Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by alchav21

To answer some of these questions, I think Codec has gotten a lot more efficient and will continue to get better. This will make the Quality of Streaming go up with less Bitrates. What do you Disc guys envision for 8K, I say they will have to put it on the same size UHD Disc. That probably means the Codec for the Disc will have to be more efficient to fit. So Codec getting more efficient with Bitrates coming down, making the Quality of Streaming similar to Disc will appeal to the Average Person. Telco's and Cableco's recognize that Gigabit Broadband is needed, are expanding their offerings. What all this means, Streaming will rely on Bandwidth, Networks, and Servers!

Streaming already relies on bandwidth, networks, and servers. Nothing new about that.

8K is a big question mark; it has four times the resolution and four times the pixels of 4K. The internet and consumer data plans are nowhere near to being ready for the demands of 8K streaming.

Youtube's 8K streams demand 50 Mbps bitrates at a minimum and some sources say bitrates as high as 100 Mbps will be needed for 8K streaming. This would require 3-6 times the bandwidth of a typical 16 Mbps 4K stream. Again, that would be like trying to stream 3-6 movies in 4K simultaneously. Few people's internet can handle that and they better have gigantic data allowances with their plan.

More efficient codecs might be able to tame some of this bandwidth demand, but the end result will still require much more bandwidth availability and much more data usage both of which will cost more money even when, or if, it becomes widely available. And will consumers even want it?

As for optical media, it, too, could potentially benefit from more efficient codecs and it could also benefit from greater data density on the disc itself. Just increasing data density alone with existing codecs might be sufficient as well.

CDs use a 780 nm (nanometer) red laser, DVDs use a 650 nm red laser while blu-rays and 4K discs use a 405 nm blue-violet laser. The shortening of laser wavelength has allowed for ever greater amounts of data to be encoded onto the same 120 mm size disc, but how much more data can realistically be put onto a 120 mm disc? Will a larger disc be necessary or perhaps a new type of physical media altogether?

Some people feel that 8K content will primarily take the form of live broadcasts and be limited to new content created going forward. These same people think it is unlikely that the movie studios will be giving us 8K versions of "older" films. It is equally unknown if consumers will even adopt 8K technology. It all is a big unknown.

[alchav21]

I think you answered the question, putting 8K on a Disc is not practical, it's better suited for a Storage Device like SSD or Server. Since Technology waits for no one, I say Streaming will take over and Networks and Servers will be the Distribution Point!

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by alchav21

I think you answered the question, putting 8K on a Disc is not practical, it's better suited for a Storage Device like SSD or Server. Since Technology waits for no one, I say Streaming will take over and Networks and Servers will be the Distribution Point!

At this point there is no practical way to deliver 8K content for the vast majority of people. The internet is not ready to handle the demands of it and at the moment there is no physical format for it, either. If the internet gets to where it can offer the necessary bandwidth and data allowances, the cost for such service will be more expensive also. Will consumers want 8K content enough to pay more for their internet service? Will they want to buy still another new TV or projector that is capable of displaying 8K content? Especially when there likely won't even be that much 8K content to watch both initially and for a very long time afterwards? I think the marketing for 8K will be interesting to see and I really wonder if it will convince very many people to invest in it.

Creating a larger storage device in the form of some type of physical media will likely take less effort than the huge undertaking necessary to upgrade the internet infrastructure to handle the rigorous demands of 8K streaming. A shorter wavelength laser allowing for higher data density on existing 120 mm discs, a larger disc entirely, or some type of affordable and more durable flash drives like current USB sticks, or some new media altogether could have the capacity to store 8K content without the excessive compression that streaming is certain to require. Maybe a new miraculous codec will make both 8K physical media and 8K streaming viable? Too soon to know.

All of that operates on the assumption that there will sufficient demand for 8K content in the first place. People may not want it enough to encourage the level of investment necessary to deliver it via either method. I doubt 8K will be widely adopted in my lifetime and maybe not even enough to be a niche of a niche market.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by kfbkfb

Video Codecs: What's on the horizon for Video Codec efficiency (Data Rate/Picture Quality tradeoff)?

If you want to follow this stuff then I suggest you checkout the various threads over at Doom9, click here.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by alchav21

To answer some of these questions, I think Codec has gotten a lot more efficient and will continue to get better. This will make the Quality of Streaming go up with less Bitrates.

Video codecs have not changed in several years. The latest, H.265, was published in June 2013. It is used mostly for UHD/4K content, i.e. UHD Blu-ray disc, Netflix streams, etc. H.264, was first published in May 2003. It is used mainly for 1080 content, i.e., Blu-ray disc, Netflix streams, DVB-S2, etc.

Most all decoding devices use hardwired silicon, IOW, the decoder is fixed and should conform to the codec specifications.

The reduction in data use comes from more advanced video encoders. There is only so much one can do with any given data rate. Example, I was just watching a 1080 Netflix nature show at 5.7 Mbps and it looked pretty good till it showed a flock of small birds. The birds turned into a macroblocking mess.

