Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

With some EyeIO sauce.

That's all I could find before my geek research limits were exceeded; must return to my video game now.

[HarcourtMudd]

Originally Posted by Vilya

It appears Netflix and others use something called DASH: Dynamic Adaptive Streaming over HTTP also known as MPEG DASH. MPEG DASH uses the TCP protocol.

"MPEG-DASH is the first adaptive bit-rate HTTP-based streaming solution that is an international standard. MPEG-DASH should not be confused with a transport protocol — the transport protocol that MPEG-DASH uses is TCP."

"DASH is codec-agnostic, which means it can use content encoded with any coding format, such as H.265, H.264, VP9, etc."

"MPEG-DASH is available natively on Android through the ExoPlayer, on Samsung Smart TVs 2012+, LG Smart TV 2012+, Sony TV 2012+, Philips NetTV 4.1+, Panasonic Viera 2013+ and Chromecast. YouTube as well as Netflix already support MPEG-DASH, and different MPEG-DASH players are available."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynami...ming_over_HTTP

and then there is this article that says what you are watching can be gleaned from the TCP/IP headers:

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/0...netflix_https/

Thank you

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Vilya

That's all I could find before my geek research limits were exceeded; must return to my video game now.

Hope your ping is good!

[Show spoiler]mine is a bit sore!

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by Vilya

It appears Netflix and others use something called DASH: Dynamic Adaptive Streaming over HTTP also known as MPEG DASH. MPEG DASH uses the TCP protocol.

"MPEG-DASH is the first adaptive bit-rate HTTP-based streaming solution that is an international standard. MPEG-DASH should not be confused with a transport protocol — the transport protocol that MPEG-DASH uses is TCP."

"DASH is codec-agnostic, which means it can use content encoded with any coding format, such as H.265, H.264, VP9, etc."

"MPEG-DASH is available natively on Android through the ExoPlayer, on Samsung Smart TVs 2012+, LG Smart TV 2012+, Sony TV 2012+, Philips NetTV 4.1+, Panasonic Viera 2013+ and Chromecast. YouTube as well as Netflix already support MPEG-DASH, and different MPEG-DASH players are available."

Thanks Vilya, your information makes sense, Adaptive Streaming has to have two way communication. If the Bandwidth and Path are open then the Stream will remain at a high level. I know when my Streaming is interrupeted the Streaming is delayed. So that two way communication has to be at a high level in order for good Streaming results. Im sure that Sony Ultra must use DASH, as well as other 4K Streaming Providers.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by HarcourtMudd

Admittedly, my understanding at this technical level is quite pedestrian and high level, but I had read a white paper a while back (which I was able to actually find again):

This post has several links to references, just click the underlined link.

That paper tends to confirm that streaming can resend a packet(s) at the clients request. Because of error correction that should not happen very often. Using TSReader (Standard) I have watched satellite (AMC-21) feeds go for many hours without a single error. Below is several links to error correction articles. Streaming, optical, magnetic, broadcast, etc. all use some form of error correction. It has been a long time since I read the Red Book but IIRC, CD’s use Reed–Solomon, CRC and Interleaving for error correction. Many years ago we would put black tape wedges on a CD and see which player would play the longest without burping.

Reed–Solomon error correction, Cyclic redundancy check (CRC), Burst error-correcting code (Interleaving) and Forward Error Correction (FEC) (also click (ECC)

It was interesting that article mentioned using a M2TS container for streaming. I believe they are referring to a TS (Transport Stream) containing MPEG content. M2TS is the official wrapper of the BDA and used on Blu-ray and UHD Blu-ray disc. Never saw M2TS used anywhere else.

Comparison of video container formats

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

This post has several links to references, just click the underlined link.

That paper tends to confirm that streaming can resend a packet(s) at the clients request. Because of error correction that should not happen very often. Using TSReader (Standard) I have watched satellite (AMC-21) feeds go for many hours without a single error. Below is several links to error correction articles. Streaming, optical, magnetic, broadcast, etc. all use some form of error correction. It has been a long time since I read the Red Book but IIRC, CD’s use Reed–Solomon, CRC and Interleaving for error correction. Many years ago we would put black tape wedges on a CD and see which player would play the longest without burping.

Reed–Solomon error correction, Cyclic redundancy check (CRC), Burst error-correcting code (Interleaving) and Forward Error Correction (FEC) (also click (ECC)

It was interesting that article mentioned using a M2TS container for streaming. I believe they are referring to a TS (Transport Stream) containing MPEG content. M2TS is the official wrapper of the BDA and used on Blu-ray and UHD Blu-ray disc. Never saw M2TS used anywhere else.

Comparison of video container formats

This thread hasn’t half got technical since you arrived Wendell!

[alchav21]

This Thread has gotten very Technical, but the bottom line is Wired or Wireless. I think with the new information, and two way communication with Latency Wired has to be the best connection. Streaming Service Providers use Adaptive Streaming to provide the best Video Quality for the available Bandwidth. So if your Bandwidth is Low or High, you will get the best Video Quality according to your Bandwidth, and this has to do with two way communication.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by alchav21

This Thread has gotten very Technical, but the bottom line is Wired or Wireless.

Actually you should refrain from trying to post in order to look like a technical person, it should be obvious to almost everyone you are not. If you do not mind folks laughing at you then continue posting your BS. In your mind you have a wired connection so I must be superior to all those poor wireless folks. A tech person knows were, when and how to use BOTH and how to test their performance, no guess work is involved.

