Star Wars Wars the UOT Strikes Back and OTHER PEZ dispensers

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

Oh my! That's all so terribly subjective. I was not that impressed by the first "Matrix". I thought it was okay... As the "Matrix Reloaded" came along it blew me away and became my favorite. LotR on the other hand has a very weak middle chapter. Especially in the movie-adaption because they dropped that great Cliffhanger-ending. AotC is my favourite Star Wars Episode... So this construct only works for you.

While I disagree with you about many things Star Wars related, I do agree that The Matrix Reloaded was awesome!

I like the first one, a lot, too, however, so I don't quite share the "it was just okay" opinion. But I thought the 2nd one was actually really good and added a lot of new layers to everything.

I didn't care much for the 3rd one, though. I found it hugely disappointing.

[supersonic395]

Originally Posted by El_Jay

I thought the original Matrix was great and Reloaded and Re... whatever-o-lations made me disavow even the first movie for quite some time. I could not stand either of them.

I don't understand this mentality.

It's like cutting off your nose to spite your own face.

It's like this self-defeating, self-hating and inflicting self-punishment behaviour.

Granted you may dislike the sequels, but the first film (or any film in a series) can always be watched as a standalone film. There is no rule saying that if you watch a film, you can ONLY watch it if you watch the sequels/prequels.

It just doesn't make sense.

E.g. I only like the first TMNT (1990) film, and I hate the sequels. But those sequels have never ever affected my enjoyment or like of the first film on any repeat viewing.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by chip75

Agreed, the UK set will have what looks like a Digistack (like the Alien Quadrilogy DVD set) and a separate booklet.

The US will have a US style Alien Anthology set and from some accounts the pages of the booklet will be part of the book case design (like the US Alien Anthology set) and not a separate item. But as I said yesterday that's just speculation on my part. I thought the UK Kubrick set would be separate cases and it turned out to be a jumbo Amaray, so I was miles off.

I hope that the US Star Wars packaging ends up more like the UK Aliens packaging. I prefer actual disc hubs over card board sleeves or whatever that the discs slide into.





On a completely separate note:

Originally Posted by O_V_N

On that note, I feel that the PT doesn't have any big "whoa!" reveal-type moments that the OT has. Like you said, at the time, Vader's revelation to be Luke's father, and the revelation that Luke and Leia were siblings, were huge "whoa" moments.

Does the PT have one? I guess people who hadn't seen the OT would think that Palpatine being Darth Sidious was a "whoa" moment. Maybe it's just lost on me since I already knew who he was.

I don't think that the Palpatine/Sidious thing would have been only because that was way too obvious from the get go (which isn't a bad thing, that's just how it was).

There probably wasn't as many opportunities for surprises, but a few could have been made, and the plot of the films and the character development (particularly of the character new to the Saga) could have been planned out better.

Let me start by showing some examples of how this was done in the OT.

While Lucas didn't have the entire OT story fully fleshed out when he originally started making ANH (i.e. he didn't yet know that Vader would be Luke's father.... and he didn't have the idea of Leia being Luke's sister yet), for the most part he had a lot of the characters planned out, even ones that we (at least in the UOT) didn't meet until later.

For example, Han Solo's relationship with Jabba the Hutt. Before the SE alterations, we don't see Jabba until the 3rd film of the OT. But we hear about him quite a bit for 2 movies. We know he is after Han Solo, and that Solo is a wanted man. And he keeps pushing his luck by not going to pay Jabba off, and it catches up to him in the end.

Likewise, even though the whole "Vader is Luke's father" thing wasn't really planned from the get-go of Episode 4, it still worked in the sense that Vader was there from the beginning and we kind of "got to know" the character from afar. Granted, we didn't actually know much of anything about him, but he had a presence and what we got was sort of a form of non-verbal communication. He was this dark, mysterious guy who as far as we knew was pure evil, and after spending one whole movie and the bulk of the following one seeing him in this light, BAM, we are hit with the info that he is Luke's father.



Part of the problem with the PT (in addition to a lot of crappy acting) is that Lucas didn't really seem to have as much of a fleshed out concept for all of the characters (especially the new ones) when he started writing Episode 1. I really don't think that he had even conceived the likes of Count Dooku or General Grievous (as a couple of examples) when he wrote Episode 1. He just had a basic idea of where the OT characters like Anakin, Obi Wan, and Yoda were going to end up (and even that was probably still vague at that point).

Here's just a couple of ways that he could have made a better connection between the PT movies like he did with the OT movies....

Let's start with the Sifo Dyas thing. I know, it's been complained about to death. But the main issue with that is that it was supposed to be this significant moment of revelation, but it really wasn't explained in the movie, we had never heard of this character, and the audience was just left sitting there going, "huh?.... who?..."

(This is the point where some of the most hardcore PT defenders will make some excuse about how Lucas didn't want to explain it point blank so that people would have to "figure out" the plot... the problem supposedly isn't that he did a bad job with the movies... and that anyone who didn't get it is just stupid.... because apparently these films which are supposed to be simple popcorn movie versions of old Saturday afternoon serials in which the acting doesn't have to be good and can be cheesy, are suddenly these deep, complicated "think pieces" )

Anyway, here is what Wookiepedia says about Sifo Dyas:


"Sifo-Dyas was once a good friend of fellow Jedi Master Dooku, and had the gift of precognition. Sometime before 32 BBY, he foresaw that the Galactic Republic would face a devastating war. To defend the Republic, he secretly commissioned a clone army from the cloners of the planet Kamino. Prior to this, Dooku had left the Jedi Order, and had fallen in league with Darth Sidious, Dark Lord of the Sith. He was told by the Sith Master about Sifo-Dyas' actions, and Sidious also revealed that they could use the clone army for their own ends. As a final test of his allegiance to the dark side of the Force, Dooku murdered Sifo-Dyas and took control of the project for himself. It was Sidious' true intention to use Sifo-Dyas only as a dead-end cover for Palpatine's plot to use the clone army."

