Star Wars Wars the UOT Strikes Back and OTHER PEZ dispensers

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by P@t_Mtl

You see that is just not fair at all! Everyone can change their mind, even more so as you become older, your views change, your opinion changes, your taste changes. Even you I am sure no longer act and think as you once were when you were 17 or 27.....

What is not fair is that you can change your mind with no consequences, your entire life is not being recorded, your every words not being send back at you 20 years later. Imagine that everything you said when you were 20 could now be used against you

While people can and do change over the years, once they get into a certain point of adulthood, generally speaking the changes tend to be fewer and far between.

It's not like Lucas was a silly teenager or a wild partier in his early 20s in 1988. He was in his mid 40s. If you read the info in that link I provided, you will see that he made what seems to have been a very well thought out and passionate speech on the matter. More so than anything else (even the other stuff I posted earlier), this is probably his biggest contradiction of all. And it's a doosey.


But regardless, as I said before, if the guy who just come out and state that he changed his mind about these things, I could at least give him some credit for doing so. Thus far he has done nothing of the sort to my knowledge.

[P@t_Mtl]

Originally Posted by bboisvert

Which, actually, is all the more reason not to go back and change works of art you created in your 30s when you're in your 60s.

Aldous Huxley wrote this in a forward to a later edition of Brave New World:

Chronic remorse, as all the moralists are agreed, is a most undesirable sentiment. If you have behaved badly, repent, make what amends you can and address yourself to the task of behaving better next time. On no account brood over your wrongdoing. Rolling in the muck is not the best way of getting clean.

Art also has its morality, and many of the rules of this morality are the same as, or at least analogous to, the rules of ordinary ethics. Remorse, for example, is as undesirable in relation to our bad art as it is in relation to our bad behavior. The badness should be hunted out, acknowledged and, if possible, avoided in the future. To pore over the literary shortcomings of twenty years ago, to attempt to patch a faulty work into the perfection it missed at its first execution, to spend one's middle age in trying to mend the artistic sins committed and bequeathed by that different person who was oneself in youth-all this is surely vain and futile. And that is why this new Brave New World is the same as the old one. Its defects as a work of art are considerable; but in order to correct them I should have to rewrite the book-and in the process of rewriting, as an older, other person, I should probably get rid not only of some of the faults of the story, but also of such merits as it originally possessed. And so, resisting the temptation to wallow in artistic remorse, I prefer to leave both well and ill alone and to think about something else.

True words but it was still his rights to make the changes. Granted if he does make the change he must now endure the critics but I still feel it's not really fair at all but that just me. I just feel he can make the changes to his movies as he wish, you can disagre of course but you can't denie him the right to make the changes if he feel that what he made 30 years ago no longer please him. Of course the main trouble is that he now only wish to release only the version he want's which is the main problem for so many. Even there I agree with him however if that is what he wish to do.

[Gaius Marius]

I must say that I really like Dynamo of Eternia's posts.

His reasons as to why the Prequels are flawed and not as 'magic' as the OT are well thought out, and I agree with his ideas of how they could have been better with a little more planning (I like the idea of Qui-Gon being the one that orders the clones).

I do, however, like TPM and RotS (AotC has about 30 minutes of watchable footage tops). It just feels like the PT is more disjointed than the OT. I get that there is a deeper story (it comes out much better in the Clone Wars series - which I really enjoy!), it just feels like the PT is more of a second draft than a finished product, like it needed a few more editing steps to reach the point where it needed to be.

On the creative process, I write in my free time, so I understand how it works. You change your mind, figure out better ways to develop the story, characters, etc... However, having a plan is paramount. Without a plan, you run into corners and dig holes. You can change the plan, as long you have a plan and it is consistent with what has come before (ie the OT). It definately feels like the PT had a rough plan, but not a solid one.

Granted, the PT did some things right. I love the Darth Maul/Obi-Wan/Qui-Gon duel (Duel of the Fates is my second favorite SW track behind the Imperial March), and feel that it is the best lightsaber duel in all six movies. I also like seeing all of the Jedi running around what they were capable of (the Clone Wars series is also really good for this!), as well as the formation of the Empire and 'prototype' technology that would later morph into familiar technology (Star Destroyers, for example).

I am 31, and a Star Wars fan. I grew up watching the OT and prefer that one to the PT. Overall, I enjoy the PT (warts and all), but feel that there is room for improvement. That does not make me less of a fan.

