Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by The_Donster

So totally different spin on our current thread, but what is the ideal ping, download and upload for streaming or gaming? I realize with streaming it is based on what your device can handle and your service provides. However, I recently had a kid knocking on my door about a competition internet provider and he kept going on about the ping helping reduce the latency in online gaming. Which doesn’t seem right. Anyone else have any input

Ping times are often, incorrectly, used synonymously with latency:

"Ping in computers actually refers to the signal sent out across the network to another computer, and this other computer then sends its own signal back, which is another ping. The measurement of this round trip then gets referred to as latency."

"While we all want the lowest latency, it is recommended to have less than 75 to 100 milliseconds for a good gaming connection."

https://www.pcgamer.com/what-are-lat...an-for-gaming/

When I run my wired connection speed test, I typically get a Ping result of about 16 ms. I do not play online games over my wireless connection as I play games almost exclusively on my pc.

When I play Diablo 3 and all is working well, my latency times are usually 40-60 ms according to the game itself and the game considers that to be a "green" light. Over 100 ms and it goes yellow; over 300 ms and it is in the red.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by The_Donster

So totally different spin on our current thread, but what is the ideal ping, download and upload for streaming or gaming? I realize with streaming it is based on what your device can handle and your service provides. However, I recently had a kid knocking on my door about a competition internet provider and he kept going on about the ping helping reduce the latency in online gaming. Which doesn’t seem right. Anyone else have any input

The lower the better obviously. 20-25 will probably mean you can react to onscreen action very rapidly. I think the borderline is 100 pings. Anything above that and I think you would be at a huge disadvantage in multiplayer games.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by veritas

I feel like this is a good example of why digital isn't very trustworthy.

This isn't just an apple problem this sort of thing happens all the time where you get a movie at the wrong quality level lose features, extras etc and the studio/ provider either cant or wont help you fix the problem. If we are lucky they fix these things but it really goes to show digital isn't as reliable as physical. I feel like my odds of having a disc go bad (though no fault of my own) is about 1 in 20 years or less but I see various digital problems more then once per quarter. They fix some of those problems but sometimes they just tell you to pound sand and basically rip you off.

I do not know how frequently problems like these actually occur with digital purchases, but having it happen at all would annoy me greatly. Follow that with indifferent customer service that failed to solve the problem, then my annoyance would grow into anger.

I must have control over my purchased content and with discs I have that control. The problem described by Panama Jack is infuriating even if it only happens rarely. It is not something I would tolerate.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Ping times are often, incorrectly, used synonymously with latency:

"Ping in computers actually refers to the signal sent out across the network to another computer, and this other computer then sends its own signal back, which is another ping. The measurement of this round trip then gets referred to as latency."

"While we all want the lowest latency, it is recommended to have less than 75 to 100 milliseconds for a good gaming connection."

Well thanks guys, you knew that Latency affected Gaming but it also plays into Streaming Video. The fast Communication between the Streaming Server is essential. The number one thing that speeds it up.....Hard Wire!

https://www.google.com/search?source...i3.Rcf4fpHIU5k

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Vilya

I do not know how frequently problems like these actually occur with digital purchases, but having it happen at all would annoy me greatly.

Finally got around to watching Dragonslayer (1981) via VUDU and it was fairly detailed but had a look that is hard to describe. It looked like it had thick grain that was frozen and made it irritating to watch. When over I got out the DVD and immediately the better half exclaimed the DVD looked much better. The DVD had a natural film look to it and the detail was almost as good as the streamed version. Audio, no contest, the DVD DD 2.0 using PLiiX Movie was superior to the streamed DD+ 5.1.

Another thing I see on ALL content from VUDU, it appears a frame will freeze every so often. Most people probably would never see it but it annoys the heck out of me. I do not have any video processing engaged in the video chain and use 24Hz from all content that has native 24Hz (23.976Hz). The same titles viewed via Amazon (MA) do not exhibit this problem, at least the last time I looked which was many months ago. Dragonslayer is not a MA title .