In Episode II, Obi Wan states that Sifo Dyas died "almost 10 years ago"... apparently roughly during or shortly after the events of Episode 1.
(This seems to be a trend in Episode II... at least a few things are mentioned as happening about 10 years ago. Sifo Dyas dying, Count Dooku leaving the Jedi order somewhere around that time, Anakin apparently went his separate ways from Padme and hadn't seen her since. Apparently a ton of important crap went down shortly after that parade at the end of Episode I that we never saw)

But someone else died "about 10 years ago" too... Qui Gon.

Now, how much more of a surprise and a mind **** would it have been if Obi Wan had been told that Qui Gon had been the one who commissioned the clone army?

This is how I would see it going down (if these movies and the character had been planned out better).

Even if it had only been briefly, Dooku should have been in Episode I. Preferably still formally as part of the Jedi order. And there should have been an exchange between him and Qui Gon, showing a mutual respect for each other, mentioning how Dooku was once Qui Gon master, etc.

Then we find out in Episode II that Qui Gon commissioned the clone army. Basically he would have the same concerns and premonitions that Sifo Dyas is described as having about the upcoming war (only this would be more explicitly explained). And that's why, despite the opposition that Qui Gon was getting from the Jedi Council and even Obi Wan (remember Obi Wan's line, "The boy is dangerous. They all sense it, why can't you?"), he was insistent on training Anakin. It will turn out that Qui Gon knew that a war was coming, but didn't know the exact cause (the dark side 'clouds everything' after all). But he believed that Anakin, being the chosen one, will be the very person who will save everyone. He will someday be key in preventing the war (of course he will be wrong in this), and that's why he was so insistent on Anakin being trained. But, he didn't want to reveal this info to Obi Wan or the council.


Also, in Episode II, Count Dooku wouldn't be mentioned initially at the beginning of the film as being the enemy (like Bail Organa states). It would be more of a shocking revelation later in the film. Maybe not "Vader is Luke's father" shocking, but shocking none the less.

As it stands, we really have no build up to Dooku. Other than being mentioned as the enemy early on in the film, we know nothing about him, and he doesn't really even show up until somewhere about half way into the movie.


Something else that could have been done would be to have General Grievous introduced at least at some point in Episode II. He was just suddenly there as a big threat at the beginning of Ep III, but there was really no build up to him. But, don't have him as a cyborg yet. Have him in whatever alien form he is normally, have him get injured in battle, and maybe show him going into the process of becoming the cyborg form later in the film. But don't fully show him in that form until we see him again in Episode III. Now that would have been a build up.



See, this is the kind of stuff that the prequels are lacking IMO (in addition to what should have been better acting performances).


IF the OT had been more like the PT, events like the ones I described earlier would have gone down more like this:

We wouldn't have even met Vader in Episode IV. It would have just been Grand Moff Tarkin and the other people on the Death Star. Instead, we wouldn't even hear of Vader until somewhere early in Episode V, and we wouldn't even first see him until late in the movie, just shortly before he reveals to Luke that he is Luke's father, thus building up no emotional impact for that scene what-so-ever.

Similarly, we would have never heard of Jabba the Hutt in Episodes IV and V and would have no knowledge of Han's past as a smuggler. Instead, Han would be frozen at the end of Episode V in a similar manner in that he will be the 'test' to make sure that the freezing process won't kill Luke, and Han would be taken away, but we would never hear why this bounty hunter is taking him or where he is being taken to.

Then at the beginning of Episode VI, they go to rescue Han, we meet Jabba out of the blue, and we would get this rushed backstory about how Han was smuggling for Jabba and that's why he owed Jabba a major debt, etc.



These are just some of the differences between the two trilogies, and why for a lot of people, they are just not quite equal to one another.

[JasonWard]

Originally Posted by Cowboy

How was it dead? Just because you revive a film series it does not make it great or even better for that matter.....in 1989 Star Wars was already held on that Gone with the Wind, Casablanca, King Kong plateau. Is Casablanca dead? Is Citizen Kane dead? Is The Godfather dead? Come on...why is Star Wars any different? Are these films supposed to be front page news forever? New films come along, new fads. Star Wars to my generatation was replaced by LOTR in the next generation and I am sure someday soon their will be another thing that comes along; maybe it was Avatar and its sequel? Maybe something else.....

It's a really subjective if not practically unprovable statement to say how dead or alive it was. I see that. But at the same time, you could not just go to the store and buy them easily. They weren't released as a trilogy until 1992. As a kid, by 1986, I was the only child into Star Wars I knew. But I don't recall much reverence for it until it became cool with indie crowd in the 90s. That's my experience with it.

My point is that they were far from the consciousness of the general public by that point, only ten years after "A New Hope" was released. So going back to the argument that "The Phantom Menace" is utterly forgotten by not is not true. I'm suggesting that "The Phantom Menace" might actually have floated in the public consciousness better than "Return of the Jedi" even.

I think for all intents and purposes, Star Wars totally dead from 1987 until the later half the mid-90s when the kids who grew up on it became nostalgic for it.

Lord of the Rings will never compare to any Star Wars film because it is too exclusionary. I'm not saying it didn't make money or that nerds don't obsess over it but it can't be watched by everyone. A five year old can't watch it and get it.

By the way, the list of movies you have up there, most people have never seen them. They just know of them. By that definition, anything is a classic that film scholars say is a classic. When in reality it comes down to consumption.

[The Blu Knight]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

[Show spoiler]I don't think that the Palpatine/Sidious thing would have been only because that was way too obvious from the get go (which isn't a bad thing, that's just how it was).

