Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Vilya

I do not know how many times I have heard someone say that they will just wait for a movie to come to Netflix instead of buying it- on disc or digital.

I hear the same today and heard yesteryear, just replace Netflix with HBO and/or Showtime.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

I hear the same today and heard yesteryear, just replace Netflix with HBO and/or Showtime.

Yes, and even then there were quality minded movie collectors paying what is equivalent to $65-70 each, in today's dollars, for a single laserdisc title to play on a player that cost $1747 when adjusted for inflation.

The quality motivated have always shown a willingness to pay a premium for the best, then as now. It is these same people that will keep physical media alive in this age of the streaming smorgasbord.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Vilya

I never leave here upset. I enjoy my time here, but if you are unhappy, then step away for a bit and come back when you feel better. This website is a great source of information for our hobby; don't allow it to become a source of anxiety instead.

I agree and have said it's just a thread on a forum.

I've been adding more rack rails to my EIA 19" equipment racks and now have my Oppo UDP-203 and Sony UBP-X1000ES rack mounted. Will post some pictures in the coming weeks.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Vilya

I would change that last sentence a little bit, though. Convenience and economy will always be dominant, but quality remains for those who value it.

Most, if not every, product and service category offers an affordable choice and a premium one. The fact that most people will choose the former has never eliminated the latter.

DVD heralded the death of laserdisc, not VHS. DVD was better quality, took up far less space, and was vastly more affordable; laserdisc could not compete with all of that. Prior to DVD, laserdisc had its own comfortable niche driven by the quality minded consumer despite the huge cost difference between it and VHS. Laserdisc players never attained a consumer friendly price point, nor did the laserdiscs themselves, but they found their market just the same.

Here is your digital future. I predict this cheaper option will be smartphone only.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/12/...stings-markets

It starts. This option will be rolled out internationally shorter after imo.

[Musashi]

Originally Posted by Vilya

You are on an internet forum. You can't help but read stupid comments, especially when you are the author of many of them yourself. I contribute my share as well, so don't feel too badly.

I do not know why you take this so personally. I am not bothered by the choices that other people make for themselves. I spend my time enjoying my life in the way that I choose to live it. My happiness is not dependent upon what other people choose to do; I make my own.

I enjoy talking about this subject, and at great length obviously, but when I log off I have many other hobbies that I also pursue. I like talking to people with different opinions because it is far more interesting than just sitting in an echo chamber where everyone just sings the same praises over and over. I also learn new and interesting things occasionally by being willing to listen.

I never leave here upset. I enjoy my time here, but if you are unhappy, then step away for a bit and come back when you feel better. This website is a great source of information for our hobby; don't allow it to become a source of anxiety instead.

True enough about the internet, though I'd like to think this site generally has more reasonable conversation than a great many others out there.

I don't take anyone's preference personally, and I think it's clear that in the many years to come, there will be physical movie discs, there will be downloadable options, and there will be streaming services. That's the future. I do not see a digital only future happening, and for it to happen would not be progress, but a shameful step backwards.

To be fair to Steedeel regarding taking things personally, you have quips like these, where people tried to make it more personal:

Originally Posted by cheez avenger

As cool as the "40 Year Old Virgin's" man cave was, that's not going to fly nowadays. Especially if you want to bang hot chicks.

Originally Posted by cheez avenger

Life is too short to let it define you by how big your Blu-ray collection is.

Originally Posted by avs commenter

Go to your safe space and cuddle up next to your precious slip covers and steel books.

All I got out of those was "nice straw man."

[cgpublic]

Upfront, we purchase both physical and digital media for films, in addition to subscribing to Amazon Prime, Netflix, FilmStruck. For music, I once split my purchasing between physical and digital (iTunes), but since Apple Music hit the scene we purchased a family subscription and never looked back.

I love physical media and enjoy collecting Criterion and other specialty label releases, along with unique packaging. But a few days ago I read the following from Hunt's site, and it is clear while both physical and digital can co-exist, the physical media-only crowd is going to find it a much tougher road in the future:

We’ve also learned from Paramount that they’ve recently released Byron Haskin’s original 1953 War of the Worlds in 4K... but only digitally (on iTunes and FandangoNOW). They haven’t released the film in Blu-ray at all, much less physical 4K... and we’ve heard a huge number of complaints about that from Bits readers. What’s more, the studio has just announced the 4K Digital only release of Frank Capra’s It’s a Wonderful Life on 11/20. Both films include high dynamic range in addition to native 4K scans. The latter films makes more sense, as it’s been released many times on Blu-ray. But the lack of physical media for War of the Worlds is really irritating to many enthusiasts.