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Well thanks guys, you knew that Latency affected Gaming but it also plays into Streaming Video. The fast Communication between the Streaming Server is essential. The number one thing that speeds it up.....Hard Wire!

Low latency is essential to gaming and for that reason I do all of my online gaming on my computer over its wired connection. While gaming, there is a constant two-way conversation going on between the player's computer and the game server. Excessive delays in that conversation manifest as lag and I no can stand lag while gaming. Lag gets you killed!

Streaming is much more one sided; you are just receiving a steady stream of data and a good wireless network delivers that just as well as a wired one.

Many people also game over wireless networks without complaints, so if that is the case, then good for them. The larger point is that we are each capable of determining what type of network meets our needs for streaming and for gaming. For me, wired is for gaming and wireless is for streaming- I get great results with both, generally, assuming that my ISP is working properly and the respective servers are not overwhelmed.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Finally got around to watching Dragonslayer (1981) via VUDU and it was fairly detailed but had a look that is hard to describe. It looked like it had thick grain that was frozen and made it irritating to watch. When over I got out the DVD and immediately the better half exclaimed the DVD looked much better. The DVD had a natural film look to it and the detail was almost as good as the streamed version. Audio, no contest, the DVD DD 2.0 using PLiiX Movie was superior to the streamed DD+ 5.1.

Another thing I see on ALL content from VUDU, it appears a frame will freeze every so often. Most people probably would never see it but it annoys the heck out of me. I do not have any video processing engaged in the video chain and use 24Hz from all content that has native 24Hz (23.976Hz). The same titles viewed via Amazon (MA) do not exhibit this problem, at least the last time I looked which was many months ago. Dragonslayer is not a MA title .

You had to go and mention Dragonslayer, didn't you? Now I have to go watch my dvd of it; I have not seen it in many years- I have always liked it.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Streaming is much more one sided; you are just receiving a steady stream of data and a good wireless network delivers that just as well as a wired one.

Streaming video should not require a packet re-send if the FEC corrects any errors that may have occurred.

I am not a gamer but judging by the special wireless routers available games must have very high burst data rates requirements, yes, no?

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Streaming video should not require a packet re-send if the FEC corrects any errors that may have occurred.

I am not a gamer but judging by the special wireless routers available games must have very high burst data rates requirements, yes, no?

Your question is above my level of nerdom, but I would assume so. I will ask my friend the software engineer the next time we Skype.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Your question is above my level of nerdom, but I would assume so. I will ask my friend the software engineer the next time we Skype.

For streaming it was more or less a confirmation of your statement, meaning that streaming data is pretty much one way unless there is a lot of errors and the client has to request a lot of data (packet) re-sends.

Just did a little reading:

Gaming enthusiasts know that high network latency can mean the difference between winning and losing when competing online. With the Linksys WRT32X Wi-Fi Gaming Router ($299.99), your gaming rig will get all the bandwidth it needs to keep you in the game with minimal lag, thanks to Rivet Networks' Killer Prioritization Engine, which automatically identifies PCs and laptops equipped with Killer Network LAN hardware and gives them priority over other devices on the network.

Now have a little better understanding what all the fuss is about.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

For streaming it was more or less a confirmation of your statement, meaning that streaming data is pretty much one way unless there is a lot of errors and the client has to request a lot of data (packet) re-sends.

Just did a little reading:



Now have a little better understanding what all the fuss is about.

Many routers allow you to assign priorities to the devices on your network, so that's nothing new or unique to Linksys.

[Groot]

If you're that anal about latency you're gonna be PC gaming, not console.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Streaming is much more one sided; you are just receiving a steady stream of data and a good wireless network delivers that just as well as a wired one.

That's what I thought, but with Streaming like Gaming there is a constant communication with the Streaming Server. The Streaming Server sends so many Packets, and if it doesn't get an answer back it will resend those Packets. So the Throughput is affected, and it also has a lot to do with Upload Speeds.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Many routers allow you to assign priorities to the devices on your network, so that's nothing new or unique to Linksys.