The bit rate values as used by Blu-ray and UHD Blu-ray were derived from a lot of lab testing. The goal was to have sufficient bit rates so the compressed video stream would look the same as the un-compressed video stream. This was done using professional monitors, side by side, one with un-compressed video stream and the other with the compressed video stream. PSNR testing has also been used.

I’m not sure why you continue trying to relate streaming quality to disc quality. It would take multi billions of dollars of infrastructure and FTTH or FTTP spending for everyone just to have the same quality as a Blu-ray disc. As they say in the South, “Ain’t going to happen anytime soon.”

[Musashi]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Owning a Disc Collection will slowly fade away.

Originally Posted by alchav21

everything always moves forward.

So which is it?

[alchav21]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

I’m not sure why you continue trying to relate streaming quality to disc quality. It would take multi billions of dollars of infrastructure and FTTH or FTTP spending for everyone just to have the same quality as a Blu-ray disc. As they say in the South, “Ain’t going to happen anytime soon.”

That's why I say Similar to Disc, because I know it's not 1:1 but I don't see the Micro Blocking that you do. You're right that the Infrastructure has to be FTTP, where the Telco's can provide and the Cableco's are trying with DOCSIS 3.1:

https://www.ecnmag.com/data-focus/20...cablelabs-says

I say that Anytime is coming Sooner than you think. So the next step is 8K and they are already selling the TV's. How do you think that Content will be Distributed? I say through Streaming Networks and Servers!

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by alchav21

That's why I say Similar to Disc, because I know it's not 1:1 but I don't see the Micro Blocking that you do. You're right that the Infrastructure has to be FTTP, where the Telco's can provide and the Cableco's are trying with DOCSIS 3.1:

https://www.ecnmag.com/data-focus/20...cablelabs-says

I say that Anytime is coming Sooner than you think. So the next step is 8K and they are already selling the TV's. How do you think that Content will be Distributed? I say through Streaming Networks and Servers!

Even I can get gigabit internet here in my tiny little village due to its proximity to a college town 7 miles away- but it would cost $140 per month. I am not willing to pay that and I do not know anyone who is.

8K content delivered over the internet will still be the highly compressed bitrate starved content that 4K streams are now. To truly appreciate 8K content, and 4K and HD, you still need the far less compressed and many times higher bitrate content that only physical media can offer.

Streaming is not going to offer the same quality that physical media does, especially with any possible 8K content. 4K discs have 108-128Mbps bitrates and that is 7-8 times that of a 4K stream now. 8K offers 4 times the resolution and 4 times the pixels of 4K and only physical media can potentially offer the extremely high bitrates to do that content justice. Add in the luxuriant cost of 8K displays and their even larger average screen sizes, consumers buying into this premium tier of technology will want the best source for their content and streaming is not even that now. Macro-blocking and buffering will not be very pleasing to behold on a 100" 8K display.

4K content is already pushing the limits of what the internet can offer; it is nowhere near ready to handle 8K content even when extremely compressed as it will have to be. Streaming content providers already have difficulty with the existing demands on their servers; they will have to upgrade as well to support 8K streaming and the question is will they when likely very few people will buy into this 8K technology. Physical media has always set the standard in quality and it is what has pushed the envelope forward; physical media leads the way, streaming tries to follow. Streaming, as always, just offers at best a convenient, albeit decent, second-place alternative.

Again, this assumes that consumers will even buy into whatever 8K displays offer in the first place; they may well not considering the high cost involved. Further, actual 8K content will likely be very scarce to come by for a long time. Few people believe that the studios have any intention of releasing movies in true 8K; upscales are the most we are likely to see. New content being made now and future live broadcasts seem to be the most likely candidates for 8K content along with the ever ubiquitous youtube cat videos.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by alchav21

That's why I say Similar to Disc, because I know it's not 1:1 but I don't see the Micro Blocking that you do.

I see macro blocking, banding, mosquito noise, etc. on a lot of streams. Before retirement I used to help folks at work with WordPerfect. On several occasions when I got to their work place the first thing I had to do was change their monitor to 60 Hz because it was set to 30 Hz. At 30 Hz the flicker would drive me crazy. I tried my best to get people to see the difference, most could not. I have pointed out macro blocking, banding and mosquito noise to layman but most never see what I am trying to show them. Just because you do not see video aberrations does not mean they are not there.

I say that Anytime is coming Sooner than you think. So the next step is 8K and they are already selling the TV's. How do you think that Content will be Distributed? I say through Streaming Networks and Servers!

Streaming is not all that great at 2K so why would I be concerned with 8K. I have mentioned this before but will repeat. For MOVIES, there are very few real UHD titles available, most titles are upscaled from 2K DI masters.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

I see macro blocking, banding, mosquito noise, etc. on a lot of streams. Before retirement I used to help folks at work with WordPerfect. On several occasions when I got to their work place the first thing I had to do was change their monitor to 60 Hz because it was set to 30 Hz. At 30 Hz the flicker would drive me crazy. I tried my best to get people to see the difference, most could not. I have pointed out macro blocking, banding and mosquito noise to layman but most never see what I am trying to show them. Just because you do not see video aberrations does not mean they are not there.

