Star Wars Wars the UOT Strikes Back and OTHER PEZ dispensers

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by shelldweller

That´s just the way I feel. In the last hours on this thread it finally has become clear that most bashers just don´t get Star Wars and what it´s about. In the end you can´t make them.

Let me see if I can explain this better, since you don't seem to be getting it.

(It may not seem like it at first, but the following IS on topic and related to the discussion at hand)...

I remember an episode of 'The Cosby Show' from later in the series where Vanessa has gotten engaged to man that she has been dating (who from what I recall was fairly older than her) named Dabnis. She reveals to her parents that she is engaged to be married (and while she is technically 'old enough' legally, she wasn't quite a true 'adult' yet), and they are shocked both to how sudden and out of the blue that this seems, and that they hadn't even heard of him before or had any idea that she was in a relationship.

Later in the episode, they meet him, and he is a very nice, polite gentleman... someone that they have no reason not to approve of, but they are still frustrated over the situation and how they found out. Heathcliff (Bill Cosby's character), has a conversation with Dabnis, and asks him what his favorite food is. Dabnis says he enjoys a good steak. So, Heathcliff goes on to describe a great steak dinner with all the trimmings, Dabnis is agreeing with him about how good it all sounds... and then Heathcliff goes on to say something like, "now imagine that I go outside and grab a dirty lid off of a garbage can, put the steak dinner on it, and present it to you that way." (That's not the exact quote, but it's the same message). And he says that that's metaphorically how Dabnis was presented to them as Vanessa's fiance'.... on a dirty garbage can lid... and that it's in the presentation.



I think that analogy really describes how many of us on this side of the fence view the prequels. I "get" what they are about. I "get" what the symbolism is supposed to be. I "get" what Lucas was trying to achieve. But in the end,
it's the presentation that was poor. The acting was bad (especially that Episode II love story stuff). Characters were not well developed. Backstory and plot points are tossed at us hap-hazardly. The underlying message and symbolism, while nice to an extent and perhaps well intentioned, doesn't make up for the crappy presentation.

Saying that the people who have issues with the PT are not fans or saying that they don't "get" what Star Wars is all about is like saying that someone who refuses to eat steak off of a dirty garbage can lid is somebody who just hates and refuses to eat steak period. And that's just NOT accurate at all.

[El_Jay]

Originally Posted by shelldweller

But don´t you find it a little strange to consider yourself a fan of something that you don´t like the half of?

Don't you think it would be a little strange, some might say even fanatical to like something simply because you're a fan of something related, regardless of it's own individual merits?

Are people forced to like Alien Vs Predator and sequels because Ridley Scott and James Cameron's movies were good? Should I blindly love Freddy vs Jason because Nightmare On Elm Street was a ground-breaking horror movie?

Do I need to exclude myself from being a fan of something if I don't love every single thing ever to come out of the IP?

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by shelldweller

If you think so, go ahead and think so. I can´t change that.
But don´t you find it a little strange to consider yourself a fan of something that you don´t like the half of?

Considering that the "half" in question came in long after the fact of what (for over 20 years) had previously been the "whole", and for many people it just wasn't done nearly as well and didn't hold up by comparison, then no, I don't think it's weird. Blind acceptance shouldn't be a requirement.

[El_Jay]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

I think that analogy really describes how many of us on this side of the fence view the prequels. I "get" what they are about. I "get" what the symbolism is supposed to be. I "get" what Lucas was trying to achieve. But in the end,
it's the presentation that was poor. The acting was bad (especially that Episode II love story stuff). Characters were not well developed. Backstory and plot points are tossed at us hap-hazardly. The underlying message and symbolism, while nice to an extent and perhaps well intentioned, doesn't make up for the crappy presentation.

Saying that the people who have issues with the PT are not fans or saying that they don't "get" what Star Wars is all about is like saying that someone who refuses to eat steak off of a dirty garbage can lid is somebody who just hates and refuses to eat steak period. And that's just NOT accurate at all.

Beautiful.

I didn't know a post containing the phrase "eating steak off a dirty garbage lid" could hammer the point home like that. Well done. Perfectly explained.

[blonde_devil]

would it help if i said both trilogies sucked? at least then everyone can focus on hating just one person and stop arguing with each other. I actually like both(there is room for improvement in all of them) but if it makes all fans come together as one, i will make the sacrifice.

besides, if you strike me down i will become more powerful.......

[octagon]

Originally Posted by shelldweller

But don´t you find it a little strange to consider yourself a fan of something that you don´t like the half of?

No. I became a Star Wars fan the second that star destroyer filled the screen in pursuit of the blockade runner and it's going to take more than a couple crappy movies to change that (though granted, Jedi and TPM definitely tried).

[42041]

Originally Posted by shelldweller

But don´t you find it a little strange to consider yourself a fan of something that you don´t like the half of?

The original Star Wars trilogy is perfectly self-contained. What I find a little strange is your fanboy guilt-tripping... I'll evaluate the films on their own merits, regardless of their place in this alleged "saga".

