Scanners (1981)

[tama]

Originally Posted by HD Goofnut

Have those critics viewed the Subkultur disc yet? If you give someone one choice and once choice only compared to the DVD of course they are going to say it looks fantastic.

I'm going to ignore the rest of your baseless insult. Do it again and I will report you.

You can report him but you're the one coming across like a jack-ass here.

Learn to explain your position and if someone else sees things differently they have a right to there opinion and preference. Move on.

[DaveyJoe]

Originally Posted by HD Goofnut

If you can't see the massive green shift in the above shots then you are simply choosing to ignore them. If that's the case it is you who is being condescending.

I was viewing the screenshots on my personal computer which is not properly calibrated and is used for gaming, writing, and viewing scooter fails on youtube. Now that I'm at work I have access to better equipment.

Here are the vectorscope results of the three Criterion caps:







None of which suggest a massive green shift to me.

[Mr Kite]

No one I am certain is wanting to offend anyone but we ( me very much included ) have a love for film that allows our passion to become to much to the fore front of conversation, then things just boil over.

Looking at the Grabs again, I will I think not be disappointed with my choice of the Criterion version.........neither would I have been with the German version, so as we have no point of reference I made my choice rightly or wrongly to go with the director on this one. At least in this case we have two excellent choices we can make, Criterion or Subkultur .

[Goremeister100]

Originally Posted by tele1962

No one I am certain is wanting to offend anyone but we ( me very much included ) have a love for film that allows our passion to become to much to the fore front of conversation, then things just boil over.

Looking at the Grabs again, I will I think not be disappointed with my choice of the Criterion version.........neither would I have been with the German version, so as we have no point of reference I made my choice rightly or wrongly to go with the director on this one. At least in this case we have two excellent choices we can make, Criterion or Subkultur .

Well said and nuff said on the subject. Be happy with what you have. Bottom line.

[Braktastic]

Originally Posted by Oscar Rothman

I've heard nothing but great things about Criterion transfers from various professional critics. They all agree that it looks fantastic.

Ah, the battle cry of those who can't, or won't think for themselves.

[captainjoe]

I'm not seeing a green shift either except for the third example in the cafeteria but that makes complete sense since those are most likely fluorescent bulbs. If you've ever worked in a film lighting department (which I have) you'd understand these are accurate color temperatures.

[HD Goofnut]

Originally Posted by captainjoe

I'm not seeing a green shift either except for the third example in the cafeteria but that makes complete sense since those are most likely fluorescent bulbs. If you've ever worked in a film lighting department (which I have) you'd understand these are accurate color temperatures.

Nope. I work with a guy who's worked on several films and is now a film/video instructor full time. None of his florescent lighting looks green. I also work in a building with every type of florescent bulb known to man and none of them emit a green glow or reflection.

[captainjoe]

Originally Posted by HD Goofnut

Nope. I work with a guy who's worked on several films and is now a film/video instructor full time. None of his florescent lighting looks green. I also work in a building with every type of florescent bulb known to man and none of them emit a green glow or reflection.

http://www.creativehat.com/Filmmaking/a040601a.htm

Yes they do... You can correct it or decide to leave it as is.

[tenia]

Originally Posted by Goremeister100

The Subkultur has more detail. In that first screenshot with the van I could actually read what's on the sign over the pharmacy (Marc N. BUI Pharmacienne). On the CRITERION, I can't. The German BD also has more pleasing colors while the CRITERION is drab and lifeless.

I haven't seen the Subkultur, only the Criterion (and unfortunately never gave a spin to the Second Sight I bought a year ago), but looking at the screenshot you're refering at, I'm not sure the Subkultur has more detail, but rather think that this impression of increased details comes from the difference in contrast and color scheme.

Look at the wall where it's written No Parking for instance. You can better make the delineation between the bricks but it's also there on the Criterion, but since the color scheme is duller, the blacks between the bricks is duller making the delineation harder to see, thus the impression is better / lesser detail.

To me, it thus looks more to a side effect of contrast boosting on the Subkultur, the same than you'd find on Criterion's Harakiri for instance.

(just my 2 cents of course)

Anyway.
After watching the Criterion, god it does look very dull.

Originally Posted by Braktastic

Ah, the battle cry of those who can't, or won't think for themselves.

Criterion has their share of failed releases, but it always seemed to me quite a low number to me (at least on BD, because on DVD, a lot of their early releases were technically debatable to say the least).

[DaveyJoe]

I decided to compare the flesh tones of each release using the screen cap of the assassin standing in front of the fire. Using a vectorscope you can judge accurate flesh tones by the pink flesh-tone line at 11 o'clock. Accurate flesh tones for a Caucasian will be on that line near the bottom. This works for all people, the flesh tone for everybody is actually the same hue, the only difference is saturation, so a person with darker skin should still be on the flesh tone line, just a little further away from the center. I crop the image so that the vectorscope is only reading the skin of the actor.

