Ali (2001)

[Shingster]

Haven't seen the film in many a year but the Ernie Terrell fight was an important inclusion imo and probably the most memorable "sports" moment outside of the fight at the end: "What's my name, *****?". The Cleveland Williams fight shouldn't be much of a loss as it'll only be of significance to boxing fans who may or may not consider it to be the pinnacle of his career, a kind of "what if" moment had he not lost a little of his skills after the prolonged absence from the sport.

[MJD64]

I still consider this lesser Michael Mann but will probably pick it up at some point as it completes my Mann on blu collection...and I wish my 80's laserdisc of The Keep hadn't succumbed to laser rot as it looks increasingly unlikely it will be debuting on current physical media at any point.

I find myself intrigued that Mann is contemplating a sci-fi movie. Apart from The Keep it would be a rare foray into fantasy for him, though I've no doubt a human element would come through.

[Jumpman]

Wait a second...the Cleveland Williams fight is not in any of the cuts of this film. Yeah, the Ernie Terrell fight got cut out of this version of the film but none of the cuts had a Cleveland Williams fight. Now, the director's cut added the 2nd Frazier fight and that's in this cut as well. The Quarry fight is in all three cuts of the film. So, yeah, I'm not sure what Michael Mann or any of us are talking about. There never was a Cleveland Williams fight in the film.

[Shingster]

Must admit I can't remember it, but I can't remember most of the minor fights!

[Jumpman]

Originally Posted by Shingster

Must admit I can't remember it, but I can't remember most of the minor fights!

Yeah...I just fast forwarded through all three cuts of the film and the Ernie Terrell fight is the one that got cut out. There never was a Cleveland Williams fight...

I will quadruple check again but yeah, don't think there was a Williams fight in any cut of this film.

[Shingster]

Well the Cleveland Williams fight was directly before Ernie's so it should be easy to seek out if it was there, and IMO it's not exactly noteworthy from a dramatic standpoint because there wasn't any personal beef going on between them nor was Cleveland considered the force he once was before the shooting incident. It's only noteworthy to boxing fans because it exists in glorious HD on YouTube and Ali's performance was truly on another level, but your average viewer would take that for granted regardless of which opponent you show him beating.

[Jumpman]

Originally Posted by Shingster

Well the Cleveland Williams fight was directly before Ernie's so it should be easy to seek out if it was there, and IMO it's not exactly noteworthy from a dramatic standpoint because there wasn't any personal beef going on between them nor was Cleveland considered the force he once was before the shooting incident. It's only noteworthy to boxing fans because it exists in glorious HD on YouTube and Ali's performance was truly on another level, but your average viewer would take that for granted regardless of which opponent you show him beating.

I just checked all 3 cuts and Mann never included the Williams fight. The Terrell fight is the one that got cut...

[HD Goofnut]

Anyone having trouble redeeming the UV of this? I have tried it at Sony and VUDU and it says invalid code at each site.

[trip66]

So, I finally got this (in store at best buy for $14.99) and gave it a spin last night.

I took a look at movie censorship to check out all all the little tinkered things between the TC and the DC to compare to the new cut. I came to the conclusion that this new cut is basically the 2004 director's cut, but with the argument Ali has with his father about his name is cut (which sucks, because its one of the only scenes his father really has) and the fight scene as discussed throughout this thread.

Also, if someone wants to double check, it seems like the fight with the smaller white guy (can't remember his name) is shortened. I thought there was some actual boxing in that scene, and now its only the end of the fight where the white guy gives up the fight and you see him embrace Ali and whispers some unheard words to him.

Also, Mann included a subtitle to the name of the dictator who says, "It's done!" in the DC scene. I also don't remember the scene with the dictator, Bruce McGill's character, and Idi Amin in a brief dinner scene, so that might be new.

But whats really weird, is during the DC scene (with Bruce McGill, and the dictator telling a bunch of people "It's done" has a weird scene transition where its almost paused during some gunshots and then reverts to regular motion. Its really weird. I have never liked that newly added scene in the director's cut and its even weirder now. I was hoping it would get axed, but its still there.

