It’s also the target for a new music and entertainment venue proposed for the East end of London by the Madison Square Garden group. If plans for the MSG Sphere get the nod from London mayor later this year, it will house the “largest and highest resolution LED screen in the world” at a resolution which this reporter understands to be 32K.
The screen will also be curved to fit the structure’s golf ball design and allow for “immersive” performances (think Black Mirror’s ‘Rachel, Jack and Ashley Too’ with a giant holographic Miley Cyrus) and augmented reality.
There will also be an adaptive acoustics system that delivers “crystal-clear audio to every guest”, a haptic system that will convey bass so the audience can “feel” the experience and wireless connectivity that delivers 25 megabits per second for every guest (presumably based on 5G).
What’s more the 90-ft high sphere will be clad in LEDs panels to project ultra-high def footage, perhaps live from the event inside, over 150 metres away.
"8K resolution equals a ‘Boredom-lands’ stutter-fest, no matter how powerful your GPU"
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If you needed more evidence that 8K gaming on a PC isn’t a realistic proposition given current graphics technology, well, here it is in the form of Borderlands 3 being benchmarked running at 8K – and proving even more demanding than Gears 5 was last week.
Yes, this is another round of benchmarking from TweakTown designed to make any graphics card in existence sweat buckets, including the mighty Nvidia Titan RTX, which comes bristling with 24GB of GDDR6 of video RAM – but was once again brought to its knees by the demands of 8K gaming.
No doubt 8K sets once they become more affordable will be the next big thing for smart TV's. How do you get someone to upgrade a nice 4K TV that's still would be perfectly good for years and years to come? ahhh... 8K. That sports game or movie upscaled to 8K, yep, will be the next big thing. Though this will be different than 1080p to 4K, I think more people will look at their 4K sets and equipment as still good enough vs 8K.
No doubt 8K sets once they become more affordable will be the next big thing for smart TV's. How do you get someone to upgrade a nice 4K TV that's still would be perfectly good for years and years to come? ahhh... 8K. That sports game or movie upscaled to 8K, yep, will be the next big thing. Though this will be different than 1080p to 4K, I think more people will look at their 4K sets and equipment as still good enough vs 8K.
I agree; the transition from 4K to 8K should be slower than from 1080p to 4K.
It will happen with solidity though, from owners of 4K OLED TVs who want the best and latest. ...And the others too, wanting a bigger screen, getting rid of their Samsung curved TVs, people who want to upgrade their OLED burn-in issues, people with large families who can't get a clear picture sitting @ the sides (LCD LED TVs), people who are into pixel numbers, HDR latest development, fastest video processors, more color gradations (accuracy), people who live on the edge of technologies...early adopters, rich entrepreneurs, young professionals, video industry people, cameramen, cinemaphiles, sports aficionados, Blu-ray gurus, motion blur haters, ...people on a drive to higher picture quality.
We are already in it; it's just slow today, but tomorrow ...
I’ll wait until there is actual 8K standard before getting into 8K. This is like 4K all over again.
4K started with 4K “lite” of 10.2 Gbps, then they added HDCP 2.2, then 18 Gbps (this is knowing full well that 4K ultimate goal was 18 Gbps.
I bought into HD when there was no real standard (component only input with 960p (should’ve waited until 1080p), I bought into 4K after HDCP 2.2 but before HDR was conceived (bought into it a year before the first UHD BD was announced), not getting into 8K too early anymore...
Who am I kidding? I will end up buying 8K once an 8K projector (native) is released. I’m a sucker for these kinds of punishments
One of the consumer items that enjoyed a bump in sales prior to this month’s sales tax hike was TV sets, specifically those that feature 4K and 8K displays. In many cases, it simply appears the timing was right. Many households hadn’t bought new televisions since the introduction of digital terrestrial broadcasts in 2011, but there’s also next year’s Tokyo Olympics to look forward to in glistening ultrahigh definition.