Anyway, here are the results, with the Criterion being first:





You'll see that the Criterion is actually a little bit closer to the flesh-tone line, and therefore, more accurate, but not by much, and the Subkultur has much more saturation, possibly too much for a Caucasian.

I like the vectorscope because it's objective. I think we got used to the numerous DVD releases that had a magenta push and high saturation, and when we see BluRay releases that go in a different direction, we feel that they are wrong. So far the vectorscope has demonstrated that the Criterion does not have a green push, and that skin tones are pretty similar in both releases, with the major difference being in saturation.

Another interesting tidbit is that the highlights in the fire on the Subkultur are not broadcast safe, meaning, if Subkultur were to air their transfer on American television, they could be fined by the FCC for being too bright.

[Eny-]

Actually, by my calculations, the Criterion version has the most realistic whites and purples and I took into consideration the head blow-up scene.

[Show spoiler]Seriously, we are all enthusiasts here but isn't this going too far? It's just a blu-ray movie of Scanners

[DaveyJoe]

Originally Posted by Eny-

[Show spoiler]Seriously, we are all enthusiasts here but isn't this going too far? It's just a blu-ray movie of Scanners

It really wasn't any trouble for me, I'm a video editor with access to software, I just import the caps and open the vectorscope. Usually with these discussions people look at screen caps and go with what they feel is right. I thought it would be interesting to use an objective tool to dispel certain myths, like the Criterion BD having a green tint.

[Eny-]

Originally Posted by DaveyJoe

It really wasn't any trouble for me, I'm a video editor with access to software, I just import the caps and open the vectorscope. Usually with these discussions people look at screen caps and go with what they feel is right. I thought it would be interesting to use an objective tool to dispel certain myths, like the Criterion BD having a green tint.

I think that's fascinating really. Never thought of that, so thank you.

It just feels that people spend more time here discussing about these little details than actually watching the movie.

Criterion has a director approved transfer. That is good enough for me.

[TucoStrangelove]

I really enjoyed watching the criterion transfer! Especially the lab scene with the green tint. It really worked for me. Also, a kinda weird but true story, I switched the black DVD case with a green one way back when I first bought it I think I may have some kinda psychic power or something

[Kentai]

Originally Posted by DaveyJoe

You'll see that the Criterion is actually a little bit closer to the flesh-tone line, and therefore, more accurate, but not by much, and the Subkultur has much more saturation, possibly too much for a Caucasian.

Except we're talking about a scene where a guy is standing in front of open flames. That WOULD be heavily saturated due to the lighting conditions, and would potentially throw off flesh tones whilst still being an accurate representation of whatever was shot in-camera. (Unless I'm confusing the scene - it's THIS ONE, right?)

I do otherwise agree with you - the Criterion master doesn't have a green push, the one scene of the hero looking down at a computer screen aside. It's more than it's toned down the reds, which has left flesh tones looking dull and desaturated compared to the Subkultur release. I do think the highs have been subtly shifted towards blue just so it doesn't look entirely gray, but that's a subtle difference, really. The Criterion version isn't "innacurate" from a calibration standpoint... it's just aesthetically ugly and historically revisionist. Being technically sound and digitally revisionist aren't mutually exclusive.

In any case, compare the flesh tones on a more normally lit scene and you'll likely see that the Criterion release has a far thinner spread; the flesh tones will be "accurate" insofar as the RGB values all check out, they'll just be very thin and shallow in terms of saturation.

Heck, check that shot of Stephen Lack looking at the computer monitor - everyone seems to think that shot isn't green, but I'm sure the vecterscope will tell them where to stick it.

(This is also assuming you're using screenshots, and that all of them were taken in a consistent manner. BT.601/BT.709 and 16-235/0-255 will throw measurements off unless they're made consistent throughout. Not to say that is an issue - but it's something to be mindful of when making A/B comparisons.)

Another interesting tidbit is that the highlights in the fire on the Subkultur are not broadcast safe, meaning, if Subkultur were to air their transfer on American television, they could be fined by the FCC for being too bright.

Yup, the FCC could do just that. But a 1080p 23.98 protection master would never go to a broadcaster. Broadcast Safe levels have nothing to do with Blu-ray authoring, and with that being a callback to the days when analogue signals meant video data could leak into the audio, there's really no need for IRE-100 to be the maximum voltage allowed on home video.

[DaveyJoe]

Originally Posted by Kentai

Except we're talking about a scene where a guy is standing in front of open flames. That WOULD be heavily saturated due to the lighting conditions, and would potentially throw off flesh tones whilst still being an accurate representation of whatever was shot in-camera. (Unless I'm confusing the scene - it's THIS ONE, right?)