Well, it's more than an irritant; it's a simple declaration that physical media may no longer be a viable release option for many new UHD restorations/transfers of well-known catalog titles.

To me, all of this stems from the failure of major players to get on board with a single platform for UHD. Samsung refused to license DV, Sony dragged their feet on their implementation of DV for both TVs and players, ultimately pushing Oppo out of the space.

Today, all of the UHD player options are compromised re: format, tech, stability and price.

Compare the above to Apple TV 4k, and weep for the physical media-only crowd.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by Vilya

a player that cost $1747 when adjusted for inflation.

Cheapskate , my CLD-900 cost almost $1,100 (almost $2,600 today). It was a big, heavy mother. IMO, it makes high end UHD Blu-ray players a bargain.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Here is your digital future. I predict this cheaper option will be smartphone only.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/12/...stings-markets

It starts. This option will be rolled out internationally shorter after imo.

The article that you linked to does not even mention the word "phone" anywhere. At all. It instead says that Netflix is possibly planning to offer a lower cost tier of service in India.

"the company has yet to formally announce the cheaper plan at all."

The average annual net income in India is only $1,977.29. It only makes sense that Netflix wants to offer a plan priced more in line with what the average person there can afford, not to mention that the growth potential in a country of that population is vast. Netflix stands to gain 100 million customers- that's their motivation.

There is absolutely nothing in this article that even remotely suggests or implies that people will be watching content exclusively with a phone. It says nothing about a Netflix plan that is restricted to phones. There is ZERO reason for Netflix to care one iota about what device you watch their content with; they just want more subscribers. Restricting viewing to a single type of device does not help them in any way, thus they are not doing it. Once again, you see imaginary threats everywhere you look.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

Cheapskate , my CLD-900 cost almost $1,100 (almost $2,600 today). It was a big, heavy mother. IMO, it makes high end UHD Blu-ray players a bargain.

[Show spoiler]

Maybe I'm just a better shopper? You may have adopted this tech earlier than I did, too.

I still own my Pioneer DVL-909. It was my second LD player and one of the first that could play DVDs. It is connected to my home theater to this day. It is a little moody about switching from side A to side B; it always wants to skip about 1 minute into side B playback, same time mark every time and with every disc. I discovered there is an internal adjustment that I can make to correct this, but it a very sensitive adjustment. I haven't been motivated enough to attempt it. Instead, I just flip the disc over manually like I had to do with my first LD player.

I have backed up almost all of my remaining laserdiscs to dvd, so I seldom use it, anyways. It makes a great conversation piece as people often ask me what that monstrously big device does. It weighs 37 pounds if I recall correctly.

[avs commenter]

Originally Posted by Musashi

True enough about the internet, though I'd like to think this site generally has more reasonable conversation than a great many others out there.

I don't take anyone's preference personally, and I think it's clear that in the many years to come, there will be physical movie discs, there will be downloadable options, and there will be streaming services. That's the future. I do not see a digital only future happening, and for it to happen would not be progress, but a shameful step backwards.

To be fair to Steedeel regarding taking things personally, you have quips like these, where people tried to make it more personal:







All I got out of those was "nice straw man."

And those shots were all fired after Steedeel basically called anybody using digital a fool and not a 'true film fan'. Don't waste your time feeling sorry for someone like this.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by avs commenter

And those shots were all fired after Steedeel basically called anybody using digital a fool and not a 'true film fan'. Don't waste your time feeling sorry for someone like this.

Ah, not a True HT fan? Not the same thing. As for the fool thing? Can you link that post please?

[avs commenter]

All your quotes:

We are going backwards with digital.

You guys are not only losing AV quality but throwing good money away for space dust

I can’t read any more stupidity.

All for the sake of (imo) lazy people who can’t get off their arses to pop a disc in

It’s a insult and a kick in the teeth to all serious film collectors

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by cgpublic

Upfront, we purchase both physical and digital media for films, in addition to subscribing to Amazon Prime, Netflix, FilmStruck. For music, I once split my purchasing between physical and digital (iTunes), but since Apple Music hit the scene we purchased a family subscription and never looked back.

