Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by alchav21

Penguin where have you been hiding, glad to have you back. Yes Streaming Digital has come a long way, but the Average Person is very confused. There are so many options to viewing content on your UHD TV, that people just don't know what to do. Most are just plugging in dongles, and hoping for the best. I have never been big on Wireless when it comes to Streaming to your UHD TV.

So, Netflix has nearly 10 million subscribers in the U.K alone, but nobody knows about it? Right, ok.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

Everything both of us said was assumptions. You assume that people looked at the Blu-ray and the DVD and did a cost benefit analysis. I assume they didn't.

True, but the assumptions I made did not cast any aspersions on them. Yours do precisely that.

Tell anyone that they do not care about quality regarding their purchases in most any category they shop and see if they receive that remark as anything other than an insult.

[PenguinInfinity]

Originally Posted by Vilya

True, but the assumptions I made did not cast any aspersions on them. Yours do precisely that.

My initial statement didn't cast any aspersions. Some people don't care about the picture quality of their movies so they buy DVDs. Nothing about that is a character flaw.

It was your line of thinking that cast them in a worse light in my eyes. The idea that they DO care about quality but are willing to settle for an inferior product for a few less bucks (or even worse to get it slightly sooner) was where the judgment came in.

Originally Posted by Vilya

Tell anyone that they do not care about quality regarding their purchases in most any category they shop and see if they receive that remark as anything other than an insult.

I wouldn't find it insulting.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

But how can streaming be the future (as you so often claim) if the average person doesn't know anything about it?

Those who are streaming are primarily doing so because it's cheap. With lots of different streaming services popping up that will no longer be the case so many customers will have to rethink if any of them are really worth it. Personally I expect many of the streaming services (even the big ones) to fail miserably.

Netflix is already billions of dollars in debt due to their continued overspending on content and they are likely to lose customers rather than continue gaining them over the next couple of years with all the competition from Disney and Warner's new streaming services.

Overall streaming has been extremely bad for business for all the studios. They've lost tens of billions of dollars from people switching from expensive cable packages to cheap streaming subscriptions. And those cheap streaming services have also caused most people to value individual movie purchases (both physical and digital) a lot less too. Most movies now drop down to under $10 within a month or two.

Though as a customer it's hard to see that as all bad. My collection has more than doubled in the last 3 years do to so many movies being available for $3-$6 each. Even 4K Blu-rays have rarely cost me more than $10 each.

In any case it's very hard to predict what the future will bring for streaming. Will increased competition cause most customers to become accustomed to having multiple streaming subscriptions and paying high prices again like they were with cable? Or will all the competition cause most of them to fail and studios to turn back to their more consistently profitable products like physical media? Only time will tell.

The same thing will happen then as it has happened in the past. People will pay what they can afford. Two or maybe at the max three subscriptions but more than likely a couple of free services (with ads) also. I believe even the top services will add a ad-supported tier to their service. It’s a sure way of maintaining customers. Just to be clear, I mean there will be both options. Bundles will be a thing also when we have two or three dominating the landscape. You can have HBO for a massive discount IF you subscribe to Warnermedia or choose AT&T for example.

[PenguinInfinity]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

The same thing will happen then as it has happened in the past. People will pay what they can afford. Two or maybe at the max three subscriptions but more than likely a couple of free services (with ads) also. I believe even the top services will add a ad supported tier to their service. It’s a sure way of maintaining customers. Just to be clear, I mean there will be both options.

What they can afford is widely variable. Plenty of people were spending $100-$200 per month on cable or satellite TV before switching to much cheaper streaming services. They could obviously afford to spend that but doesn't mean they'd be willing to spend that again.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

My initial statement didn't cast any aspersions. Some people don't care about the picture quality of their movies so they buy DVDs. Nothing about that is a character flaw.

It was your line of thinking that cast them in a worse light in my eyes. The idea that they DO care about quality but are willing to settle for an inferior product for a few less bucks (or even worse to get it slightly sooner) was where the judgment came in.



I wouldn't.

It does not constitute a character flaw, but it is pretty close to saying they have no taste.

There is no shame in living within one's means or sticking to a budget or saving up for luxury purchases or even simply saving money wherever possible. It does not mean they are settling for an "inferior" product, another negative descriptor, just that they value other things more, by choice, by necessity, or both.

I bet you wouldn't tell someone they buy inferior products, either.

A human resources manager once told me, and others, that the intentions behind our words do not matter. The reactions to them do.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

What they can afford is widely variable. Plenty of people were spending $100-$200 per month on cable or satellite TV before switching to much cheaper streaming services. They could obviously afford to spend that but doesn't mean they'd be willing to spend that again.

Which is where the extra value from discounts comes in, or those ad-supported options.