Agree, have it set to Off on mine, just thought the name of Killer Prioritization Engine was , just love those marketing folks.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by alchav21

The Streaming Server sends so many Packets, and if it doesn't get an answer back it will resend those Packets. So the Throughput is affected, and it also has a lot to do with Upload Speeds.

Nah, very little need for the client to talk back to the server. Video packets via downlink satellite, cable TV, ATSC are all one way and work quite well because of FEC. Same can be said for CD, DVD, Blu-ray, etc.

[HarcourtMudd]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Streaming video should not require a packet re-send if the FEC corrects any errors that may have occurred.

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

For streaming it was more or less a confirmation of your statement, meaning that streaming data is pretty much one way unless there is a lot of errors and the client has to request a lot of data re-sends.

Originally Posted by alchav21

That's what I thought, but with Streaming like Gaming there is a constant communication with the Streaming Server. The Streaming Server sends so many Packets, and if it doesn't get an answer back it will resend those Packets. So the Throughput is affected, and it also has a lot to do with Upload Speeds.

I thought video streaming (as well as VoiP) was UDP (connectionless - no resends), not TCP, and is not concerned with whether a packet is received or not...? I do not know about gaming, however...

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by HarcourtMudd

I thought video streaming (as well as VoiP) was UDP (connectionless - no resends), not TCP, and is not concerned with whether a packet is received or not...?

That could be, just assumed streaming providers used IPTV methods. My real problem is I don't care enough about streaming to learn all the in's and out's about it. Know of any white papers from Netflix, Amazon, etc.?

[HarcourtMudd]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

That could be, just assumed streaming providers used IPTV methods. My real problem is I don't care enough about streaming to learn all the in's and out's about it. Know of any white papers from Netflix, Amazon, etc.?

Admittedly, my understanding at this technical level is quite pedestrian and high level, but I had read a white paper a while back (which I was able to actually find again):

http://www.cohuhd.com/Files/white_pa...WhitePaper.pdf

It would not shock me to find out that I am completely off-base here, however...

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by HarcourtMudd

I thought video streaming (as well as VoiP) was UDP (connectionless - no resends), not TCP, and is not concerned with whether a packet is received or not...? I do not know about gaming, however...

It appears Netflix and others use something called DASH: Dynamic Adaptive Streaming over HTTP also known as MPEG DASH. MPEG DASH uses the TCP protocol.

"MPEG-DASH is the first adaptive bit-rate HTTP-based streaming solution that is an international standard. MPEG-DASH should not be confused with a transport protocol — the transport protocol that MPEG-DASH uses is TCP."

"DASH is codec-agnostic, which means it can use content encoded with any coding format, such as H.265, H.264, VP9, etc."

"MPEG-DASH is available natively on Android through the ExoPlayer, on Samsung Smart TVs 2012+, LG Smart TV 2012+, Sony TV 2012+, Philips NetTV 4.1+, Panasonic Viera 2013+ and Chromecast. YouTube as well as Netflix already support MPEG-DASH, and different MPEG-DASH players are available."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynami...ming_over_HTTP

and then there is this article that says what you are watching can be gleaned from the TCP/IP headers:

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/0...netflix_https/

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Vilya

It appears Netflix and others use something called DASH: Dynamic Adaptive Streaming over HTTP also known as MPEG DASH. MPEG DASH uses the TCP protocol.

"MPEG-DASH is the first adaptive bit-rate HTTP-based streaming solution that is an international standard. MPEG-DASH should not be confused with a transport protocol — the transport protocol that MPEG-DASH uses is TCP."

"DASH is codec-agnostic, which means it can use content encoded with any coding format, such as H.265, H.264, VP9, etc."

"MPEG-DASH is available natively on Android through the ExoPlayer, on Samsung Smart TVs 2012+, LG Smart TV 2012+, Sony TV 2012+, Philips NetTV 4.1+, Panasonic Viera 2013+ and Chromecast. YouTube as well as Netflix already support MPEG-DASH, and different MPEG-DASH players are available."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynami...ming_over_HTTP

With some EyeIO sauce.