We all love some aspect of Star Wars here, none of us is any a 'greater' or 'lesser' fan, we are all fans

I look forward to watching all six movies on BD this September, even with the pink tint that has been applied to all six movies.

[JasonWard]

I found this post interesting so I have decided to comment on it. I hope that is okay.

Originally Posted by Adywan

Still not convinced that he is only concerned about the money? Still think he is only doing it for the fans? Well here's more proof against this:

1 - The Live action TV series. This is on hold for at least 3 years because it isn't financially viable to do it at the moment. If he can't make it cheap enough and make enough profit he isn't going to do it.

This is a rather large oversimplification of the reality of the situation. The problem with the live action series is that they want it to be about fifty times cheaper to produce, not that they want to make fifty times the profit. While profits are good, people at Lucasfilm that are not George Lucas need to be paid, the issue is more complex than that.

The movie business is built on technical revolution after technical revolution, and there are certain redundancies and things the industry is doing entirely for cultural or traditional reasons. If they accomplish their task, not only will be movies like Avatar be made at a quarter the cost, TV will flourish beyond anything we have ever seen.

That said, Lucas wants his endeavors to pay for the themselves and the next project. That's always been the goal and that is pretty much how the company has been run this entire time.

The episodes supposedly run about 50 million a piece, generally speaking from a quote by Lucas. There are supposed to be 16 episodes per season. They have three seasons in shooting draft form. Its cheaper to film as many seasons at once, so lets assume that's the goal.

According to you, Lucas should be willing to sink in 800 million dollars for the sake of art. The fact that he won't, means he is a money grubbing scrooge that hates his fans. In fact, its the opposite. Lucasfilm doesn't have 800 million dollars to sink into as season of a show or anything for that matter at one time and on top of that, if it failed, the company would collapse. Just thinking about this situation a little more clearly shows exactly how rational Lucas is being in this instance. It would cost 2.4 billion dollars to make the series at the price he quoted, which is probably high, but still, look at the costs and even if he's exaggerating a little, it it an astronomical sum.

Originally Posted by Adywan

2 - The original theatrical versions. He stated at CV that the theatrical editions won't be included on this Blu-Ray set because it would cost too much to restore them (even though the restoration to the films was carried out for the Special editions BEFORE any changes were made, so that side of the work has already been done and FOX paid for this and not Lucas). Now he knows he needs to hold something back so a later release is guaranteed to sell. Now, with the 3D versions coming up, he knows that the 3D market is still pretty small so he will need to add something to the 3D Blu-Ray releases to guarantee sales and this will probably be the theatrical versions. Don't forget this is the same guy that originally said that the originals can never be restored because they don't exist any more because they cut the negative up to create the Special Editions. Now we know this isn't true. New negatives were made when the restoration was completed. They are sitting there in the vaults. Each and every films were scanned digitally before the work began on the SE's. Well now all of a sudden he is saying that it's "too expensive" to restore them. So what happened to the lie that they were destroyed? Robert Harris even said to George that he would restore these films for Free, but Lucas said no. So he doesn't really care about the fans there does he? No, he is holding off for when he needs to maximize sales for a product.

How do you see this as an issue of caring about the fans? Should it be an surprise that as a director and an artist, he prefers this version of Star Wars and that's what we're going to get. You make it sound like he was lying to you personally. He is pleasing the fans by releasing the films on Blu-ray and that is nice.

Originally Posted by Adywan

3 - The 3D theatrical releases - Now he is starting with Episode 1 and releasing one film each year from 2012. Now he has gone on record to say that the other films will only be converted to 3D and release IF THE FIRST ONES MAKE ENOUGH MONEY! So, if not enough people go to see the bloody prequels we won't get the rest of the saga. Now is that thinking of his fans and only doing it for the fans? No. It's all about the money. What he is basically saying is "you don't support the 3D films and give me a nice little profit then i'm not giving you any more"

Once again, he has no reason to convert the films to 3D if no one is going to watch them. They have to make enough money to cover distribution, promotion, and regardless of who paid for it, Lucasfilm or Fox, the movie theater and Fox are in it for the money. If they don't make money, why release them? Why continue doing it? The director wants the films watched 1-6, it's not any scam to make you pay for Episode I again. Lets just look at it in a negative light, if Episode I makes a certain amount of money, they can probably calculate how much the rest will make based off that film's performance. It's not that he's hard up for cash and just wants your money, it has to justify the work being done or people will lose out and the industry around it will suffer.