[PenguinInfinity]

Originally Posted by Vilya

There is no shame in living within one's means or sticking to a budget or saving up for luxury purchases or even simply saving money wherever possible. It does not mean they are settling for an "inferior" product, another negative descriptor, just that they value other things more, by choice, by necessity, or both.

I bet you wouldn't tell someone they buy inferior products, either.

I mean I wouldn't be insulted, not that I wouldn't tell someone they don't care about quality or buy inferior products.

There are plenty of categories in which I don't care about quality and buy inferior products. But I would never buy an inferior product in a category that I do care about quality.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Vilya

There is no shame in living within one's means or sticking to a budget or saving up for luxury purchases or even simply saving money wherever possible. It does not mean they are settling for an "inferior" product, another negative descriptor, just that they value other things more, by choice, by necessity, or both.

I bet you wouldn't tell someone they buy inferior products, either.

If you love w hobby enough, you make it happen. By depriving oneself of higher quality for the sake of £5 doesn’t sound like devotion to film to me? Casual film fan, sure.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

If you love w hobby enough, you make it happen. By depriving oneself of higher quality for the sake of £5 doesn’t sound like devotion to film to me? Casual film fan, sure.

Ah, but your response is a more measured one. While you assume that a few pounds are trivial for everyone, you do allow for the possibility that people can still care about something, just to varying degrees.

[PenguinInfinity]

Originally Posted by Vilya

Ah, but your response is a more measured one. While you assume that a few pounds are trivial for everyone, you do allow for the possibility that people can still care about something, just to varying degrees.

Caring about movies and caring about picture quality are two different things. There's nothing contradictory about a passionate film fan who doesn't care about picture quality. They just aren't focused on all the same things we are.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

I mean I wouldn't be insulted, not that I wouldn't tell someone they don't care about quality or buy inferior products.

There are plenty of categories in which I don't care about quality and buy inferior products. But I would never buy an inferior product in a category that I do care about quality.

You care about the quality of your TV and AV system and you have admitted that you do not own the very best TV or AV system, so, you have, in fact, bought inferior products in a category where quality does matter to you.

Almost all of us have.

[PenguinInfinity]

Originally Posted by Vilya

You care about the quality of your TV and AV system and you have admitted that you do not own the very best TV or AV system, so, you have, in fact, bought inferior products in a category where quality does matter to you.

Almost all of us have.

But not when the price difference is small. And especially not when the literal BEST version is only a few dollars more. To get the best TV or sound system would likely cost millions of dollars and require constant upgrades. To get the best version of an individual movie usually only costs an extra few dollars and only an upgrade once or twice a decade (at most).

It's also future-proof. Every time I upgrade my equipment all of my movies and TV shows are already well suited to use the new equipment. The source is always far more important than the equipment it's played on. Playing a DVD on a 4K TV (when a Blu-ray or 4K Blu-ray is available) is just crazy.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

Caring about movies and caring about picture quality are two different things. There's nothing contradictory about a passionate film fan who doesn't care about picture quality. They just aren't focused on all the same things we are.

I have never met a film fan who did not care about picture quality; maybe you have, but I haven't.

Aside from that, the fact that a film fan can assign and rank criteria as they see fit while retaining their fan credentials is every bit as true for the consumers of home video.

Consumers of home video products can assign their own importance to each aspect of their purchase decision. Saving money, value, etc. can be more important than getting the best pq and aq quality possible WITHOUT assuming they care nothing for playback quality at all. Everyone expects a certain degree of quality in the products that they buy.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

But not when the price difference is small. And especially not when the literal BEST version is only a few dollars more. To get the best TV or sound system would likely cost millions of dollars and require constant upgrades. To get the best version of an individual movie usually only costs an extra few dollars and only an upgrade once or twice a decade (at most).

It's also future-proof. Every time I upgrade my equipment all of my movies and TV shows will already be well suited to use the new equipment.

So now DVD customers who happen to own a 4K TV and watch their DVDs on them, the main type of TV available now, are crazy? That is nothing BUT insulting.

DVDs look really good on 4K TVs, so color me cuckoo Dr. Skinner.

What is "small" to you could be large to someone else and vice versa.

You did not just fail to buy the very best, few can afford that, you failed to even buy the next step up, or two steps, or three steps. You settled, compromised, and made your peace with it.

Allow others to do the same..with ALL of their purchases.

[PenguinInfinity]

Originally Posted by Vilya

What is "small" to you could be large to someone else and vice versa.

You did not just fail to buy the very best, few can afford that, you failed to even buy the next step up, or two steps, or three steps. You settled, compromised, and made your peace with it.

Allow others to do the same..with ALL of their purchases.

There's the issue that started this whole conversation: people buying DVDs instead of Blu-ray has made many titles only available on DVD.