Nevertheless, there is still some confusion over the difference between 4K and 8K displays. Obviously, 8K picture quality is better and so is the sound, but why are 8K displays being pushed onto the market when 4K displays were introduced so recently? Several weeks ago, I was at NHK to talk to an executive about the public broadcaster’s upcoming promotion of 8K technology at an industry convention in Europe. NHK is the only broadcaster in the world right now with a fully dedicated 8K broadcast channel, since the technology was chiefly developed by the public broadcaster. TVs with 4K displays were developed by a number of international players.
The Olympics certainly had a role in prodding NHK to get 8K out there as soon as possible, but the public broadcaster, which also has a 4K channel, wants to stay ahead of the curve. All the major commercial TV companies in Japan launched satellite 4K channels last year, but only NHK has an 8K channel. Apparently, commercial stations need to improve their 4K technology before they move on to 8K, and they’re having a difficult time of it.
A series of articles in the Asahi Shimbun in August discussed a matter that had yet to attract much attention: A home electronics retailer received complaints from people who had purchased 4K TVs who claimed that their picture was too dark. In its investigation, the Asahi Shimbun talked to manufacturers who said the problem also had more to do with the 4K broadcasts themselves, but NHK broadcasts were less frequently the subject of these complaints. Instead, there seemed to be issues with how commercial broadcasters present their 4K content.
A reporter from the Asahi Shimbun carried out a test in May. He compared an image on a 2K display to one on a 4K display, both by the same manufacturer and using the same display size. He watched the same news shows broadcast on both 2K and 4K channels, and in “standard mode” found that, indeed, the 4K images were noticeably darker than the 2K images. When the brightness setting was turned up to maximum on 2K and 4K displays, the difference was less obvious, but at that point he couldn’t tell if it was a problem with the device or a problem with the broadcast.
The improved picture quality on 4K displays is due to the simple fact that a 4K screen has four times as many pixels as a 2K screen, and the number of colors that can be reproduced is larger. More significantly, greater contrast is achieved, meaning darker blacks and brighter whites by a factor of more than 10.
According to an expert interviewed by the Asahi Shimbun, part of the darkness problem stems from a mismatch between the capabilities of the broadcast and the capabilities of the device. 4K broadcasts use the highest brightness setting but current 4K TV sets can’t quite reproduce that intensity. 2K devices make up for their limited brightness with backlighting, but if you incorporated backlighting into a 4K display you’d lose the overall contrast benefits.
Thus, the darkness problem would appear to be the manufacturers’ fault, and, seeking answers, the Asahi Shimbun reporter contacted the five main TV makers in Japan. Four of them said they don’t talk publicly about brightness, with one commenting that they “didn’t compete” in terms of brightness and another saying that brightness is “determined by many factors.” A Toshiba representative admitted that the cost of boosting the brightness of a 4K set to its limit would make the cost prohibitive. Of course, the technology is improving, and manufacturers are gradually solving the brightness problem without adding too much in cost but, as of June, nearly 7 million 4K TV sets had been shipped, and the implication is that these devices may already be obsolete.
But maybe it’s more than the TV set. When proper 4K cameras are used to record or transmit proper 4K broadcasts there’s usually no problem, but when 2K cameras are used for 4K broadcasts, the resulting images are dark. NHK has no problem in this regard because it helped invent the technology and all its 4K and 8K content is made with corresponding equipment. However, commercial broadcasters have to adjust the transmission depending on the type of camera used since their 4K channels also have advertisements, and they may be prohibited from adjusting images. Consequently, the program’s specifications may be set to that of the commercials’, meaning the overall picture quality could be degraded.
The question no one seems to be asking is: Why obsess over these 4K problems when 8K is already here? For one thing, the amount of data needed for 8K broadcasts is huge, so satellite broadcast technology is not the ideal means of transmission. NHK told me that when 5G networks become widely available, 8K will make more sense because 5G can handle huge amounts of data. More to the point, 4K and 8K satellite broadcasts require special tuners and dishes. Why go to the expense of buying new stuff when 8K will someday extract images, sound and data from your already installed 5G internet connection?