Originally Posted by Adywan

And i'm fed up of all these damn fans that blindly follow everything he has done calling any fan with a free mind who may question him "bashers" . It seems these people just want everything as they see it in their little bubble, but sorry, this is the real world. Why even come on a forum that isn't purposefully for Star Wars in the first place if you don't want people to have differing opinions to yourself?

It's kind of like this. I was excited for Tron 2. Tron 2 came out. I didn't care for it. I let it go. I don't visit Tron forums or participate in Tron discussion because I have nothing to contribute. Now, I enjoy critical discussion of the films, all six of them so I'm not that opposed to the "bashers" that think things out and aren't just presumptuous and thinking Lucas is out to rob them. If something doesn't work for you, let it go. I've never understood why people still follow Star Wars if it has let them down so much. Just move on.

Originally Posted by Adywan

What does a films box office record have anything to do with what audience the films were aimed at? And i can't even figure out why you even wrote this in reply to what i said because it actually had nothing to do with what i originally said. It was claimed that Star Wars was aimed at kids because there were action figures which kids played with. And my reply was that even films aimed at the "Adult" audience had merchandise aimed at children, so their point was invalid.

Star Wars was aimed at kids. The famous line about why Lucas got into the story was that he thought the adventures he loved as a kids were missing the post-Vietnam stagflation riddled United States. He even kept it so tame on purpose that it received a Rated G rating and while it was for kids, he didn't want to turn adults off to it either. So in some ways, it was aimed at everyone but kids were the primary goal as they were the sure thing. I would say shortly thereafter Lucas realized that aiming the films at families and treating them as family pictures was the way go to and that's pretty much the line Lucasfilm has toted the most.

But I promise, Lucas likes that his films make money. But I don't think he's the greedy guy you make him out to be in your post. A lot of people work at his company and when things go wrong, people get laid off. Theaters can go under if they have a bad season and Fox can lose a lot of money if the films aren't profitable.

[Monolithium]

With the Blu-ray release thread locked, how will I know what level of fan/hater I am?

[georgec]

Originally Posted by Monolithium

With the Blu-ray release thread locked, how will I know what level of fan/hater I am?

Locked? Serious business, this board is.

[shelldweller]

Originally Posted by JasonWard

I found this post interesting so I have decided to comment on it. I hope that is okay.

This is a rather large oversimplification of the reality of the situation. The problem with the live action series is that they want it to be about fifty times cheaper to produce, not that they want to make fifty times the profit. While profits are good, people at Lucasfilm that are not George Lucas need to be paid, the issue is more complex than that.

The movie business is built on technical revolution after technical revolution, and there are certain redundancies and things the industry is doing entirely for cultural or traditional reasons. If they accomplish their task, not only will be movies like Avatar be made at a quarter the cost, TV will flourish beyond anything we have ever seen.

That said, Lucas wants his endeavors to pay for the themselves and the next project. That's always been the goal and that is pretty much how the company has been run this entire time.

The episodes supposedly run about 50 million a piece, generally speaking from a quote by Lucas. There are supposed to be 16 episodes per season. They have three seasons in shooting draft form. Its cheaper to film as many seasons at once, so lets assume that's the goal.

According to you, Lucas should be willing to sink in 800 million dollars for the sake of art. The fact that he won't, means he is a money grubbing scrooge that hates his fans. In fact, its the opposite. Lucasfilm doesn't have 800 million dollars to sink into as season of a show or anything for that matter at one time and on top of that, if it failed, the company would collapse. Just thinking about this situation a little more clearly shows exactly how rational Lucas is being in this instance. It would cost 2.4 billion dollars to make the series at the price he quoted, which is probably high, but still, look at the costs and even if he's exaggerating a little, it it an astronomical sum.

How do you see this as an issue of caring about the fans? Should it be an surprise that as a director and an artist, he prefers this version of Star Wars and that's what we're going to get. You make it sound like he was lying to you personally. He is pleasing the fans by releasing the films on Blu-ray and that is nice.

Once again, he has no reason to convert the films to 3D if no one is going to watch them. They have to make enough money to cover distribution, promotion, and regardless of who paid for it, Lucasfilm or Fox, the movie theater and Fox are in it for the money. If they don't make money, why release them? Why continue doing it? The director wants the films watched 1-6, it's not any scam to make you pay for Episode I again. Lets just look at it in a negative light, if Episode I makes a certain amount of money, they can probably calculate how much the rest will make based off that film's performance. It's not that he's hard up for cash and just wants your money, it has to justify the work being done or people will lose out and the industry around it will suffer.