Yeah, that could explain the saturation levels. A quick glance at the Revok closeup shows both releases to have the same hue, with the Criterion being close to the center due to lower saturation. Unfortunately there aren't a lot of caps focusing on actors to do more testing with.

Originally Posted by Kentai

I do otherwise agree with you - the Criterion master doesn't have a green push, the one scene of the hero looking down at a computer screen aside. It's more than it's toned down the reds, which has left flesh tones looking dull and desaturated compared to the Subkultur release. I do think the highs have been subtly shifted towards blue just so it doesn't look entirely gray, but that's a subtle difference, really. The Criterion version isn't "innacurate" from a calibration standpoint... it's just aesthetically ugly and historically revisionist. Being technically sound and digitally revisionist aren't mutually exclusive.

Aesthetically ugly is subjective, all though I agree it's very possible, and perhaps even likely that Cronenberg changed the look of certain scenes, considering he did not use a reference print. There's nothing wrong with preferring the look of the Subkultur(or Criterion) release, I just have an issue with people using screen caps to push a certain perspective as fact and to spread misconceptions like the green push thing. I'm not sure about the highs being pushed towards blue, we could always break out the RGB parade if we wanted to have some real fun.

Originally Posted by Kentai

(This is also assuming you're using screenshots, and that all of them were taken in a consistent manner. BT.601/BT.709 and 16-235/0-255 will throw measurements off unless they're made consistent throughout. Not to say that is an issue - but it's something to be mindful of when making A/B comparisons.)

I'm using the screen caps posted on the capsaholic site that was linked earlier. I haven't personally captured anything.

Originally Posted by Kentai

Yup, the FCC could do just that. But a 1080p 23.98 protection master would never go to a broadcaster. Broadcast Safe levels have nothing to do with Blu-ray authoring, and with that being a callback to the days when analogue signals meant video data could leak into the audio, there's really no need for IRE-100 to be the maximum voltage allowed on home video.

Yeah, I just thought that was interesting, because the blown out highs in the Subkultur release really bother me. I know it's not an issue for everybody, but I personally find them very distracting and harsh to look at.

[mdonovan]

Why is this thread still alive ... The criterion release looks fantastic ... But slightly different from the original print in terms of color. Detail is better than on any other release.

/Thread

[manitou]

Originally Posted by mdonovan

Why is this thread still alive ... The criterion release looks fantastic ... But slightly different from the original print in terms of color. Detail is better than on any other release.

/Thread

It's alive! It's alive because this is the Scanner Wars of 2014.
It's alive because there are people who disagree with you that it looks great.
And I guess we are bored enough to keep it going.
I was just looking at screen cap comparisons of another Criterion release: Shohei Imamura's Vengeance is Mine. Comparing it to the Masters of Cinema release. Almost every single cap shows more contrast in the Criterion release. Overall, the Criterion release looks healthier (and miles better than any of the caps I've seen on Scanners). The MoC looks flatter, but only by comparison. My point is, I am sure most people would prefer the Criterion in this case. But for the reason opposite of why they prefer the Criterion image on Scanners. Criterion has put out the flatter image on Scanners (by a mile), and people prefer it.
This kind of makes me feel there is blind devotion to Criterion.

[I KEEL YOU]

Originally Posted by manitou

I was just looking at screen cap comparisons of another Criterion release: Shohei Imamura's Vengeance is Mine. Comparing it to the Masters of Cinema release. Almost every single cap shows more contrast in the Criterion release. Overall, the Criterion release looks healthier (and miles better than any of the caps I've seen on Scanners). The MoC looks flatter, but only by comparison. My point is, I am sure most people would prefer the Criterion in this case. But for the reason opposite of why they prefer the Criterion image on Scanners. Criterion has put out the flatter image on Scanners (by a mile), and people prefer it.
This kind of makes me feel there is blind devotion to Criterion.

I was thinking the exact same thing when I saw those caps on DVDbeaver yesterday!! Very good comparison between the Scanners and Vengeance is Mine releases. Except in that release, the aspect ratio is a much bigger issue as well. But aspect ratio issue aside, the Eureka release of Vengeance is Mine looks a lot like Criterion's Scanners release with its low contrast and greener appearance. Whereas the Criterion release looks more like the Subkultur release of Scanners, and I prefer the Criterion way more.

But like you said, you have Criterion extremists defending every single one of their releases no matter what: If the contrast is low, it's supposed to look like that. If the contrast is high, it's supposed to look like that. If it leans to a particular color in terms of tint, it's supposed to look like that.

[mrpink134]

Originally Posted by mdonovan

Why is this thread still alive ... The criterion release looks fantastic ... But slightly different from the original print in terms of color. Detail is better than on any other release.

/Thread

I'm in the same boat as you, I think looks great. The biggest problem is that screen shot experts like to nit pick things to death. I'm very happy with this release and it's the best version out there.