Movies are different from other products because they aren't interchangeable. If one company stops making high-end Blu-ray players (like Oppo did) then other companies can always pick up the slack. But when Fox stopped releasing Archer and Fargo on Blu-ray due to low sales no other company had the ability to do so.

Everyone's purchasing habits affect everyone else. That's the reason why many of us have a problem with digital. More sales for digital means less sales for physical media and therefore less content available on physical media. The same applies to DVD vs Blu-ray, it's just much less of a concern for me because DVD doesn't have the fundamental flaws that are present in all streaming and downloads.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

There's the issue that started this whole conversation: people buying DVDs instead of Blu-ray has made many titles only available on DVD.

Movies are different from other products because they aren't interchangeable. If one company stops making high-end Blu-ray players (like Oppo did) then other companies can always pick up the slack. But when Fox stopped releasing Archer and Fargo on Blu-ray due to low sales no other company had the ability to do so.

Everyone's purchasing habits affect everyone else. That's the reason why many of us have a problem with digital. More sales for digital means less sales for physical media and therefore less content available on physical media. The same applies to DVD vs Blu-ray, it's just much less of a concern for me because DVD doesn't have the fundamental flaws that are present in all streaming and downloads.

I can not be a bigger advocate for physical media than I already am. I wish everyone valued blu-rays and 4K discs as much as I do, but I don't get to make that decision and nor do you.

Ultimately, every product, every service, must succeed or fail on its own merits or lack thereof. The market decides; we each get to vote with our dollars (and pounds) but that is the limit of our individual influence.

I certainly can't blame an industry for making a product that sells and DVDs sell. Thankfully, so do the better formats and well enough that most of what I buy are on these better formats. I am not above buying a DVD if that is my only choice and again I will tell you that DVDs often look pretty good on my 4K TV.

I am too old to wait for everything to come to a better format. If I want it, I get the best edition that I can find or that I am aware of. Ironically, it seems that the best way for something to get a better format release is for me to buy it first on DVD.

I bought The Heroes Of Telemark on DVD this past November and now it gets a blu-ray release this week. It rarely fails.

The morning crew will have lots to read thanks to you and I, if they bother, but I gotta go to bed; It's 5 A.M. here!

[PenguinInfinity]

Originally Posted by Vilya

I can not be a bigger advocate for physical media than I already am. I wish everyone valued blu-rays and 4K discs as much as I do, but I don't get to make that decision and nor do you.

Ultimately, every product, every service, must succeed or fail on its own merits or lack thereof. The market decides; we each get to vote with our dollars (and pounds) but that is the limit of our individual influence.

I certainly can't blame an industry for making a product that sells and DVDs sell. Thankfully, so do the better formats and well enough that most of what I buy are on these better formats. I am not above buying a DVD if that is my only choice and again I will tell you that DVDs often look pretty good on my 4K TV.

I am too old to wait for everything to come to a better format. If I want it, I get the best edition that I can find or that I am aware of. Ironically, it seems that the best way for something to get a better format release is for me to buy it first on DVD.

I bought The Heroes Of Telemark on DVD this past November and now it gets a blu-ray release this March. It rarely fails.

I obviously don't have any major issues with DVD, I buy plenty of them. If we don't buy DVDs (when no Blu-ray exists) then many titles won't get physical releases at all and that's drastically worse then a DVD-only release.

But when it comes to digital I'm not blaming the industry, I'm blaming the customers. I don't tell companies that they should stop making products that sell. I tell people about the problems with digital and hope they will choose not to support it.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by PenguinInfinity

I obviously don't have any major issues with DVD, I buy plenty of them. If we don't buy DVDs (when no Blu-ray exists) then many titles won't get physical releases at all and that's drastically worse then a DVD-only release.

But when it comes to digital I'm not blaming the industry, I'm blaming the customers. I don't tell companies that they should stop making products that sell. I tell people about the problems with digital and hope they will choose not to support it.

Unfortunately, blame does not change minds, does it? All we can do is extoll the virtues of physical media as best we are able and hope that people make an informed choice.

Many choose a mix of both and I will even accept that as progress.

[PenguinInfinity]

Originally Posted by Vilya

The morning crew will have lots to read thanks to you and I, if they bother, but I gotta go to bed; It's 5 A.M. here!

I just realized we've discussed this for 4 hours. I thought I was making a pretty innocuous comment, I never thought there was much to debate.

Originally Posted by Vilya

Unfortunately, blame does not change minds, does it? All we can do is extoll the virtues of physical media as best we are able and hope that people make an informed choice.

Many choose a mix of both and I will even accept that as progress.

Progress is an odd way to put it since physical media came before streaming. But I guess it's a case of two steps back, one step forward.