It's kind of like this. I was excited for Tron 2. Tron 2 came out. I didn't care for it. I let it go. I don't visit Tron forums or participate in Tron discussion because I have nothing to contribute. Now, I enjoy critical discussion of the films, all six of them so I'm not that opposed to the "bashers" that think things out and aren't just presumptuous and thinking Lucas is out to rob them. If something doesn't work for you, let it go. I've never understood why people still follow Star Wars if it has let them down so much. Just move on.

Star Wars was aimed at kids. The famous line about why Lucas got into the story was that he thought the adventures he loved as a kids were missing the post-Vietnam stagflation riddled United States. He even kept it so tame on purpose that it received a Rated G rating and while it was for kids, he didn't want to turn adults off to it either. So in some ways, it was aimed at everyone but kids were the primary goal as they were the sure thing. I would say shortly thereafter Lucas realized that aiming the films at families and treating them as family pictures was the way go to and that's pretty much the line Lucasfilm has toted the most.

But I promise, Lucas likes that his films make money. But I don't think he's the greedy guy you make him out to be in your post. A lot of people work at his company and when things go wrong, people get laid off. Theaters can go under if they have a bad season and Fox can lose a lot of money if the films aren't profitable.

Really great post, JasonWard!

Those are the basic points some of us are trying to make for months now. But the discussion just goes on and on... most of the time it will be dragged in a ridiculous direction like this fan-discussion yesterday.

If the Star Wars thread would open up again it might be a good idea to split it in two. You´d have one Star Wars BD thread and one Anti-SW thread for the "fans".

[Monolithium]

Originally Posted by shelldweller

If the Star Wars thread would open up again it might be a good idea to split it in two. You´d have one Star Wars BD thread and one Anti-SW thread for the "fans".

One for endless conversations with people who all have the same opinion regarding a franchise they love!

and

One for endless conversations with people who all have different opinions regarding a franchise they love!

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by shelldweller

Really great post, JasonWard!

Those are the basic points some of us are trying to make for months now. But the discussion just goes on and on... most of the time it will be dragged in a ridiculous direction like this fan-discussion yesterday.

I agree that JasonWard did make make many great points and I agree with most of them. Particularly the things about the Live Action TV series and the 3D versions of the movies.

That being said, if I recall correctly, Adywan's post that JasonWard quoted was in response to a conversation that stemmed from another poster making a comment saying that he doesn't even think that Lucas is going to make much money from the Blu-Ray set, with most of the money going to Fox, and that he's just releasing it purely for the fans and for no other reason.

This was an absurd statement. While we don't know the exact breakdown, the idea that Lucas wouldn't be getting at least a significant portion of the profits from the latest home video release of movies that he OWNS is just downright absurd and asinine.

I'm sure to that an extent Lucas does care about the fans. While I disagree venomously on him refusing to release the UOT, in most other respects I think he does care about the fans, but the point that I'm making here (and that I think Adywan was trying to make) is that he is still very much a business man with money being a very significant factor in all of this.

The problem with JasonWard's post, and by extension, your post here, shelldweller, is that you completely lost the context of Adywan's post, and it's just being replied to at face value.

Adywan was just making those points not necessarily to say that Lucas is wrong for choosing to not do those things if they aren't financially viable and profitable, but more so to illustrate money IS a factor in all of this. He can correct me if I am wrong, but in that context I don't even think that Adywan is making an opposing point as JasonWard. I think he was making essentially the same point in a different manner. But when reading his post outside of the context of what it was in response to, it looks like he is criticizing Lucas for wanting to make money off of these endeavors, and while I know that Adywan has a lot of issues with Lucas, I don't think this is one of them (though again he can correct me if I am wrong).

If the Star Wars thread would open up again it might be a good idea to split it in two. You´d have one Star Wars BD thread and one Anti-SW thread for the "fans".

You know, it's probably comments like this that got you suspended previously, and NOT simply you making nice comments about the PT or the Saga as whole.

This also goes to show that, contrary to what you said in response to it, you COMPLETELY MISSED the point of my 'steak served on a dirty trash can lid' analogy from yesterday.

All of this back and forth about who is and isn't a "real fan" does nothing but throw gasoline on a fire that is already burning out of control. (and you even putting the word fan in quotes in your post is the same as saying that others aren't real fans).