There probably wasn't as many opportunities for surprises, but a few could have been made, and the plot of the films and the character development (particularly of the character new to the Saga) could have been planned out better.

Let me start by showing some examples of how this was done in the OT.

While Lucas didn't have the entire OT story fully fleshed out when he originally started making ANH (i.e. he didn't yet know that Vader would be Luke's father.... and he didn't have the idea of Leia being Luke's sister yet), for the most part he had a lot of the characters planned out, even ones that we (at least in the UOT) didn't meet until later.

For example, Han Solo's relationship with Jabba the Hutt. Before the SE alterations, we don't see Jabba until the 3rd film of the OT. But we hear about him quite a bit for 2 movies. We know he is after Han Solo, and that Solo is a wanted man. And he keeps pushing his luck by not going to pay Jabba off, and it catches up to him in the end.

Likewise, even though the whole "Vader is Luke's father" thing wasn't really planned from the get-go of Episode 4, it still worked in the sense that Vader was there from the beginning and we kind of "got to know" the character from afar. Granted, we didn't actually know much of anything about him, but he had a presence and what we got was sort of a form of non-verbal communication. He was this dark, mysterious guy who as far as we knew was pure evil, and after spending one whole movie and the bulk of the following one seeing him in this light, BAM, we are hit with the info that he is Luke's father.



Part of the problem with the PT (in addition to a lot of crappy acting) is that Lucas didn't really seem to have as much of a fleshed out concept for all of the characters (especially the new ones) when he started writing Episode 1. I really don't think that he had even conceived the likes of Count Dooku or General Grievous (as a couple of examples) when he wrote Episode 1. He just had a basic idea of where the OT characters like Anakin, Obi Wan, and Yoda were going to end up (and even that was probably still vague at that point).

Here's just a couple of ways that he could have made a better connection between the PT movies like he did with the OT movies....

Let's start with the Sifo Dyas thing. I know, it's been complained about to death. But the main issue with that is that it was supposed to be this significant moment of revelation, but it really wasn't explained in the movie, we had never heard of this character, and the audience was just left sitting there going, "huh?.... who?..."

(This is the point where some of the most hardcore PT defenders will make some excuse about how Lucas didn't want to explain it point blank so that people would have to "figure out" the plot... the problem supposedly isn't that he did a bad job with the movies... and that anyone who didn't get it is just stupid.... because apparently these films which are supposed to be simple popcorn movie versions of old Saturday afternoon serials in which the acting doesn't have to be good and can be cheesy, are suddenly these deep, complicated "think pieces" )

Anyway, here is what Wookiepedia says about Sifo Dyas:


"Sifo-Dyas was once a good friend of fellow Jedi Master Dooku, and had the gift of precognition. Sometime before 32 BBY, he foresaw that the Galactic Republic would face a devastating war. To defend the Republic, he secretly commissioned a clone army from the cloners of the planet Kamino. Prior to this, Dooku had left the Jedi Order, and had fallen in league with Darth Sidious, Dark Lord of the Sith. He was told by the Sith Master about Sifo-Dyas' actions, and Sidious also revealed that they could use the clone army for their own ends. As a final test of his allegiance to the dark side of the Force, Dooku murdered Sifo-Dyas and took control of the project for himself. It was Sidious' true intention to use Sifo-Dyas only as a dead-end cover for Palpatine's plot to use the clone army."

In Episode II, Obi Wan states that Sifo Dyas died "almost 10 years ago"... apparently roughly during or shortly after the events of Episode 1.
(This seems to be a trend in Episode II... at least a few things are mentioned as happening about 10 years ago. Sifo Dyas dying, Count Dooku leaving the Jedi order somewhere around that time, Anakin apparently went his separate ways from Padme and hadn't seen her since. Apparently a ton of important crap went down shortly after that parade at the end of Episode I that we never saw)

But someone else died "about 10 years ago" too... Qui Gon.

Now, how much more of a surprise and a mind **** would it have been if Obi Wan had been told that Qui Gon had been the one who commissioned the clone army?

This is how I would see it going down (if these movies and the character had been planned out better).

Even if it had only been briefly, Dooku should have been in Episode I. Preferably still formally as part of the Jedi order. And there should have been an exchange between him and Qui Gon, showing a mutual respect for each other, mentioning how Dooku was once Qui Gon master, etc.

Then we find out in Episode II that Qui Gon commissioned the clone army. Basically he would have the same concerns and premonitions that Sifo Dyas is described as having about the upcoming war (only this would be more explicitly explained). And that's why, despite the opposition that Qui Gon was getting from the Jedi Council and even Obi Wan (remember Obi Wan's line, "The boy is dangerous. They all sense it, why can't you?"). It will turn out that Qui Gon knew that a war was coming, but didn't know the exact cause (the dark side 'clouds everything' after all). But he believe that Anakin, being the chosen one, will be the very person who will save everyone. He will someboy be key in preventing the war (of course he will be wrong in this), and that's why he was so insistent on Anakin being trained. But, he didn't want to reveal this info to Obi Wan or the council.


Also, in Episode II, Count Dooku wouldn't be mentioned initially at the beginning of the film as being the enemy (like Bail Organa states). It would be more of a shocking revelation later in the film. Maybe not "Vader is Luke's father" shocking, but shocking none the less.

As it stands, we really have no build up to Dooku. Other than being mentioned as the enemy early on in the film, we know nothing about him, and he doesn't really even show up until somewhere about half way into the movie.


Something else that could have been done would be to have General Grievous introduced at least at some point in Episode II. He was just suddenly there as a big threat at the beginning of Ep III, but there was really no build up to him. But, don't have him as a cyborg yet. Have him in whatever alien form he is normally, have him get injured in battle, and maybe show him going into the process of becoming the cyborg form later in the film. But don't fully show him in that form until we see him again in Episode III. Now that would have been a build up.