There is a also some weird audio dropouts. There were about 3 that I noticed, the same sort that was present in Blackhat.

There is also a new ending title card reading "Muhammad Ali 1942-2016". Also really weird in a movie made in 2001.

I'm trying to remember the ending, but wasn't there scenes of a street in the rain with people waving? In the new cut, there is a brief shot of it during the celebration at the end (why is it even there?), but then it goes to a freeze frame of Ali with his hands up in the ring. I thought the ending had shots of the street before going to the end credits. Its odd that there is a random shot of a street during all the celebrating in the ring.

In the end, I still like the TC better, but love the scene in the DC with Ali and the kid (I'm gonna hit you three times). One of the scenes from the trailer that wasn't in the TC but added in the DC and still there for the new cut.

Also, other deleted scenes from the trailer are still gone. The extended scene with Jamie Foxx ("but that don't rhyme"), the "your lucky he's holding me back" scene with Angelo Dundee at a press conference, and Ali showing his muscles proclaiming, "Isn't this the perfect specimen of a man right here?".

[Malibu]

Does anybody know if this edition of Ali is region free?? Thanks in advance!

[HD Goofnut]

Originally Posted by trip66

So, I finally got this (in store at best buy for $14.99) and gave it a spin last night.

I took a look at movie censorship to check out all all the little tinkered things between the TC and the DC to compare to the new cut. I came to the conclusion that this new cut is basically the 2004 director's cut, but with the argument Ali has with his father about his name is cut (which sucks, because its one of the only scenes his father really has) and the fight scene as discussed throughout this thread.

Also, if someone wants to double check, it seems like the fight with the smaller white guy (can't remember his name) is shortened. I thought there was some actual boxing in that scene, and now its only the end of the fight where the white guy gives up the fight and you see him embrace Ali and whispers some unheard words to him.

Also, Mann included a subtitle to the name of the dictator who says, "It's done!" in the DC scene. I also don't remember the scene with the dictator, Bruce McGill's character, and Idi Amin in a brief dinner scene, so that might be new.

But whats really weird, is during the DC scene (with Bruce McGill, and the dictator telling a bunch of people "It's done" has a weird scene transition where its almost paused during some gunshots and then reverts to regular motion. Its really weird. I have never liked that newly added scene in the director's cut and its even weirder now. I was hoping it would get axed, but its still there.

There is a also some weird audio dropouts. There were about 3 that I noticed, the same sort that was present in Blackhat.

There is also a new ending title card reading "Muhammad Ali 1942-2016". Also really weird in a movie made in 2001.

I'm trying to remember the ending, but wasn't there scenes of a street in the rain with people waving? In the new cut, there is a brief shot of it during the celebration at the end (why is it even there?), but then it goes to a freeze frame of Ali with his hands up in the ring. I thought the ending had shots of the street before going to the end credits. Its odd that there is a random shot of a street during all the celebrating in the ring.

In the end, I still like the TC better, but love the scene in the DC with Ali and the kid (I'm gonna hit you three times). One of the scenes from the trailer that wasn't in the TC but added in the DC and still there for the new cut.

Also, other deleted scenes from the trailer are still gone. The extended scene with Jamie Foxx ("but that don't rhyme"), the "your lucky he's holding me back" scene with Angelo Dundee at a press conference, and Ali showing his muscles proclaiming, "Isn't this the perfect specimen of a man right here?".

Sounds like The Last of the Mohicans and Heat. Mann has a horrible habit with tinkering with his films. He's not George Lucas, but still.

[tenia]

Originally Posted by HD Goofnut

Sounds like The Last of the Mohicans and Heat. Mann has a horrible habit with tinkering with his films. He's not George Lucas, but still.

Yes, it has become laughably ridiculous. Ali is probably the best example about Mann's habit of heavily tinkering with his movies. I remember when the DC DVD came out and seeing all the changes despite having almost no time differences.

I thought "how come he didn't do this for the theatrical release ?".

I get that some directors might take a step back over time and think "hum, this might have worked better like this, actually !" but when it's so heavy, it made you think the first edit was carelessly done.