[El_Jay]

Originally Posted by blonde_devil

would it help if i said both trilogies sucked? at least then everyone can focus on hating just one person and stop arguing with each other. I actually like both(there is room for improvement in all of them) but if it makes all fans come together as one, i will make the sacrifice.

besides, if you strike me down i will become more powerful.......

Naw, I have no problem with that. I know plenty of people who can't stand Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, any sort of sci-fi or fantasy.

I don't have a problem with people liking or not liking either of the trilogies. I have a problem with people immaturely calling other people out, claiming they aren't "real fans", don't "get it", and generally having an air of condescending arrogance towards other people because they don't share the same views on this IP.

I'm sure people could try and pick apart Empire Strikes Back, which I personally think is the best SW movie by about a million miles... I wouldn't feel the need to defend it like some type of vicious attack dog reactionary. They are welcome to their opinion, just as I am.

I don't like the idea that someone should blindly accept something just because of who it comes from, or they feel like they are betraying someone or something. You can always maintain healthy skepticism without being a cynic.

[shelldweller]

Originally Posted by Cowboy

So how did the cave communicate with it?

It didn´t! Yoda communicates with the force which is everywhere, even in the cave.

Originally Posted by El_Jay

Don't you think it would be a little strange, some might say even fanatical to like something simply because you're a fan of something related, regardless of it's own individual merits?

Are people forced to like Alien Vs Predator and sequels because Ridley Scott and James Cameron's movies were good? Should I blindly love Freddy vs Jason because Nightmare On Elm Street was a ground-breaking horror movie?

Do I need to exclude myself from being a fan of something if I don't love every single thing ever to come out of the IP?

Ok, where to start?

1. People who like Star Wars don´t like it because they have to but because of what it is.
2. The Alien series wasn´t made by one person but by several. I love the first one and I think the 2nd sucks. But I don´t run around telling people that I´m a big fan of the franchise when I just loved the first and liked two other.

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

Considering that the "half" in question came in long after the fact of what (for over 20 years) had previously been the "whole", and for many people it just wasn't done nearly as well and didn't hold up by comparison, then no, I don't think it's weird. Blind acceptance shouldn't be a requirement.

It hasn´t been "the whole" since 1981. Nobody accepts something blindly. Did it ever occour to you that Lucas likes his movies and therefore there could be some people around who also see what´s so great about them. It´s not that he didn´t accomplish anything he intended to do.

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

Let me see if I can explain this better, since you don't seem to be getting it.

(It may not seem like it at first, but the following IS on topic and related to the discussion at hand)...

I remember an episode of 'The Cosby Show' from later in the series where Vanessa has gotten engaged to man that she has been dating (who from what I recall was fairly older than her) named Dabnis. She reveals to her parents that she is engaged to be married (and while she is technically 'old enough' legally, she wasn't quite a true 'adult' yet), and they are shocked both to how sudden and out of the blue that this seems, and that they hadn't even heard of him before or had any idea that she was in a relationship.

Later in the episode, they meet him, and he is a very nice, polite gentleman... someone that they have no reason not to approve of, but they are still frustrated over the situation and how they found out. Heathcliff (Bill Cosby's character), has a conversation with Dabnis, and asks him what his favorite food is. Dabnis says he enjoys a good steak. So, Heathcliff goes on to describe a great steak dinner with all the trimmings, Dabnis is agreeing with him about how good it all sounds... and then Heathcliff goes on to say something like, "now imagine that I go outside and grab a dirty lid off of a garbage can, put the steak dinner on it, and present it to you that way." (That's not the exact quote, but it's the same message). And he says that that's metaphorically how Dabnis was presented to them as Vanessa's fiance'.... on a dirty garbage can lid... and that it's in the presentation.



I think that analogy really describes how many of us on this side of the fence view the prequels. I "get" what they are about. I "get" what the symbolism is supposed to be. I "get" what Lucas was trying to achieve. But in the end,
it's the presentation that was poor. The acting was bad (especially that Episode II love story stuff). Characters were not well developed. Backstory and plot points are tossed at us hap-hazardly. The underlying message and symbolism, while nice to an extent and perhaps well intentioned, doesn't make up for the crappy presentation.

Saying that the people who have issues with the PT are not fans or saying that they don't "get" what Star Wars is all about is like saying that someone who refuses to eat steak off of a dirty garbage can lid is somebody who just hates and refuses to eat steak period. And that's just NOT accurate at all.

I know what you mean. But really, I´m not trying to convince you to like the movies.

[Matty_J]

Originally Posted by El_Jay

Let's try a little experiment here. I want to determine whether age is the determining criteria for who likes what better. It makes sense for people to prefer what they've grown up with, what they've always known, so maybe this will help people understand where the other side is coming from.

I'll go first. I am 28, and I vastly prefer the original Star Wars trilogy.

I'm 37 and also prefer the original trilogy. I really wished Lucas had made the third trilogy instead of backpedaling to make the first.

[shelldweller]

Originally Posted by blonde_devil

would it help if i said both trilogies sucked? at least then everyone can focus on hating just one person and stop arguing with each other. I actually like both(there is room for improvement in all of them) but if it makes all fans come together as one, i will make the sacrifice.

besides, if you strike me down i will become more powerful.......

