.

It’s very possible to have one standard for a pastime and another for a main passion. I know folks who read all their magazines digitally but wouldn’t dream of watching digital films and demand the best. You can’t take my stance on one subject and apply it to all forms of entertainment.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Is there a list somewhere that list such titles? In my experience that holds for some DVD titles, have not found it to be true of most BD.

Purchased Cat People and Emerald Forest on BD, both had better PQ than DVD, digital version was better as well. But they screwed the pouch on the sound track for the BD and digital, both titles are essentially mono. The DVD versions appear to have the original Dolby Stereo tracks and sound quite good, considering time period, using DPLII decoding.

Sold the BD's, never watch the digitals. Have not found a way to delete digital titles from UV and/or MA.

Now you're talking Wendell, I Love Cat People. Had the DVD, upgraded D2D and now I have it in my Digital Colllection in HDX.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Now you're talking Wendell, I Love Cat People. Had the DVD, upgraded D2D and now I have it in my Digital Colllection in HDX.

If you don't mind the sound track being mono and the video being a wax look (too much DNR) then you should be happy the digital version. Will keep the DVD till a proper BD is done (Criterion Collection or Twilight Time).

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

If you don't mind the sound track being mono and the video being a wax look (too much DNR) then you should be happy the digital version. Will keep the DVD till a proper BD is done (Criterion Collection or Twilight Time).

Vudu has it in 1080P with Dolby Digital 5.1, and Nastassja Kinski and Annette O'Toole look pretty good. John Heard playing Oliver Yates tells Kinshi, Irena Gellier when eating Oysters, "You just take a swig of beer, and let those little sucker slide right down!"

[Groot]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

You have all these fears about what digital supporters will do to the movie industry and your constantly complaining about them. You're kind of a jerk for supporting similar things being done to the video game industry.

Christ sakes. What is wrong with you?

[brap hawg]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

No, it’s the gamers that are keeping it relevant with the latest graphics cards etc.. I game on console AND PC.

What you fail to acknowledge is that gaming is like for like quality wise, absolutely identical to any disc based format. That’s the major difference. I have never argued against all digital media. Just how home cinema enthusiasts will be affected by inferior quality and the rise of 18-34 year olds watching content online and on portable devices far more than the living room tv. A very valid point.

Not necessarily the same quality wise when you look at the entire package. The few games that I have paid for are physical copies with the game on disc that don't require me to go through some scum "service" like Steam, I install from disc and that is it, no Steam required. I only play on PC and have never and will never give money to Steam, Uplay, Origin, battle.net, GOG, etc.
Digitally distributed games and people that pay for it have lowered the quality of gaming, especially on PC. The developers, publishers, and platforms love it since on top of lowering costs since they don't have to give you anything in return for your money anymore, it has created the perfect environment for disgusting business tactics such as lots of easy DLC, micro transactions, early access aka paying to test a game when devs used to have to pay people to test their game, intentionally releasing unfinished/buggy games to the point of being unplayable since they can just be easily patched later, doesn't leave a sour taste in your mouth for paying for a game that is unfinished/buggy to the point of being unplayable since it is so easy to update, games as a service which digital distribution inherently is, not being able to sell it, making games even more popular from easy access to people who otherwise wouldn't play or play as much thus making them a huge market which makes companies make games focused on them instead, lowered the barrier for entry, etc
People have double standards when it comes to video games and always give the video game companies a pass that they don't give to anyone else.