I love physical media and enjoy collecting Criterion and other specialty label releases, along with unique packaging. But a few days ago I read the following from Hunt's site, and it is clear while both physical and digital can co-exist, the physical media-only crowd is going to find it a much tougher road in the future:

Well, it's more than an irritant; it's a simple declaration that physical media may no longer be a viable release option for many new UHD restorations/transfers of well-known catalog titles.

To me, all of this stems from the failure of major players to get on board with a single platform for UHD. Samsung refused to license DV, Sony dragged their feet on their implementation of DV for both TVs and players, ultimately pushing Oppo out of the space.

Today, all of the UHD player options are compromised re: format, tech, stability and price.

Compare the above to Apple TV 4k, and weep for the physical media-only crowd.

You need not cry for me, Argentina. I almost always find what I want, one way or another. Persistence pays off.

Paramount's actions are annoying for physical media collectors, but there is certainly more than one way to look at their strategy.

A digital only release might just be a way to gauge interest in these catalog titles in 4K before deciding upon a physical release. And maybe not, too. Still, 4K disc sales are experiencing explosive growth and if that continues I can easily see Paramount releasing these titles on disc in the future. It's money on the table just waiting to be scooped up.

Regardless of what Paramount does in the future, there is no denying that 4K disc sales are hot. 87% sales growth is phenomenal. I have no fears for physical media as a whole. Maybe its wishful thinking on my part, but I remain confident just the same.

As for the rollout of 4K tech being a clusterf***; that is an understatement. They similarly botched the rollout of 3D blu-ray and 3D TVs as well. Before that even we had the HD-DVD and blu-ray war. The VHS vs. Beta war further back still. Getting all of these tech companies to agree on a set of standards has been beyond frustrating. They don't seem to learn from their history worth a damn.

As for Oppo, their parent company (BBK Electronics- a Chinese multinational corp.) said their reason for abandoning all home entertainment products, including their headphones and headphone amplifiers, was to focus on their core business, which is smartphones. Oppo is a major player in the Asian smartphone market and the fourth largest smartphone manufacturer in the world.

My Oppo 203 4K disc player has been perfectly stable a year into my ownership of it. I hope it stays that way. I am quite happy with it.

Personally, I will never join the Apple eco-system. I have read some of their EULAs and I do not agree with their one-sided and ever changeable terms. For me, a purchase must mean I get a tangible object over which I have full control. I will also never allow myself to be reliant upon an ISP, nor server farms, for my home entertainment. My ISP is more unstable than a ward filled with the criminally insane. The only thing I can count on them for are price hikes- they excel at that.

[cgpublic]

Originally Posted by Vilya

You need not cry for me, Argentina. I almost always find what I want, one way or another.

Paramount's actions are annoying for physical media collectors, but there is certainly more than one way to look at their strategy.

A digital only release might just be a way to gauge interest in these catalog titles in 4K before deciding upon a physical release. And maybe not, too. Still, 4K disc sales are experiencing explosive growth and if that continues I can easily see Paramount releasing these titles on disc in the future. It's money on the table just waiting to be scooped up.

Regardless of what Paramount does in the future, there is no denying that 4K disc sales are hot. 87% sales growth is phenomenal. I have no fears for physical media as a whole. Maybe its wishful thinking on my part, but I remain confident just the same.

As for the rollout of 4K tech being a clusterf***; that is an understatement. They similarly botched the rollout of 3D blu-ray and 3D TVs as well. Before that even we had the HD-DVD and blu-ray war. The VHS vs. Beta war further back still. Getting all of these tech companies to agree on a set of standards has been beyond frustrating. They don't seem to learn from their history worth a damn.

As for Oppo, their parent company (BBK Electronics- a Chinese multinational corp.) said their reason for abandoning all home entertainment products, including their headphones and headphone amplifiers, was to focus on their core business, which is smartphones. Oppo is a major player in the Asian smartphone market and the fourth largest smartphone manufacturer in the world.

My Oppo 203 4K disc player has been perfectly stable a year into my ownership of it. I hope it stays that way. I am quite happy with it.

Personally, I will never join the Apple eco-system. I have read some of their EULAs and I do not agree with their one-sided and ever changeable terms. For me, a purchase must mean I get a tangible object over which I have full control. I will also never allow myself to be reliant upon an ISP, nor server farms, for my home entertainment. My ISP is more unstable than a ward filled with the criminally insane. The only thing I can count on them for are price hikes- they excel at that.