See, this is the kind of stuff that the prequels are lacking IMO (in addition to what should have been better acting performances).


IF the OT had been more like the PT, events like the ones I described earlier would have gone down more like this:

We wouldn't have even met Vader in Episode IV. It would have just been Grand Moff Tarkin and the other people on the Death Star. Instead, we wouldn't even hear of Vader until somewhere early in Episode V, and we wouldn't even first see him until late in the movie, just shortly before he reveals to Luke that he is Luke's father, thus building up no emotional impact for that scene what-so-ever.

Similarly, we would have never heard of Jabba the Hutt in Episodes IV and V and would have no knowledge of Han's past as a smuggler. Instead, Han would be frozen at the end of Episode V in a similar manner in that he will be the 'test' to make sure that the freezing process won't kill Luke, and Han would be taken away, but we would never hear why this bounty hunter is taking him or where he is being taken to.

Then at the beginning of Episode VI, they go to rescue Han, we meet Jabba out of the blue, and we would get this rushed backstory about how Han was smuggling for Jabba and that's why he owed Jabba a major debt, etc.

These are just some of the differences between the two trilogies, and why for a lot of people, they are just not quite equal to one another.

That certainly would have been interesting. I'm going to pretend for my sake that that is indeed how it all went down, and if Mr. Lucas ever decides to go all director's intent on the preekies (something I'm sure would be much more welcome than his edits to the OT), I would be all for this as an alternative.

[bmore007]

Good post Dynamo. The PT would have been so much better if it was thought out properly.

[El_Jay]

Originally Posted by supersonic395

I don't understand this mentality.

It's like cutting off your nose to spite your own face.

It's like this self-defeating, self-hating and inflicting self-punishment behaviour.

Granted you may dislike the sequels, but the first film (or any film in a series) can always be watched as a standalone film. There is no rule saying that if you watch a film, you can ONLY watch it if you watch the sequels/prequels.

It just doesn't make sense.

E.g. I only like the first TMNT (1990) film, and I hate the sequels. But those sequels have never ever affected my enjoyment or like of the first film on any repeat viewing.

The Matrix was supposed to be a trilogy. I know, not from the start, but they presented it as one big trilogy that is supposed to tie together in a meaningful way like the other Big Trilogies that have become part of popular culture.

With the sequels, they took what I thought was a great start and took all the heart right out of it. Stilted line deliveries, random plot jumps, so much stuff in there just for the sake of being "cool". After seeing those movies (which I didn't just kinda dislike, I absolutely ****ing hated) it was impossible to watch the first movie without thinking about where it was all heading.

Neo pumping Trinity's heart, flying like Superman, them suddenly having powers OUTSIDE OF THE MATRIX TOO WTFFFFFFFFFF...

It was like watching little kids play a game and make up rules as they went along. That awful dance scene where Neo is getting down with Trinity, it was just so awkward I wanted to gouge my eyes out.

I've never been so disappointed by sequels to a movie I really liked. I'm not alone either, the critics took a giant crap all over the sequels, especially the third one. I call it "Regurgitations".

Anyway like I seem to keep saying, different strokes, but maybe you understand a little better why I even liked the first movie less after seeing the sequels.

These days I just kind of ignore the sequels and watch the first one stand-alone and it is much more satisfying.

[JasonWard]

I'm not a fan of the "there was no super surprise in I-III." For starters, if there had been one, the knee-jerk response would have been that it was cheap and not as good as Vader revealing he was Luke's father. Second, could the six part story really house another reveal of that magnitude? Thirdly, if "A New Hope" and "Return of the Jedi," benefit from the reveal, why not I-III? It is the same collective story involving many of the same characters involved in that fantastic reveal in V.

A billion pages back, someone said they would like to see the Holiday Special on the Blu-ray and someone else commented that it will never happen. It almost happened with the 2004 edition according to Van Ling. Lucas considered letting them use it as an Easter Egg but it was not possible because of the size of it and the room left on the disc. I'm not saying we should expect it, but it is a possibility. I don't think it's something they would want to promote because it is so bad, consumers would be annoyed at having spent money on something like that specifically.

[shelldweller]

Originally Posted by JasonWard

I'm not a fan of the "there was no super surprise in I-III." For starters, if there had been one, the knee-jerk response would have been that it was cheap and not as good as Vader revealing he was Luke's father. Second, could the six part story really house another reveal of that magnitude? Thirdly, if "A New Hope" and "Return of the Jedi," benefit from the reveal, why not I-III? It is the same collective story involving many of the same characters involved in that fantastic reveal in V.

Yeah, you are right. Besides, isn´t it a huge surprise that Anakin turns to the dark side? I mean, it could get bigger than that. It wasn´t a surprise to us of course, but if you see the saga in the correct order it definitely is.

@Cowboy:
I guess there is no way I can make you like the Prequels or the finished Star Wars Saga for that matter. You can´t make me hate it, either. The facts are that the original Star Wars was an extraordinary film when it came out that defined movie history. It is also fact that Star Wars is now a six part Saga with Episodes that should be treated equally because they are part of one greater piece of art by one artist. All I´m saying is that newer generations are hardly given a chance to appreciate the complete saga as long first generation (conservative) "fans" are trying to spoil it for them.

[shelldweller]

Originally Posted by JasonWard

A billion pages back, someone said they would like to see the Holiday Special on the Blu-ray and someone else commented that it will never happen. It almost happened with the 2004 edition according to Van Ling. Lucas considered letting them use it as an Easter Egg but it was not possible because of the size of it and the room left on the disc. I'm not saying we should expect it, but it is a possibility. I don't think it's something they would want to promote because it is so bad, consumers would be annoyed at having spent money on something like that specifically.