While I have disagreed on things quite a bit, to my recollection, I don't believe that I've ever once stated that fans of the PT or the whole Saga are wrong for enjoying the movies. But the reality is that there IS a very, very notable difference in character and plot development with the PT compared to the OT, as I illustrated in my post yesterday in the other thread ad nausium. Maybe for you and other PT fans, these just weren't the biggest issues for you and it was other things about the PT that made you like them. Okay, fine, nothing wrong with that. But for myself and many others, these things were and still are big problems. And it is a very, very notable difference in quality in the 2 trillogies. The fact that the same "artist made them" doesn't change that fact. You keep saying that as if you feel our complaints are not legit, but theoretically would be if it had been someone else writing, directing, and overseeing the PT instead of Lucas. So, if someone else had done that, but the films had somehow turned out EXACTLY the same as they are now, we would be within our rights to make our criticisms, but since in reality it was Lucas who made them, we are not? That's some selective reasoning there.

While there has been heated arguments and out-of-line posts on BOTH sides of this debate, I frankly find that it's the people on your side of the fence making comments like the one that you have made here, calling the opposing view haters, complainers, not real fans, etc, and just doing more to add to fuel to the fire in that sense.

Yesterday you seemed to think that I was pulling Lucas's contradictions out of my ass, but then when you challenged me to prove it, I delivered. I gave 2 replies with articles and references to Lucas's contradictions. But conveniently you never replied (and don't try to make some excuse like you were too busy to reply or that you saw it after the thread got locked, because there was plenty of time between me posting it and the thread getting locked for you to aknowledge that I delivered, and you WERE online reading the forum during that time).

But that seems to be true of people on your side of the fence. We make a critical point about something specific Lucas has done, you challenge us to explain it or prove it because you just don't see how Lucas can do ANYTHING wrong, and when we do, it's ignored and instead you just go back to the general argument against the people who are critical of the PT and OT changes (just like you did with your snippy little comment hear about splitting up the other thread), since you were backed into a corner on the other issue. When the going gets tough, the PT fans trail off....

[Shaft Windu]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

But that seems to be true of people on your side of the fence. We make a critical point about something specific Lucas has done, you challenge us to explain it or prove it because you just don't see how Lucas can do ANYTHING wrong, and when we do, it's ignored and instead you just go back to the general argument against the people who are critical of the PT and OT changes (just like you did with your snippy little comment hear about splitting up the other thread), since you were backed into a corner on the other issue. When the going gets tough, the PT fans trail off....

As I recall You saw it as a contradiction that there was talk about prequels AND sequels and that Lucas is and was an outspoken defender of the artists right to claim copyright and protect his work.

Yes, at first before he had mapped out the six-part-structure and before it was clear to him that it starts and ends with Anakins Story BUT had decided on the episodic structure (due to his love for the Flash Gordon / Buck Rogers-Serials from his childhood) he said it would be a 9-Part Saga and that he would start with the middle-trilogy. That's no "contradiction" but rather a result of his creative process. I have no problem with that and I'll gladly admit that he did not map out the whole saga from the beginning like let's say Tolkien did before his LotR-books. I see that more as a strength than a weakness because Star Wars deals largely with subconciousness and inspiration that Lucas could allow to influence the Episodes during their conception.

The other statement proves more that he is consistent and not contradicting himself. He pleads for the right of the filmmaker and the artist in general to have the last word on his work and NOT the studios and corporations. When the artist is dead the movies should belong as a cultural heritage to the people. But he stood and stands for the artists point of view - and yes the "fans" as well as the business interests stand in second row. If he wanted to make more money by pandering to the "fans" he would have released the "Outdated Original Trilogy" seperately or had included it in a megaset. I don't get your point at all!

In the end it's totally subjective... I say Lucas has artistic integrity and has created a great 6-part-Saga. You say Lucas is a moneygrabbing fool who destroyed something that Star Wars once was. I say all 6 movies are equally good and very similar in tone as well as a treasure-chest of art, literature and mythology - You say the prequels are dumb kiddie-movies...

There is no middle ground or compromise. I can't make you see what I see in these movies and you can't make me dislike them. As much as I would love to open your eyes and for you to rewatch the movies with an open mind - I can't obviously. So we'd HAVE TO agree to disagree.

[Cowboy]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

As I recall You saw it as a contradiction that there was talk about prequels AND sequels and that Lucas is and was an outspoken defender of the artists right to claim copyright and protect his work.