Streaming is not all that great at 2K so why would I be concerned with 8K. I have mentioned this before but will repeat. For MOVIES, there are very few real UHD titles available, most titles are upscaled from 2K DI masters.

There are several 4K discs, but not enough, sourced from a 4K or higher master; this thread lists them and it is updated regularly; see title list starting on the first page of the thread:

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...om+a+4k+master

Many of those 2K upscales look really good, too. Some are unremarkable and look little better than the blu-ray. You really have to research each 4K disc title to see if the upgrade is worth it or not.

The likelihood of there being much true 8K content other than youtube scenery shorts seems highly unlikely. Upscales to 8K will be the norm with the same variable results that 2K upscales provide now.

But if 8K displays can revive home 3D viewing with 4K 3D as the cherry on top, and without the need for glasses, then I am already sold.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Vilya

There are several 4K discs, but not enough, sourced from a 4K or higher master; this thread lists them and it is updated regularly; see title list starting on the first page of the thread:

One thread I try to check every day. I like how this site has added that info to all the UHD Blu-ray titles.

I need to take some time and come up with a method to have that info in fields of my media database (Movie Collectorz). As of now I just add it to the title name as seen in the linked PDF. I create PDFs of the entire collection, titles with immersive audio, 3D, westerns, etc., makes it easy to look at on the tablets. Movie Collectorz also has a mobile app that syncs with the database on the PC.

My UHD BD's here.

[Vilya]

My blu-ray and dvd collections are in a tie!

Well, according to blu-ray.com math they are. By my count, my blu-rays over took my dvd collection about a week ago. I added Family Guy season 15 to my dvd collection yesterday and blu-ray.com added 6 to my dvd collection total- this site does goofy addition from time to time.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by Vilya

My blu-ray and dvd collections are in a tie!

Well, according to blu-ray.com math they are. By my count, my blu-rays over took my dvd collection about a week ago. I added Family Guy season 15 to my dvd collection yesterday and blu-ray.com added 6 to my dvd collection total- this site does goofy addition from time to time.

Yeah, I don't always agree with the math on here. Also Family Guy season 15 counting as 6 titles makes no sense at all (there's not even 6 discs in the FG season sets).

That reminds me, though, that I need to pick that DVD up.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Well, according to blu-ray.com math they are.

The database here shows that I have a few more titles than I actually have. I import my titles from Movie Collectorz and a few get listed twice. I used to try and edit the database here but as I get older it does not seem as important to have an exact match.

[avs commenter]

Just bought Avengers 1 & 2 4K digital codes via Ebay. Spent about $22 total. Which is less than half of what I would have paid buying both physical. Love it!

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by avs commenter

Just bought Avengers 1 & 2 4K digital codes via Ebay. Spent about $22 total. Which is less than half of what I would have paid buying both physical. Love it!

I had to have those in 3D, so disc was not only the best option, but in this case probably the only option. I have most of my Marvel super hero movies in 3D wherever such titles exist.

You got a great price, but I would have waited and bought the 4K discs when on sale even if that still meant paying more. No need to repeat why I feel that way as it is well known already, but it is nice to have options.

[avs commenter]

There are movies where I want the physical disc, but they are few and far between. Most movies I'm more than comfortable just owning the digital copy.

[flyry]

It's a Wonderful Life is coming to 4k but digital only.

I wonder how much more of this we see in the future.

MGM did this quietly with silence of the lambs and princess bride last year but wonderful life actually had an announcement.

That's a big title too coming 11/20 for the holidays.

Discuss

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by flyry

It's a Wonderful Life is coming to 4k but digital only.

I wonder how much more of this we see in the future.

MGM did this quietly with silence of the lambs and princess bride last year but wonderful life actually had an announcement.

That's a big title too coming 11/20 for the holidays.

Discuss

I will hold out for a 4K disc; the blu-ray of this black and white classic already looks pretty good besides. The digital 4K release might just be a way to gauge the interest before committing to a 4K disc manufacture. Or not. Time will tell.

As a matter of personal principle, I will not buy digital movies or TV shows. If that ever becomes my only choice, I have other "skills" that enable me to achieve my objectives. I will only pay money for something that I can tangibly own.

[Ender14]

Originally Posted by flyry

It's a Wonderful Life is coming to 4k but digital only.

I wonder how much more of this we see in the future.

MGM did this quietly with silence of the lambs and princess bride last year but wonderful life actually had an announcement.

That's a big title too coming 11/20 for the holidays.

Discuss

It's a Wonderful Life is one of my all-time favorites, but unless it is released in 4K on disc they won't get my money again.

I know many studios are doing this and quite frankly I think it sucks. I will not purchase movies digitally, and I know I'm not the only one. They are choosing to leave money on the table when it comes to these digital only releases. And based on digital sell through numbers, the cost of remastering in 4K could exceed the revenue they will see from digital alone. If they are using digital sell through as litmus test for interest in 4K content then they will get skewed results. And as such, studios will be less likely to spend money on remasters.

In my opinion, an upscaled blu-ray looks just as good if not better than a 4K stream. So if a movie is only released in 4K digitally, then in my mind it's never been released in 4K at all.