I can´t imagine Lucas putting the "Holiday Special" out. I can´t even imagine anyone wanting to have it. On the other hand I can imagine a lot of people on the forum being upset if it isn´t included.. "It´s part of the first Generation of Star Wars and has to be in a complete set. I saw it as a child and it was great etc etc..."

[P@t_Mtl]

Originally Posted by shelldweller

I can´t imagine Lucas putting the "Holiday Special" out. I can´t even imagine anyone wanting to have it. On the other hand I can imagine a lot of people on the forum being upset if it isn´t included.. "It´s part of the first Generation of Star Wars and has to be in a complete set. I saw it as a child and it was great etc etc..."

If they saw it as a child way back in November 1978 and have not seen it since, they might have this reaction if they were to see it now

[Shaft Windu]

I may be a little sensitive about the term "prequel" because here in germany the movie "Rise of the Planet of the Apes" will be called "Planet der Affen - Prevolution" No joke. Having said that: Prequel may in the end be the correct term for Episodes 1-3. Peace!

Back on to the subject: Is there any indication that the DVD features of the movies (maybe in standard definition) will be included in the supplemental material on the two bonus-discs - like they did with the Bluray release of "Tron"?

[Chordata]

Originally Posted by The Blu Knight

That certainly would have been interesting. I'm going to pretend for my sake that that is indeed how it all went down, and if Mr. Lucas ever decides to go all director's intent on the preekies (something I'm sure would be much more welcome than his edits to the OT), I would be all for this as an alternative.

Originally Posted by bmore007

Good post Dynamo. The PT would have been so much better if it was thought out properly.

Amen to that. Nicely done Dynamo - I like your version better. Amazing you came up with that in a few minutes, and Lucas had 7+ years and couldn't do better.

[phatrat1982]

Originally Posted by Cowboy

Great Post Andy

But there is one thing that is wrong. Star Wars in 1977 was NOT aimed at kids. In fact in Sept of 1977 Kenner and the toy lines were scrambling all of a sudden to even get toys out by Christmas (and they failed). Lucas had no intention of "toys" in May and the summer of 77. In fact most people didnt get any toys that Christmas because they were not ready in time so you could buy vouchers. I know because I got a lot of vouchers that x mas that we could not redeem until Jan and Feb of 78.

Um that has nothing to do with it being aimed at kids or not, dude not many kids movies ever had toys made prior to that honestly come on how many Mary Poppins toys were there? That is a weak argument. Everyone who worked on Star Wars has stated in interviews numerous times that everyone thought it was a kids movie. The toys were aimed at kids but that was Lucas trying to make a buck on the off chance his film flopped it had nothing to do with who the target audience was.

[blonde_devil]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

I hope that the US Star Wars packaging ends up more like the UK Aliens packaging. I prefer actual disc hubs over card board sleeves or whatever that the discs slide into.





On a completely separate note:



I don't think that the Palpatine/Sidious thing would have been only because that was way too obvious from the get go (which isn't a bad thing, that's just how it was).

There probably wasn't as many opportunities for surprises, but a few could have been made, and the plot of the films and the character development (particularly of the character new to the Saga) could have been planned out better.

Let me start by showing some examples of how this was done in the OT.

While Lucas didn't have the entire OT story fully fleshed out when he originally started making ANH (i.e. he didn't yet know that Vader would be Luke's father.... and he didn't have the idea of Leia being Luke's sister yet), for the most part he had a lot of the characters planned out, even ones that we (at least in the UOT) didn't meet until later.

For example, Han Solo's relationship with Jabba the Hutt. Before the SE alterations, we don't see Jabba until the 3rd film of the OT. But we hear about him quite a bit for 2 movies. We know he is after Han Solo, and that Solo is a wanted man. And he keeps pushing his luck by not going to pay Jabba off, and it catches up to him in the end.

Likewise, even though the whole "Vader is Luke's father" thing wasn't really planned from the get-go of Episode 4, it still worked in the sense that Vader was there from the beginning and we kind of "got to know" the character from afar. Granted, we didn't actually know much of anything about him, but he had a presence and what we got was sort of a form of non-verbal communication. He was this dark, mysterious guy who as far as we knew was pure evil, and after spending one whole movie and the bulk of the following one seeing him in this light, BAM, we are hit with the info that he is Luke's father.



Part of the problem with the PT (in addition to a lot of crappy acting) is that Lucas didn't really seem to have as much of a fleshed out concept for all of the characters (especially the new ones) when he started writing Episode 1. I really don't think that he had even conceived the likes of Count Dooku or General Grievous (as a couple of examples) when he wrote Episode 1. He just had a basic idea of where the OT characters like Anakin, Obi Wan, and Yoda were going to end up (and even that was probably still vague at that point).

Here's just a couple of ways that he could have made a better connection between the PT movies like he did with the OT movies....

Let's start with the Sifo Dyas thing. I know, it's been complained about to death. But the main issue with that is that it was supposed to be this significant moment of revelation, but it really wasn't explained in the movie, we had never heard of this character, and the audience was just left sitting there going, "huh?.... who?..."

(This is the point where some of the most hardcore PT defenders will make some excuse about how Lucas didn't want to explain it point blank so that people would have to "figure out" the plot... the problem supposedly isn't that he did a bad job with the movies... and that anyone who didn't get it is just stupid.... because apparently these films which are supposed to be simple popcorn movie versions of old Saturday afternoon serials in which the acting doesn't have to be good and can be cheesy, are suddenly these deep, complicated "think pieces" )

Anyway, here is what Wookiepedia says about Sifo Dyas:


"Sifo-Dyas was once a good friend of fellow Jedi Master Dooku, and had the gift of precognition. Sometime before 32 BBY, he foresaw that the Galactic Republic would face a devastating war. To defend the Republic, he secretly commissioned a clone army from the cloners of the planet Kamino. Prior to this, Dooku had left the Jedi Order, and had fallen in league with Darth Sidious, Dark Lord of the Sith. He was told by the Sith Master about Sifo-Dyas' actions, and Sidious also revealed that they could use the clone army for their own ends. As a final test of his allegiance to the dark side of the Force, Dooku murdered Sifo-Dyas and took control of the project for himself. It was Sidious' true intention to use Sifo-Dyas only as a dead-end cover for Palpatine's plot to use the clone army."