The upshot of the Asahi series is that there is no satisfactory advice for people looking to upgrade to 4K, or even 8K, for that matter. And maybe it’s not important. After all, it’s common knowledge in Japan that only older people still watch television anymore, at least on TV sets, and that both 4K and 8K can only be fully appreciated on very large displays. Young people, if they watch TV at all, tend to watch it on their smartphones or tablets. The future of TV will depend more on content than it will on devices.
Even in the few short weeks since IFA finished, though, the shifting 8K sands have uncovered some new ‘wrinkles’.
First, while I was testing LG’s two debut 8K TVs recently, the 88OLEDZ9 and 75SM99, it became clear that despite LG’s ‘Our TVs are Real 8K’ message, neither set can actually play any 8K content right now. The sets have shipped without the necessary firmware to handle 8K - not even 8K stills - via online or USB sources. And while LG tells me that the HDMIs on its new 8K TVs should be able to take 8K, there are no HDMI-based 8K sources in existence that I know of.
Thankfully there is a solution incoming for this unfortunate ‘no 8K playback on your Real 8K TV’ situation. But the fix doesn’t just involve a firmware update; it will also entail the addition of an external decoder box.
Both the firmware update and decoder box (which attaches to one of the TVs’ USB ports and HDMIs) are expected to roll out in December, with the decoder box thankfully being made available free of charge to any SM99 or OLEDZ9 owner who requests one. Having to add an external box is hardly an ideal solution, though, and it seems strange to launch an 8K TV before it’s actually ready and able to play any sort of 8K content.
Another significant development since IFA has come from The International Committee for Display Metrology (ICDM) - the organisation behind the Information Display Measurements Standard (IDMS) document that LG quoted on the ‘Real 8K’ part of its IFA stand and in accompanying press materials. Essentially the ICDM has come out with a statement making it clear that it does not endorse LG’s bold claims about the so-called Contrast Modulation method being essential to measuring resolution (full details on this can be found in this earlier story).
Issued in the last week of September, the new ICDM statement contains a couple of particularly poignant paragraphs. First, it states that:
“The ICDM does not mediate any issues concerning companies reporting any data obtained through their use of the content of the IDMS document. According to Section 1.1.3 in IDMS, ‘(the ICDM) does not set compliance values for any of its measurements. That is the job of other standards organizations.’ Please refer to the relevant sections of the IDMS for further clarification.”
The final line of the ICDM’s recent clarification announcement then reiterates this even more clearly:
“The IDMS does not set performance standards, but gives guidance about how to measure displays. This will allow component suppliers, display manufacturers and customers to clearly communicate, understand and agree with the measurement and characterization methods upon which performance standards are based.”
To be clear, the ICDM’s clarification that it didn’t endorse LG’s use of some of the IDMS’s buffet of measurements to push its ‘Real 8K’ TV story is equally not to be seen as an endorsement of Samsung’s position. It’s just a statement of neutrality made in response to LG being seen by some as using IDMS methodology in a partisan way.
In one other twist in the ‘defining 8K’ story, though, the US-based Consumer Technology Association (CTA) came out mid-September with a new 8K Ultra HD standard that DOES appear to support LG’s assertions. This states that in order to be defined as an ‘8K Ultra HD’ TV, an 8K display “shall meet a minimum of 50% contrast modulation using a 1x1 grill pattern”.
The CTA standard definition even quotes the IDMS and ICDM in its new standard’s wording. So I guess had this CTA Standard been announced before IFA, LG could have used it instead of more controversially quoting the IDMS.
Not surprisingly, these latest developments are unlikely to mark the end of the 8K battle. Crucially we’re still awaiting the definition of an 8K display from separate standards body, The 8K Association. And when I spoke to 8K Association Executive Director Chris Chinnock at IFA (I refer you again to my previous story on this), I got the distinct impression that the 8KA’s definition of an 8K display might not depend nearly so heavily on contrast modulation as the CTA’s.
"Using the VSON approach in an ATSC 3.0 environment."
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Channel capacity will always be an issue for broadcasters with the biggest challenge being spectrum availability. Without major resource and technology upgrades, will broadcasters be able to support future services when circumstances change? The viable system approach proposed in this paper provides a possible solution.