If you said that I would totally understand. At least the opinion would make some sense to me. But again I (or anyone around here, I think) am not trying to convince somebody to like something he doesn´t. It´s the constant bashing that´s irritating.

[Jay444]

Originally Posted by El_Jay

Let's try a little experiment here. I want to determine whether age is the determining criteria for who likes what better. It makes sense for people to prefer what they've grown up with, what they've always known, so maybe this will help people understand where the other side is coming from.

I'll go first. I am 28, and I vastly prefer the original Star Wars trilogy.

I am 33 and love the OT. I enjoy the hell out of two of the three PT films (AOTC is the odd man out, I just found it horrible). TPM and ROTS were fine films. TPM stands perfectly on its own and ROTS is exactly what I wanted from the PT. One film missing the mark doesn't ruin the whole thing for me though. ATOC had its moments, i.e. anytime Obi Wan is onscreen I felt MUCH more involved in the film which is a credit to a fine actor.

The OT is a perfect trilogy. You have a film that sets up the universe and characters, a second act that brings the drama to new heights, and finale that wraps up everything perfectly. Excellent story telling from beginning to end. Are there flaws? Yes, we call them Ewoks. But even that is a minor issue.

Also, (to keep this more or less focused on the blu rays) I am curious as to what everyone is paying to buy the Complete Saga? I preordered from deepdiscount for 65 and some change. Not bad I think!

[shelldweller]

Originally Posted by El_Jay

Let's try a little experiment here. I want to determine whether age is the determining criteria for who likes what better. It makes sense for people to prefer what they've grown up with, what they've always known, so maybe this will help people understand where the other side is coming from.

I'll go first. I am 28, and I vastly prefer the original Star Wars trilogy.

I´m over thirty and I like all six Episodes about the same. Although the "Prequels" really added more depth to the whole saga.

[Jay444]

Originally Posted by shelldweller

But don´t you find it a little strange to consider yourself a fan of something that you don´t like the half of?

Most divisive comment in the thread yet! LOL. Wow, dude. Just wow.

[El_Jay]

Originally Posted by shelldweller

Ok, where to start?

1. People who like Star Wars don´t like it because they have to but because of what it is.
2. The Alien series wasn´t made by one person but by several. I love the first one and I think the 2nd sucks. But I don´t run around telling people that I´m a big fan of the franchise when I just loved the first and liked two other.

1. Blanket generalizations are always a bad idea. Always. Claiming you alone know the motivations of a group of people is completely fallacious. Setting that aside, that statement is vague and makes little sense. I like "what it is" when it comes to the Star Wars universe, but if Uwe Boll made a Star Wars movie it would change the essence of "what it is" and I wouldn't feel any obligation to like it because of what Star Wars is.

2. The Star Wars trilogy was not made by one person. Evidence of this is the film that most regard as the best in the Star Wars canon, Empire Strikes Back, which was not directed by Lucas, but by Irvin Kershner.

What is this obsession with labels, and criteria for determining whether someone "qualifies" as a fan or not? Why make such arbitrary limitations as to say "you can not be a fan of a franchise if you loved 1 movie and not another"?

I have watched the original trilogy for 24 years, I've owned countless, countless pieces of Star Wars merch, I used to watch that Droids cartoon every Saturday morning, then that Ewoks cartoon that came after it. I had Star Wars pyjamas, bedsheets, underwear, I've owned no less than 5 plastic lightsabres, I've owned piles of comics and collectible cards, I've dressed up like a Jedi for Halloween, and I've read (up to a certain point) every piece of literature connected to Star Wars, including the movie adaptation books and even the scripts.

Yet I have to disavow myself as a "fan of the franchise" because I don't think the new films were very good, as films?

Nonsense.

[JasonWard]

Originally Posted by Cowboy

So how did the cave communicate with it?

Actually, midi-chlorian aren't the force. They aren't even a prerequisite for the force. The mystical force never changed. Being attuned with the force has a physical side effect. They are in all living things because all living things are tied into the force, it is just that not all living things manipulate it to their whims.

Qui-Gon is a big proponent of the living force and midi-chlorian. He's trying to quantify it scientifically. Yoda is the opposite, and in the end, the message is once again about balance between the two philosophies. Yoda's gives Luke the ability to save his father and Qui-Gon's gives them the abillity to retain their identities and let the Jedi live on through Luke past death.

[ST2012]

Originally Posted by El_Jay

I'll go first. I am 28, and I vastly prefer the original Star Wars trilogy.

I'm also 28 and I also much prefer the OT.

[JasonWard]

I'm 31 and I prefer the whole thing.

[octagon]

A) I'm 48 and the first two are outstanding, the middle two suck and the last two are disappointing but the good stuff generally outweighs the bad.

B) Preordered the saga in January from Barnes and Noble using a 50% coupon - $44.79 shipping included, call it $47 with tax.

[Cook]

I am 21, and I prefer the OT.