Adaptive streaming is used because of how the internet works, has nothing to do with high quality streams. IF (a very big IF) folks were willing to wait for a select stream to start and IF a constant high data rate from the server could be guaranteed then there would be no need for adaptive streaming. As is, a selected stream starts at very low quality and changes to an ever higher quality as the client’s buffer and memory fills. At some point the stream should reach the maximum quality available for that stream. If the data rate from the server degrades then the stream will adapt down in quality in order to keep playing. The other option is to stop the stream and load the buffers again.

Physical disc do not have the problems of unknown data delivery so adaptive streaming IS NOT necessary.

[Penton-Man]

batten down the hatches Wendell, Florence is approaching!

[Steedeel]

I hope you guys stay safe.

[Vilya]

I certainly hope you, your family, and your friends escape Florence's wrath.

Stay safe, stay dry, and secure those discs!

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

batten down the hatches Wendell, Florence is approaching!

Hey Penton, long time no talk. Florence is forecast to pass to the east of us so some wind and rain in the mountains but damage here should be minimal. Still mountain biking?

Do you know if paidgeek is still working for Sony? Do you know what Stacey Spears is up to these days?

EDIT: Just checked Linkedin and Stacey appears to still be with RED Digital Cinema.

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Actually you should refrain from trying to post in order to look like a technical person, it should be obvious to almost everyone you are not. If you do not mind folks laughing at you then continue posting your BS. In your mind you have a wired connection so I must be superior to all those poor wireless folks. A tech person knows were, when and how to use BOTH and how to test their performance, no guess work is involved.

Nobody wants to be superior except you with all your Technical Jargon, and trying to act like you know everything. You try and discredit people in any way you can including calling stores. Yes, I'm a Wired Guy and everyone knows it, this goes back working in the Industry. I have just felt that a Wired Connection is best to Stream to your UHD TV, especially going forward with the increase in Bitrates and Bandwidth.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by alchav21

I have just felt that a Wired Connection is best to Stream to your UHD TV, especially going forward with the increase in Bitrates and Bandwidth.

What increase in bitrates? Streaming content providers have been offering at most 16 Mbps for their 4K streams for at least the last 2-3 years. I have not found any articles that suggest that any of them are planning to raise their bitrates- not one.

ISPs raise bandwidth in those select markets that they deem profitable, but that is likely, in part, to accommodate families where each person streams something different simultaneously to multiple devices.

You are fond of using jargon yourself, except in your case you often use it incorrectly.

Honestly, no one, to quote an illustrious member of these forums, gives "zero shits" about what type of network you use- especially after telling us every chance you get. Streaming 4K content can be achieved reliably and with maximum benefit from either a wired or a wireless network. It's a personal choice that each of us are capable of making for ourselves.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Nobody wants to be superior except you with all your Technical Jargon, and trying to act like you know everything.

More . You try to talk the talk but you can't walk the walk.

As to bitrate increase, just more of your BS. Have already said this but will say it again, Netflix started UHD (House of Cards) at 16Mbps and after 4-½ years they remain at 16Mbps for UHD streams. Netflix has reduced some of their HD streams down to 2.85Mbps.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Honestly, no one, to quote an illustrious member of these forums, gives "zero shits" about what type of network you use- especially after telling us every chance you get.

I have been involved in many format/hardware wars (mostly pro stuff) but never saw anyone so stuck on a couple of points as alchav21. When presented with irrefutable facts most folks shut up and stop posting their BS.

[SleazyForWeasley]

One of the best reasons to support physical media is that what you buy you own until you get rid of it. As one user found out recently, a studio decided to pull a handful of movies he bought via iTunes and he no longer has access to his purchases.
Support physical media!
https://twitter.com/drandersgs/statu...70646243414016

[Ender14]

Originally Posted by SleazyForWeasley

One of the best reasons to support physical media is that what you buy you own until you get rid of it. As one user found out recently, a studio decided to pull a handful of movies he bought via iTunes and he no longer has access to his purchases.
Support physical media!
https://twitter.com/drandersgs/statu...70646243414016

Agree 100%.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Hey Penton, long time no talk. Florence is forecast to pass to the east of us so some wind and rain in the mountains but damage here should be minimal. Still mountain biking?

Do you know if paidgeek is still working for Sony? Do you know what Stacey Spears is up to these days?

EDIT: Just checked Linkedin and Stacey appears to still be with RED Digital Cinema.

Looks like Florence veered south of you last night, so I think that’s even better for you if I correctly remember where you live. With regards to mountain biking, definitely, as I previously noted on the HDR Discussion thread with visuals, I am first and foremost a man of Science ….

Runnin' With Sasquatch: Mountain Biking - Funny Jack Link's Beef Jerky TV Commercial - YouTube

Yes, to paid, he bounces from one division to another within Sony. He has some input in the latest issue of the SMPTE journal - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...e#post15471498 (not specifically on 2094-40 though)

P.S.
Stacey is one of the few in Red land who acknowledges the value of HDR, although others are finally catching on now…. https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...d#post15501548

[veritas]

https://www.slashgear.com/apple-remo...rary-12545538/

This does seem like a pretty good example of why increasing the number of store fronts you can watch your movies at does not necessarily improve the safety of your digital library. All it really takes is a rights holder pulling his permission and poof a portion of your collections gone.

I have seen changes in one service propagate throughout movies anywhere to affect the other providers and support for these providers is almost none existent.