Yes, at first before he had mapped out the six-part-structure and before it was clear to him that it starts and ends with Anakins Story BUT had decided on the episodic structure (due to his love for the Flash Gordon / Buck Rogers-Serials from his childhood) he said it would be a 9-Part Saga and that he would start with the middle-trilogy. That's no "contradiction" but rather a result of his creative process. I have no problem with that and I'll gladly admit that he did not map out the whole saga from the beginning like let's say Tolkien did before his LotR-books. I see that more as a strength than a weakness because Star Wars deals largely with subconciousness and inspiration that Lucas could allow to influence the Episodes during their conception.

The other statement proves more that he is consistent and not contradicting himself. He pleads for the right of the filmmaker and the artist in general to have the last word on his work and NOT the studios and corporations. When the artist is dead the movies should belong as a cultural heritage to the people. But he stood and stands for the artists point of view - and yes the "fans" as well as the business interests stand in second row. If he wanted to make more money by pandering to the "fans" he would have released the "Outdated Original Trilogy" seperately or had included it in a megaset. I don't get your point at all!

In the end it's totally subjective... I say Lucas has artistic integrity and has created a great 6-part-Saga. You say Lucas is a moneygrabbing fool who destroyed something that Star Wars once was. I say all 6 movies are equally good and very similar in tone as well as a treasure-chest of art, literature and mythology - You say the prequels are dumb kiddie-movies...

There is no middle ground or compromise. I can't make you see what I see in these movies and you can't make me dislike them. As much as I would love to open your eyes and for you to rewatch the movies with an open mind - I can't obviously. So we'd HAVE TO agree to disagree.

The highlighted above just killed your post. You were making a valid argument but when you throw out absurd comments like the one above it just defeats the purpose of your response. Because a film is old does that make it "outdated"?

Second Highlight; have we not been doing that all along? Agree to Disagree.

The bottom line is this: Lucas should release the UOT in the latest possible format which curently is BD HD. Every major critic that has an opinion has said so, all of his peers that have an opinion on the subject have said so. Almost an entire generation that loves this films have said so. The National Film Registry has said so by simply refusing his SE cuts that he offered them at first. Are they his films? Yes! Is revisionism wrong? Yes. Is anyone saying he can't fiddle with his films? No. Does Lucas even have to pay for the restoration of the film? No! The were remastered in 1997 before the SE's were made. Is money an issue for the HD remaster? No! It would cost very little and he has even been approached by industry experts that said they would do it for free. Nobody should be opposed to Lucas releasing the UOT in a seperate release at all for fear of "messing" up some Saga that is already messed up with regards to the plot in so many ways. There are some that have this grand scheme about what they think Star Wars is, like its some kind of real world that takes into account every EU book, Online SW encyclopedia or cartoon for all the answers. For some reason they think that by releasing the UOT it is going to mess up this world that they have created for themselves.

The main argument has been when fans of the UOT have complained and the fans of the PT/ Saga have basically told us to shut up, stop crying and are defending George without question on every decision. Why is this even an ongoing argument? Fans that love all the films and his latest "artistic" cuts/revisions/etc.. are getting what you want so be happy! Rejoice as Septemeber is almost here. There is no reason to rain on our pitty parade though.....fans that love the first three films and have for over 30 years (as much as you love your films) are the ones getting screwed in all this.

[shelldweller]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

I agree that JasonWard did make make many great points and I agree with most of them. Particularly the things about the Live Action TV series and the 3D versions of the movies.

That being said, if I recall correctly, Adywan's post that JasonWard quoted was in response to a conversation that stemmed from another poster making a comment saying that he doesn't even think that Lucas is going to make much money from the Blu-Ray set, with most of the money going to Fox, and that he's just releasing it purely for the fans and for no other reason.

This was an absurd statement. While we don't know the exact breakdown, the idea that Lucas wouldn't be getting at least a significant portion of the profits from the latest home video release of movies that he OWNS is just downright absurd and asinine.

I'm sure to that an extent Lucas does care about the fans. While I disagree venomously on him refusing to release the UOT, in most other respects I think he does care about the fans, but the point that I'm making here (and that I think Adywan was trying to make) is that he is still very much a business man with money being a very significant factor in all of this.

The problem with JasonWard's post, and by extension, your post here, shelldweller, is that you completely lost the context of Adywan's post, and it's just being replied to at face value.