To be clear, this isn't about you and me, i.e., our respective preferences, our respective internet access, etc.

This is about choice, today and tomorrow.

Today, you don't have decide to purchase the new 4K War of the Worlds transfer in a digital or disc format, because there's only one format available, and that is digital.

Likewise, when I wanted to purchase First Reformed, it was available in 4K Dolby Vision for digital, but not for disc; it was only available in Blu, and you only had to pay a few dollars more for the inferior format.

So, all of us can post our preferences and intended behaviors, but the industry, not you or I, will decide what titles to make available in which formats and at what price.

Furthermore, you can choose not enter the Apple ecosystem and provide whatever reasons you wish, but let's be clear you will either spend far more to access UHD content, or watch less of it, combined with less availability and delayed access, relative to digital media. The Apple TV 4k can be purchased for $169, and we are just now getting UHD DV players dropping into a similar price range.

On a last note, yes, Oppo did state they exited the consumer A/V business to focus on phone manufacturing. What they stated publicly and the reality that the market collapsed for $600 Blu-ray players in the face of digital streaming and Sony dragging their feet re: DV after Oppo spent millions to incorporate DV is a given, as is the fact their phone business is also under attack and they could no longer afford the risk/losses in the consumer A/V space.

[avs commenter]

Dolby Vision is huge for me. I no longer buy discs that don't include it.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by cgpublic

To be clear, this isn't about you and me, i.e., our respective preferences, our respective internet access, etc.

This is about choice, today and tomorrow.

Today, you don't have decide to purchase the new 4K War of the Worlds transfer in a digital or disc format, because there's only one format available, and that is digital.

Likewise, when I wanted to purchase First Reformed, it was available in 4K Dolby Vision for digital, but not for disc; it was only available in Blu, and you only had to pay a few dollars more for the inferior format.

So, all of us can post our preferences and intended behaviors, but the industry, not you or I, will decide what titles to make available in which formats and at what price.

Furthermore, you can choose not enter the Apple ecosystem and provide whatever reasons you wish, but let's be clear you will either spend far more to access UHD content, or watch less of it, combined with less availability and delayed access, relative to digital media. The Apple TV 4k can be purchased for $169, and we are just now getting UHD DV players dropping into a similar price range.

On a last note, yes, Oppo did state they exited the consumer A/V business to focus on phone manufacturing. What they stated publicly and the reality that the market collapsed for $600 Blu-ray players in the face of digital streaming and Sony dragging their feet re: DV after Oppo spent millions to incorporate DV is a given, as is the fact their phone business is also under attack and they could no longer afford the risk/losses in the consumer A/V space.

Certainly, the film industry can decide what products they offer, and when, and how they are accessed, but do not discount the power of the consumer. Ultimately, the consumer must be satisfied in order to succeed. We are not here to satisfy them; if they want our money, they must satisfy us. Supply is bound at the hip to consumer demand.

This particular consumer will not purchase digital content accessed via the internet; this particular consumer will only buy a physical product. I believe there are enough people like me who want a physical copy that the market will choose to meet our collective demand. It's money ripe for the harvesting if they are smart enough to reap it. Physical media sales are at $2.79 billion after three quarters; that's still a lot of money and I am sure the industry is happy to have it.

I have the 1953 War Of The Worlds on dvd; it will likely suffice until a better physical release comes along. If I get tired of waiting, there are other tools at my disposal.

I already own a sizable library, so waiting for a physical release relative to a digital one does not impact me very much. With 4K discs selling so well, I expect to see many more titles being offered. Who gets it first is not very important to me.

From my perspective, a blu-ray is a better purchase choice than a 4K digital title for the actual ownership aspect afforded by the blu-ray alone. Maybe it's an old fogey thing, but I expect to own the things that I buy. No EULAs, no strings, just that two sentence FBI warning that I have known for decades.

Digital streaming services will remain a rental source for me as I see that as their main benefit. I can always rent a title if I am impatient for a physical release, too. I do have options.