In Episode II, Obi Wan states that Sifo Dyas died "almost 10 years ago"... apparently roughly during or shortly after the events of Episode 1.
(This seems to be a trend in Episode II... at least a few things are mentioned as happening about 10 years ago. Sifo Dyas dying, Count Dooku leaving the Jedi order somewhere around that time, Anakin apparently went his separate ways from Padme and hadn't seen her since. Apparently a ton of important crap went down shortly after that parade at the end of Episode I that we never saw)

But someone else died "about 10 years ago" too... Qui Gon.

Now, how much more of a surprise and a mind **** would it have been if Obi Wan had been told that Qui Gon had been the one who commissioned the clone army?

This is how I would see it going down (if these movies and the character had been planned out better).

Even if it had only been briefly, Dooku should have been in Episode I. Preferably still formally as part of the Jedi order. And there should have been an exchange between him and Qui Gon, showing a mutual respect for each other, mentioning how Dooku was once Qui Gon master, etc.

Then we find out in Episode II that Qui Gon commissioned the clone army. Basically he would have the same concerns and premonitions that Sifo Dyas is described as having about the upcoming war (only this would be more explicitly explained). And that's why, despite the opposition that Qui Gon was getting from the Jedi Council and even Obi Wan (remember Obi Wan's line, "The boy is dangerous. They all sense it, why can't you?"), he was insistent on training Anakin. It will turn out that Qui Gon knew that a war was coming, but didn't know the exact cause (the dark side 'clouds everything' after all). But he believed that Anakin, being the chosen one, will be the very person who will save everyone. He will someday be key in preventing the war (of course he will be wrong in this), and that's why he was so insistent on Anakin being trained. But, he didn't want to reveal this info to Obi Wan or the council.


Also, in Episode II, Count Dooku wouldn't be mentioned initially at the beginning of the film as being the enemy (like Bail Organa states). It would be more of a shocking revelation later in the film. Maybe not "Vader is Luke's father" shocking, but shocking none the less.

As it stands, we really have no build up to Dooku. Other than being mentioned as the enemy early on in the film, we know nothing about him, and he doesn't really even show up until somewhere about half way into the movie.


Something else that could have been done would be to have General Grievous introduced at least at some point in Episode II. He was just suddenly there as a big threat at the beginning of Ep III, but there was really no build up to him. But, don't have him as a cyborg yet. Have him in whatever alien form he is normally, have him get injured in battle, and maybe show him going into the process of becoming the cyborg form later in the film. But don't fully show him in that form until we see him again in Episode III. Now that would have been a build up.



See, this is the kind of stuff that the prequels are lacking IMO (in addition to what should have been better acting performances).


IF the OT had been more like the PT, events like the ones I described earlier would have gone down more like this:

We wouldn't have even met Vader in Episode IV. It would have just been Grand Moff Tarkin and the other people on the Death Star. Instead, we wouldn't even hear of Vader until somewhere early in Episode V, and we wouldn't even first see him until late in the movie, just shortly before he reveals to Luke that he is Luke's father, thus building up no emotional impact for that scene what-so-ever.

Similarly, we would have never heard of Jabba the Hutt in Episodes IV and V and would have no knowledge of Han's past as a smuggler. Instead, Han would be frozen at the end of Episode V in a similar manner in that he will be the 'test' to make sure that the freezing process won't kill Luke, and Han would be taken away, but we would never hear why this bounty hunter is taking him or where he is being taken to.

Then at the beginning of Episode VI, they go to rescue Han, we meet Jabba out of the blue, and we would get this rushed backstory about how Han was smuggling for Jabba and that's why he owed Jabba a major debt, etc.



These are just some of the differences between the two trilogies, and why for a lot of people, they are just not quite equal to one another.

you may be right in terms of planning. it has been well documented that the time it took to write the new movies was not nearly as long as the time it took to write the original ones - i think for the last couple, it was just a matter of months between when the first draft was completed and the filming started. i think this created all sorts of problems because once they filmed the "script", you can call the cast back for pick-up shots but you are not going to re-write the entire film and call everyone back for another year. first, not everyone is available plus it makes you as writer/director look like a complete tool. so i think we ended up with up with really a rough draft version of the movie - it looks slick but it didn't go through all the work other movies would have. just look at how many things are brought up in one movie and never carried through to the others. if they had spent a year or so on the script, then went out to film it, things would have worked out a lot better. to tie in with that, the other problem is lucas is pretty much the only one writing the films. with the others(and especially star wars), there were a lot of people involved in the writing process. lucas may have written the bulk of it but there were others who took a turn at it, changed this, polished that. with the new ones, it is just him or some yes-man who works for him so the dialogue isn't quite as sharp, the story isn't quite as tight as it could be. price of success.

[Shaft Windu]

Originally Posted by Cowboy

False Advertising at it finest. All the UOT fans should get together and try to nab them on that!

But really what they are saying is if you like his vision from 77-97 you are not a fan.

Not sure how this meets the needs of every Star Wars fan. Especially since the seperate release of the OT is not even going to be the 97SE so we can at least have a version that is not attached to the PT. (Still can't figure that one out) It should read: One new saga with three distinct sets to fit your budget.

Why even have them split up? Nobody I know would buy the OT with all the PT stuff included and not buy the PT, they would just buy the whole thing.