Adywan was just making those points not necessarily to say that Lucas is wrong for choosing to not do those things if they aren't financially viable and profitable, but more so to illustrate money IS a factor in all of this. He can correct me if I am wrong, but in that context I don't even think that Adywan is making an opposing point as JasonWard. I think he was making essentially the same point in a different manner. But when reading his post outside of the context of what it was in response to, it looks like he is criticizing Lucas for wanting to make money off of these endeavors, and while I know that Adywan has a lot of issues with Lucas, I don't think this is one of them (though again he can correct me if I am wrong).




You know, it's probably comments like this that got you suspended previously, and NOT simply you making nice comments about the PT or the Saga as whole.

This also goes to show that, contrary to what you said in response to it, you COMPLETELY MISSED the point of my 'steak served on a dirty trash can lid' analogy from yesterday.

All of this back and forth about who is and isn't a "real fan" does nothing but throw gasoline on a fire that is already burning out of control. (and you even putting the word fan in quotes in your post is the same as saying that others aren't real fans).

While I have disagreed on things quite a bit, to my recollection, I don't believe that I've ever once stated that fans of the PT or the whole Saga are wrong for enjoying the movies. But the reality is that there IS a very, very notable difference in character and plot development with the PT compared to the OT, as I illustrated in my post yesterday in the other thread ad nausium. Maybe for you and other PT fans, these just weren't the biggest issues for you and it was other things about the PT that made you like them. Okay, fine, nothing wrong with that. But for myself and many others, these things were and still are big problems. And it is a very, very notable difference in quality in the 2 trillogies. The fact that the same "artist made them" doesn't change that fact. You keep saying that as if you feel our complaints are not legit, but theoretically would be if it had been someone else writing, directing, and overseeing the PT instead of Lucas. So, if someone else had done that, but the films had somehow turned out EXACTLY the same as they are now, we would be within our rights to make our criticisms, but since in reality it was Lucas who made them, we are not? That's some selective reasoning there.

While there has been heated arguments and out-of-line posts on BOTH sides of this debate, I frankly find that it's the people on your side of the fence making comments like the one that you have made here, calling the opposing view haters, complainers, not real fans, etc, and just doing more to add to fuel to the fire in that sense.

Yesterday you seemed to think that I was pulling Lucas's contradictions out of my ass, but then when you challenged me to prove it, I delivered. I gave 2 replies with articles and references to Lucas's contradictions. But conveniently you never replied (and don't try to make some excuse like you were too busy to reply or that you saw it after the thread got locked, because there was plenty of time between me posting it and the thread getting locked for you to aknowledge that I delivered, and you WERE online reading the forum during that time).

But that seems to be true of people on your side of the fence. We make a critical point about something specific Lucas has done, you challenge us to explain it or prove it because you just don't see how Lucas can do ANYTHING wrong, and when we do, it's ignored and instead you just go back to the general argument against the people who are critical of the PT and OT changes (just like you did with your snippy little comment hear about splitting up the other thread), since you were backed into a corner on the other issue. When the going gets tough, the PT fans trail off....

I don´t have to explain anything to you. I thought I said enough to make my point. Posting a link to this savestarwars-site isn´t what I can take serious as an argumentation. It is well known that the so called "bashers" are happily misinterpreting Lucas´speech. I will not let you pick a fight or whatever you are up to.

My idea was it to split the thread between both sides of the "fence" as you keep calling it. I have no idea how that can be seen as provocative. It is the easiest way to get out of the way of the other since the reasons why the pro people are here are completely different from reasons of the anti people, I guess.

In the end I can not make you like something you just don´t like. The thing that always fuels the fire is that the people who don´t like what Star Wars has become can´t just let it go. All I want is a peaceful discussion and respect for art.

[Shaft Windu]

Originally Posted by Cowboy

The highlighted above just killed your post. You were making a valid argument but when you throw out absurd comments like the one above it just defeats the purpose of your response. Because a film is old does that make it "outdated"?

Why, it's a fact! That doesn't mean I look down upon the Original Trilogy in any way because as I've said multiple times: The Theatrical and Updated versions just added slight improvements and are the SAME MOVIE.
The changes were made in a time when the six part saga was not finished yet, so versions before the completion of the Saga are "outdated" because a version without Ian McDiarmid in "Empire or Hayden Christensen in "Jedi" doesn't fit with the overall saga as well as the current or the coming BluRay versions. They couldn't have done it earlier because there was no Anakin-Actor yet. Shaw was a stand-in like the guy they filmed as "Jabba" for A New Hope... So outdated is just a fact because it's the edition before the date of completion.