There remains a market for expensive 4K disc players; it never "collapsed." Oppo did not vacate due to a lack of one. It may have become a bit crowded, though. Cambridge, Panasonic, and soon Pioneer are all offering high-end players that cost as much or more than the Oppo 203 did. Further, the revenue generated by their home entertainment products division was minuscule in comparison to the revenue from their smartphone business. It wasn't just 4K disc players that they dropped; they dropped everything in that division: their headphones and their amps, too. BBK seemed to see it as nothing but a distraction to their primary core business.

[cheez avenger]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Lol. You honestly think it’s going to remain cheaper than cable? Don’t know what to say to you.ALSO WHAT PLANET ARE YOU ON ASSOCIATING MENTALHEALTH WITH SERIOUS COLLECTORS? I mean, seriously.

It’s the same tired claims of hoarders etc.. It isn’t hard to store discs neatly in a couple of display cabinets either side of my HT. Neat, efficient and far from a hoarders place.

I can’t read any more stupidity.

Then don't. I've tried keeping it civil but you're the worst kind of elitist. You want it your way and your way is the only way - there's no room for anything else. You must be real fun at social functions. Oh wait, you probably don't go to those. Your bride is your Blu-ray collection. You really need to get your head out of you know where.

[cheez avenger]

Originally Posted by Vilya

I am glad you make some physical purchases; a little support for physical is better than none at all.

As a sizable collector myself, I do bristle a little at mental health issues being mentioned as a cause behind collecting behavior. I am not a hoarder because I have a lot of movies on disc anymore than a digital collector is one because they have a lot of digital titles. We are both just enjoying a hobby in the manner of our choosing. Naturally, I feel my choice is the better one, but I am not offended by you making a different one.

In my limited experiences, I have found that most people collect something, from cookie jars to guns. I have only met one person whom I would truly call a minimalist. This person sells his house about once every decade and most everything in it, which was never much in the first place, and then starts again anew with a mostly empty house. Is that mental illness or just a different view on the importance of material objects? I am not qualified to say, but he seems to be happy and he is wealthy by most measures.

I cut the chord as far as cable TV is concerned back in 2014. I don't miss it at all. I now have an over the air antenna instead and between it and the free IPTV channels I get, I am very satisfied. I rent from Vudu occasionally and I cyclically subscribe to Netflix, cancelling and resubscribing as the desire for it waxes and wanes.

I use both services to sample content that I am curious about, but if I like what I watch I then buy a physical copy. Thanks to having a region free player, I can shop worldwide for my discs and that has improved title availability substantially.

I think digital will continue to grow and that physical will decline to a point where it will eventually plateau. I believe there will always be enough people to support it to ensure that it remains a choice for those who value what it alone offers.

At the rate that digital purchases are growing now, they will overtake physical purchases inside of two years time if that growth rate is sustained and if disc purchases continue to decline at the rate that they have been. I am not happy about this probable outcome, but I am confident that physical media will remain viable.

That's a good balance. I do that with vinyl, as well, but even then, it's only for the titles that I truly want. I also do it, to an extent, with books. But with a library card, why would I want to spend on reading material when I can get it for free? I also have a Kindle, so I use that a lot in addition to various book reading apps. It's never been a better time to be a purveyor of media but to be this close minded, like you know who, is silly as hell.

If he's content with his physical media then great, but to say that digital hd is dying or whoever likes digital media in general is a knob, well, that's not ok.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by cheez avenger

Then don't. I've tried keeping it civil but you're the worst kind of elitist. You want it your way and your way is the only way - there's no room for anything else. You must be real fun at social functions. Oh wait, you probably don't go to those. Your bride is your Blu-ray collection. You really need to get your head out of you know where.

You were not keeping it civil. You started off with a (imo) vulgar post and then implied i didnt have lady in my life. You sound like you are a teenager concerned with what others think about you and implying that you wouldnt get sex if a girl thought you were a film collector or had collectable stuff.

I had you sussed from that point onwards.

[cheez avenger]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

You were not keeping it civil. You started off with a (imo) vulgar post and then implied i didnt have lady in my life. You sound like you are a teenager concerned with what others think about you and implying that you wouldnt get sex if a girl thought you were a film collector or had collectable stuff.

I had you sussed from that point onwards.

I never implied it was you that I was talking about. I was making general remarks.

And the way you're ranting off now, I think I may be a tad older than you, so I'd scale back your comments on my maturity level.

As far as being afraid of what others think, again in context, you're way off, but that's ok. I'm not going to burst a vessel if you can't understand what I am saying.