[HD Goofnut]

Originally Posted by tenia

Yes, it has become laughably ridiculous. Ali is probably the best example about Mann's habit of heavily tinkering with his movies. I remember when the DC DVD came out and seeing all the changes despite having almost no time differences.

I thought "how come he didn't do this for the theatrical release ?".

I get that some directors might take a step back over time and think "hum, this might have worked better like this, actually !" but when it's so heavy, it made you think the first edit was carelessly done.

I actually still have the DVD of his original director's cut of The Last of the Mohicans because I prefer it to his final cut that is on the BD. It's irritating for sure.

[Blu_Monster]

Originally Posted by tenia

Yes, it has become laughably ridiculous. Ali is probably the best example about Mann's habit of heavily tinkering with his movies. I remember when the DC DVD came out and seeing all the changes despite having almost no time differences.

I thought "how come he didn't do this for the theatrical release ?".

I get that some directors might take a step back over time and think "hum, this might have worked better like this, actually !" but when it's so heavy, it made you think the first edit was carelessly done.

Mann's definitely not careless. If anything he's a perfectionist to a fault, evidenced by his endless tinkering whenever he gets a chance.

On the plus side, I think this new edit is the best cut of Ali. The most focused, the best moving. It actually feels like a movie with a voice now, rather than a collection of imagery.

[StingingVelvet]

Mann has said himself if he tinkers it's because he didn't think the movie worked yet and released it because he had to. In the case of his best films he doesn't tinker (Insider) or does in a super tiny way most would not notice (Heat).

Don't get me wrong, I think theatrical cuts should ALWAYS be included, but he is messing with them to try and find the best cut, rather than going all out revisionist like Lucas, at least.

[Bates_Motel]

Always loved the film I whatever cut was released, but regardless of the rest of the film, the first 26:30 is maybe the best piece of filmmaking Mann has done (and I love Mann). From the credits to the end of the Liston fight, it's as tightly shot, cut, acted, and directed as any other extended sequence in his oeuvre.

[thatguamguy]

Originally Posted by tenia

I thought "how come he didn't do this for the theatrical release ?".

Very few directors working with this sort of budget have the luxury of putting a release date on hold while they tinker with the editing. There's Martin Scorsese, and... that might be it. (Malick didn't have that power, although he was able to convince the distributor to pull a movie from the theaters once he had a tighter cut to offer.) Post-production is always the part that suffers the worst time crunch when a release date exists before shooting starts.

[sam305]

Originally Posted by HD Goofnut

Anyone having trouble redeeming the UV of this? I have tried it at Sony and VUDU and it says invalid code at each site.

Same thing happened to me.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by StingingVelvet

Mann has said himself if he tinkers it's because he didn't think the movie worked yet and released it because he had to. In the case of his best films he doesn't tinker (Insider) or does in a super tiny way most would not notice (Heat).

Don't get me wrong, I think theatrical cuts should ALWAYS be included, but he is messing with them to try and find the best cut, rather than going all out revisionist like Lucas, at least.

I guess, but seeing as he doesn't make grand 6-part space operas which needed several revisions (in the eyes of its creator) to make certain instalments match up better with others and that he doesn't usually care about making all versions concurrent on whatever format I'd say he's only a CG beastie away from going all Lucas on us. And he second guesses himself as proved by the Last of the Mohicans which got a hugely substantial recut for the US DVD...and then got reworked back to nearer (but not quite) the theatrical cut for the Blu-ray. Thank the maker the theatrical cut of Miami Vice got released on Blu in Europe.

'Trying to find the best cut' is all well and good but persisting with recutting something every time you revisit it means it's something of a moving target, subject to whatever tastes or trends its creator subscribes to at that point in time. Not every film is going to be perfect, not even from Mann, so to keep chasing that dragon just because you can seems more like onanism to me. Sure, some of his films only get small revisions and others big ones under Mann's stewardship but it's like death by a thousand cuts, I really do wish he'd just leave his stuff alone OR at least provide the theatrical in equivalent quality alongside his latest bout of tinkering.

[HD Goofnut]

Originally Posted by sam305

Same thing happened to me.

I gave up trying to redeem it. I just threw it in the trash yesterday. I can always make my own lossless digital copy if I need it.