Exactly! If I can't call Episodes 4-6 "Sequels" - which I admitted was incorrect, then "fan" (a person with a liking and enthusiasm for something) is not something that really fits people who see only faults and bad decisions in a thing and rather block than support it... That's just my view of it.

[Bluyoda]

Originally Posted by HylianBowcaster

I think the OT's big reveal has been largely spoiled for nearly everyone in the world. Even if you've never seen the OT, I think everyone knows Vader is Luke's father.

Yep, even my gf, who has never seen SW quotes that infamous line (Luke! I am your father!)

Originally Posted by Jay444

Market oversaturation has killed any chance of the Phantom Menace becoming a classic. After ROTJ there was very little Star Wars in any form for close to 15 years. Unfortunatly, that is not the case with the PT. They have very little chance of becoming classics if Lucas keeps churning out product. There needs to be a gap there.

Also, the PT has a middle chapter that was really poorly recieved which also hurts the overall chances of the PT being considered classic films. I love the PT and ROTS but AOTC is just not very good. A middle chapter is EVERYTHING in a trilogy. If it is great (i.e. EBS, Two Towers, Back to the Future 2) your film series can and will become a classic. IF it sucks (ATOC, Matrix Reloaded, Transformers 2) then your films will be forgotten or considered unimportant. The Matrix was a great movie before its sequel... Now, its just the Matrix....

AOTC is brilliant, and many consider it their favorite Episode! To each his/her own.

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

While I disagree with you about many things Star Wars related, I do agree that The Matrix Reloaded was awesome!

I like the first one, a lot, too, however, so I don't quite share the "it was just okay" opinion. But I thought the 2nd one was actually really good and added a lot of new layers to everything.

I didn't care much for the 3rd one, though. I found it hugely disappointing.

Oh, dear! Know I know your taste.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

Exactly! If I can't call Episodes 4-6 "Sequels" - which I admitted was incorrect, then "fan" (a person with a liking and enthusiasm for something) is not something that really fits people who see only faults and bad decisions in a thing and rather block than support it... That's just my view of it.

Well, here's the point that I think you are missing. These people ARE fans, and they were for many, many years prior to the changes.

But after 20 years or so, Lucas came along, and through the prequels and changes to the OT, more or less redefined what Star Wars is all about. You can't really blame people for being frustrated over that and taking issues with it.

People find fault with the prequels because, well.. there IS fault with them. Look at my long post from a couple of pages back (which has gotten some favorable responses). You say that you don't see what is so different about the PT compared to the OT.... well, I more than spelled out the kinds of issues that made it different in a less than desirable way. There wasn't nearly as much build up to major events as there should have been.

Also, while it maybe hasn't been as often as the more negative statements, I and many others here who have a lot of issues with the PT have at least from time to time pointed out things about them that we DO like. I.e. I was pretty happy seeing Yoda finally involved in a lightsaber battle, for example.

Also part of the reason why many people continue to discuss their frustration with the PT is specifically because they are Star Wars fans at their core. But it went from a more-or-less simple, straight forward fandom to a very complicated and conflicted one.

I think everyone went into the prequels WANTING them to be good and WANTING to like them. But while there were a few "highlights" here and there, at their core, they just weren't nearly as much of a well fleshed-out story as the OT. Lucas seemed to focus more on flashly special effects than a coherent plot with a lot of twists, turns, and surprises. Instead we are kind of hap-hazardly having after-thought backstory thrown in our face just shortly before the point in which that info become relevant, rather than having it built up in a natural flowing way.

The point boils down to if we weren't Star Wars fans, then we wouldn't even concern ourselves with how the prequels turned out. Under normal circumstances, if I go to a movie and I end up not liking it, it's usually not something that I talk about frequently for years to come. I may complain about it during the time immediately following my viewing, and maybe from time to time later on if someone else happens to bring up the subject of that movie, but in general I move on, don't concern myself with it, and just avoid watching it again if it happens to pop up on TV later on or something.

The prequels are different in that they contain characters that many of us love and have a fondness fore, there are little aspects here and there that are good, but the end execution just left a lot to be desired for many of us.




It also seems that the people who really like the PT as is are less concerned about plot points, etc, and are just happy to have the flashy special effects, light saber battles, something "new" that is Star Wars related in general, and some kind of new story to follow (no matter how hap-hazardly written it might be), and they are just fine with that. And if that's all it takes to please you, then I guess more power to you. I think it's this more (with all due respect) "simple minded" approach that allows some people to look at all 6 movies as being essentially the same, because in the sense of those basic elements, they are kind of the same.

Where as the people who are conflicted with it do see it on a deeper level, and see the major flaws with it, not just in relation to the OT, but in a more general level in terms of the general rules and guidelines of filmmaking and story telling. And unfortunately we are not just able to "turn off" seeing these things and take the more simplified approach towards it. These movies are not of the same calibur in that respect at the OT. That's just the way it is, and it's why generally speaking the PT has gotten a lot more flack from critics than the OT ever did.

Originally Posted by Bluyoda

Oh, dear! Know I know your taste.

And what would that be? You say this like it's a negative thing. If so, do you direct this in respone to me NOT liking the 3rd Matrix movie very much, or in response to me liking the 1st and/or 2nd? because if it's the latter (the 1st or 2nd), Shaft Windu expressed his like for those movies, particularly the 2nd one. So, wouldn't he (someone who seems to be on the same side as you when it comes to Star Wars) therefore be just as guilty as me over whatever "bad taste" you accuse me of? You might want to think before you post.

And how can you claim to "know my taste" based solely on opinions expressed about one other movie franchise?