[Cowboy]

Originally Posted by Shaft Windu

Why, it's a fact! That doesn't mean I look down upon the Original Trilogy in any way because as I've said multiple times: The Theatrical and Updated versions just added slight improvements and are the SAME MOVIE.
The changes were made in a time when the six part saga was not finished yet, so versions before the completion of the Saga are "outdated" because a version without Ian McDiarmid in "Empire or Hayden Christensen in "Jedi" doesn't fit with the overall saga as well as the current or the coming BluRay versions. They couldn't have done it earlier because there was no Anakin-Actor yet. Shaw was a stand-in like the guy they filmed as "Jabba" for A New Hope... So outdated is just a fact because it's the edition before the date of completion.

Completion to when? It's not completed now! In 5 years he will change something else! Why can't you accept the fact that the films were completed, released and released in home editons for OVER TWENTY YEARS before they were changed. I can not make it any clearer and I am not going to try. All I can say is go back and reread my post above with the inclusion of fans and the world that they have created.

Thanks and Peace out...

[Monolithium]

Originally Posted by shelldweller

All I want is a peaceful discussion and respect for art.

It is possible to respect art and still criticize it.

[Shaft Windu]

Originally Posted by Cowboy

Completion to when? It's not completed now! In 5 years he will change something else! Why can't you accept the fact that the films were completed, released and released in home editons for OVER TWENTY YEARS before they were changed. I can not make it any clearer and I am not going to try. All I can say is go back and reread my post above with the inclusion of fans and the world that they have created.

Thanks and Peace out...

Okay, maybe you are right and he will change the movies as long as he's alive. Or I'm right and he has completed the saga now and will move on to other projects. Who's to say? But there is no argument to be had really. We can for now only judge by what has been said. In 5 years, when you are right we will meet here again and I will gladly admit that I was wrong!

The point where it comes down to is that I love the prequels and see the movies as 6 equally valid parts and you want the version from before 97 on Bluray and see the trilogies as seperate and one inferior to the other. You take the viewpoint of the original fanbase and for me the view of the fimmaker is more important. Again, there is also no argument to be had because you can post "proofs" for your subjective view and I for mine. This will never end... It's a matter of personal taste.

I'm off arguing now with you - mainly because I don't want to spoil "Lee Van Cleef" for me. He's a cool dude!

[octagon]

Originally Posted by shelldweller

If the Star Wars thread would open up again it might be a good idea to split it in two. You´d have one Star Wars BD thread and one Anti-SW thread for the "fans".

So basically one thread for people who love every shot of every film and who think GL can do no wrong and another separate thread for the fanboys?

Interesting thought...

[Shaft Windu]

Originally Posted by octagon

So basically one thread for people who love every shot of every film and who think GL can do no wrong and another separate thread for the fanboys?

Interesting thought...

He did wrong and fixed it with the Special Edition

There is constructive and destructive critizism. It's a difference to say I would have introduced this or that character earlier or I don't dig certain scenes - and to say 3 of 6 movies are mostly crap. Wouldn't you agree?

Doesn't the guy who created the whole thing from scratch deserve at least so much respect as a fanboy who has done nothing but complain?

For example: Most people rejected the idea of midichlorians without even grasping the concept because they thought it undermines the concept of the force itself. But midichlorians were invented at the same time as jedi, lightsabers, death stars, storm-troopers... and they are in the movie for a reason not just for shits and giggles!

[shelldweller]

Originally Posted by octagon

So basically one thread for people who love every shot of every film and who think GL can do no wrong and another separate thread for the fanboys?

Interesting thought...

Yawn ...

Originally Posted by Monolithium

It is possible to respect art and still criticize it.

Of course, there´s nothing wrong with critique. Nobody said anything against that. The opposite of constant complaining is not blind following.

[JasonWard]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

I agree that JasonWard did make make many great points and I agree with most of them. Particularly the things about the Live Action TV series and the 3D versions of the movies.

That being said, if I recall correctly, Adywan's post that JasonWard quoted was in response to a conversation that stemmed from another poster making a comment saying that he doesn't even think that Lucas is going to make much money from the Blu-Ray set, with most of the money going to Fox, and that he's just releasing it purely for the fans and for no other reason.

Right, I was replying with a shifted context to what Adywan was saying. But the statements that Adywan made, stand on their own as statements about Lucas and how he works, which was why I wanted to reply to it. I tried to make a little disclaimer at the top of my post about how I was chiming in, which I probably could have made clearer.