JohnAV, thanks for posting this. Just a few comments as I've sold, tested, compared and own all of the 8K TVs on the market. LG's 88" Z9P, Sony's 85" and 98" Z9G, Samsung 65", 75" and 82" Q900R and LG's 75" SM9970P.
Since the article mostly speaks about LG's 88" 8k OLED, the Z9P I'll just address a few items that I do not agree with from John Archer's article.
1st, Right out of the box, LG's Z9P plays 8K beautifully. They have built-in 8K HDR video and still native clips that look stunning.
2nd, what's wrong with gifting clients future decoding formats with a free STB? That's a good thing and keeps LG's Z9 current and future proof. Remember all 4 HDMI inputs are the full 48Gbps HDMI 2.1. Bravo LG!
3rd, Anyone who does not agree that you need to modulate (turn on) all if not most of the 33million pixels would simply just be wrong.
4th, the ICDM resolution standard does call out pixel modulation as one of the standards to confirm the true resolution of a claimed display. The ICDM may not like LG using or quoting the ICDM standard as proof of the 8K TVs being the real 8K, but the standard is correctly quoted and is a fact.
5th LG designed the Z9P and SM9970P with a second SoC chipset that is specifically developed with learned AI to up-convert all lower resolution to 8K. I can tell you first hand this up-conversion processing works beautifully and FHD and especially 4K content looks absolutely beautiful.
Most importantly you can't comment on the picture quality of these new 8K TVs unless you have worked closely with them with varied content and comparing them side-by-side, which I do everyday. You have my guarantee that everyone (novices and top professional alike) who experiences LG's 88" 8K TV will all agree.... this TV delivers the very best picture ever seen and it's not a small amount better.
5th LG designed the Z9P and SM9970P with a second SoC chipset that is specifically developed with learned AI to up-convert all lower resolution to 8K. I can tell you first hand this up-conversion processing works beautifully and FHD and especially 4K content looks absolutely beautiful.
So to be clear, LG is giving free "One Connect Box" style module to the tv owners? occupying 2 USB ports and an HDMI? Did they rush the TV out? I feel like this box should have been given out right inside the packaging. The TV is thin but man that's an extra part and taking port real estate.
Pretty sure at CES they'll just announce it being built into the tv.
Of course they’re rushing things out. During the stage of production there was no 48 gbps HDMI 2.1 chip. I’ve been saying this to everybody but noooooo, what do I know
When I first saw Sony mention 8K support I thought it was wildly transparent that they're just touting having HDMI 2.1 compliance as being able to "play games in 8K." I'm sure they could use dynamic resolution scaling to present a cutscene at 8K perhaps, but regular gameplay? I don't buy it for a second.
Having used my 8K OLED for a few days now I can say that the increase in resolution and sharpness is easily apparant even on 4K content. The naysayers saying no one can see the difference are wrong as usual.
Although admittedly the difference is probably not enough for most people to care about. And you do have to be sitting at the closest recommended seating distance which 99% of people simply don't do.
Each bump in resolution from SD > HD > 4K > 8K gets greater diminishing returns. I feel like we've reached the end.
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Originally Posted by sapiendut
Of course they’re rushing things out. During the stage of production there was no 48 gbps HDMI 2.1 chip. I’ve been saying this to everybody but noooooo, what do I know
I believe LG developed their own HDMI 2.1 chipset in-house precisely because the normal HDMI suppliers hadn't made one yet.
"8K resolution equals a ‘Boredom-lands’ stutter-fest, no matter how powerful your GPU"
I think it's a bit shortsighted to rule out 8K for games based on current gen capabilities since downsampling from higher resolutions has been a thing in gaming for many years.
The older the game gets—or if it's not a demanding game to begin with—the less taxing it is to downsample on modern hardware.
I know many, including myself, who have played games at 4K resolutions on non-4K monitors for the image quality benefits (dowsampling as a form of high quality anti-aliasing, increased LoD (typically)). In fact, where possible, I always try to play at downsampled resolutions. Nvidia even built in to their settings a few years back as an easy way to achieve this: DSR factors (1.25x/1.5x/2x/4x/etc), which makes those higher resolutions available in-game.
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