At least I can actually articulate my opinions about Star Wars in an intelligent, well thought out, adult manner. Even if you don't agree with what I said, at least my post about the ways the PT could be improved was well thought out. It's more than I can say for your posts (which lately are just you quoting a ton of other posts at once and giving these pointless short little replies that add pretty much nothing to the conversation), or the posts of many others who seem to just "love" the PT and overall updated Saga as a whole without question and act like Lucas is some sort of Messiah who should never be ridiculed, criticized, or questioned under any circumstance, and we should just accept every little thing that he does as perfect and wonderful no matter what it is... and those who say anything negative about him should be punished.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by The Blu Knight

That certainly would have been interesting. I'm going to pretend for my sake that that is indeed how it all went down, and if Mr. Lucas ever decides to go all director's intent on the preekies (something I'm sure would be much more welcome than his edits to the OT), I would be all for this as an alternative.

Originally Posted by bmore007

Good post Dynamo. The PT would have been so much better if it was thought out properly.

Originally Posted by O_V_N

Amen to that. Nicely done Dynamo - I like your version better. Amazing you came up with that in a few minutes, and Lucas had 7+ years and couldn't do better.

Thank you guys for the compliments. Those are just meant as examples of ways it could be improved. By no means to I feel that it's the "only" way that things should have been done, but it's just one possible way things could have gone in a much better direction IMO.

Originally Posted by blonde_devil

you may be right in terms of planning. it has been well documented that the time it took to write the new movies was not nearly as long as the time it took to write the original ones - i think for the last couple, it was just a matter of months between when the first draft was completed and the filming started. i think this created all sorts of problems because once they filmed the "script", you can call the cast back for pick-up shots but you are not going to re-write the entire film and call everyone back for another year. first, not everyone is available plus it makes you as writer/director look like a complete tool. so i think we ended up with up with really a rough draft version of the movie - it looks slick but it didn't go through all the work other movies would have. just look at how many things are brought up in one movie and never carried through to the others. if they had spent a year or so on the script, then went out to film it, things would have worked out a lot better. to tie in with that, the other problem is lucas is pretty much the only one writing the films. with the others(and especially star wars), there were a lot of people involved in the writing process. lucas may have written the bulk of it but there were others who took a turn at it, changed this, polished that. with the new ones, it is just him or some yes-man who works for him so the dialogue isn't quite as sharp, the story isn't quite as tight as it could be. price of success.

I agree with this, and I think it really shows in the end product. Lucas should have at least had a solid overall outline conceived for the entire PT before he even started writing the script for Episode I. That probably would have helped.

Originally Posted by El_Jay

I am looking forward to watching the saga in 1080p video with 6.1 surround sound on September 16th.

[Show spoiler]Hahaha, just for you, Dynamo.

Thanks, I appreciate it!

[Shaft Windu]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

It also seems that the people who really like the PT as is are less concerned about plot points, etc, and are just happy to have the flashy special effects, light saber battles, something "new" that is Star Wars related in general, and some kind of new story to follow (no matter how hap-hazardly written it might be), and they are just fine with that. And if that's all it takes to please you, then I guess more power to you. I think it's this more (with all due respect) "simple minded" approach that allows some people to look at all 6 movies as being essentially the same, because in the sense of those basic elements, they are kind of the same.

Where as the people who are conflicted with it do see it on a deeper level, and see the major flaws with it, not just in relation to the OT, but in a more general level in terms of the general rules and guidelines of filmmaking and story telling. And unfortunately we are not just able to "turn off" seeing these things and take the more simplified approach towards it. These movies are not of the same calibur in that respect at the OT. That's just the way it is, and it's why generally speaking the PT has gotten a lot more flack from critics than the OT ever did.

Sorry, but that's just about the opposite of how I feel. The story of the prequels is much more complex than that of the Original Trilogy! The prequels show a political and military development over the three films. You have major developments in each movie (Republic protected by the Jedi - Return of the Sith - Seperatist Movement - The Clone Wars - Fall of the Repubic - Foundation of the Empire). In the Original Trilogy there is just the Civil War in all three movies! Which is okay for me - but you can't say the prequels are just Special Effects!?!

When "The Phantom Menace" came along I was already familiar with "Hero with a 1000 faces" by Joseph Campell and the writings on archetypes by C.G. Jung. You can unlock a treasure chest of wisdom when you watch the Saga from that angle. The symmetry of the two trilogys and the mirroring scenes and characters that bounce off each other to create a intriguing web is absolutely fascinating! f.e. The inner journey of Anakin is mirrored in the political story:

The Phantom Menace is the hidden potential in the boy as well as the Hidden Lord Of the Sith a.k.a. Chancelor Palpatine.
The Army Of Clones is a gigantic force that can be used for good or for evil, to end a war or to back up a dictatorship - Anakin discovers his equally gigantic powers that can be used to protect or to destroy.
The Revenge Of the Sith sees the republic with all its different voices become a dictatorship. In the same moment Anakin gives himself to the dark side and shuts out all his emotions and affiliations - except hate.
Even in the OT you can see these images. The Death Star is the unpenetratable wall that Anakin has build around himself. Only as his son destroys this "prison" he reveals to him that he is his father.

You can see the symbolism also in the droids. It's no coincidence that C-3PO was build by Anakin. He symbolizes his conciousness like R2D2 represents the subconciousness that has to be interpreted by the conciosness. When you know that you can see the connection:

Young Anakin gets in contact with the Jedi and the force = C3PO (without coverings) is intoduced to R2...
When Anakin reveals himself to his son, C-3PO is dismembered. That symbolizes the devastating effect the revelation had on Luke.

I could give you tons of examples of inclusions of art, myth and psychology in the 6 movies. Have you ever tried to assign one sign of the zodiac to each of the 12 Jedi-council-members in Episode 1? It's pretty easy

So please: you can say that you don't dig the movies but don't tell me they are dumb CGI movies. That seems really ignorant to me!