List of UHD Catalogs that contain Original Audio

[jerclay]

Probably, Godzilla UHD’s 5.1 is an original theatrical mix?

[jerclay]

I would also think DD 5.1 included in The Matrix UHD as a go-to soundtrack is the theatrical mix.

[Geoff D]

Pretty much every post-early 90s movie that Sony have released on UHD with separate Atmos and 5.1 is gonna be the original for the latter, like with Spider-Man having errors in the Atmos that some clueless mixer thought they were "correcting" e.g. the momentary dialling out of all other sound when Norman says "oh!" as his glider skewers him, I always loved that but in the Atmos the background sound is now constant. Small things perhaps but when they add up it gets annoying.

[jerclay]

And what about Groundhog Day? Supposedly the US UHD has DD5.1 (the UK that I have doesn’t).

[Geoff D]

Is that the hidden DD 5.1 track that's usually included with Atmos or an actual user-selectable one? I'd be surprised if the US and UK Groundhog Day discs weren't the same platter.

[WBMakeVMarsMovieNOW]

Originally Posted by jerclay

And what about Groundhog Day? Supposedly the US UHD has DD5.1 (the UK that I have doesn’t).

US disc has Atmos 7.1 with underlying TrueHD 7.1
and then it also has Dolby AC3 5.1 English (as well as AC3 5.1 dubbed for a variety of other languages) not sure if this AC3 5.1 is what you were referring to? It would seem weird if the UK disc didn't have those.

[jerclay]

Originally Posted by WBMakeVMarsMovieNOW

US disc has Atmos 7.1 with underlying TrueHD 7.1
and then it also has Dolby AC3 5.1 English (as well as AC3 5.1 dubbed for a variety of other languages) not sure if this AC3 5.1 is what you were referring to? It would seem weird if the UK disc didn't have those.

Well, no English DD 5.1 on the UK UHD, I’m telling ya. And Dolby True HD on the accompanying regular bd. Weird but true. So I guess the US UHD does have a theatrical mix in lossy format.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by WBMakeVMarsMovieNOW

US disc has Atmos 7.1 with underlying TrueHD 7.1
and then it also has Dolby AC3 5.1 English (as well as AC3 5.1 dubbed for a variety of other languages) not sure if this AC3 5.1 is what you were referring to? It would seem weird if the UK disc didn't have those.

Is this DD 5.1 English track actually user selectable from the US disc's menu or are people just reading the specs off of here? I aks because the specs (on here) are literally identical apart from the US apparently having English 5.1 and the 'Euro' disc having French 5.1, and yet capsaholic's own scan of the US disc reveals the exact same language list as the UK version. Looks like a slip of the keyboard for the US specs unless someone who actually has the US disc can chime in?

[BNex99]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Pretty much every post-early 90s movie that Sony have released on UHD with separate Atmos and 5.1 is gonna be the original for the latter, like with Spider-Man having errors in the Atmos that some clueless mixer thought they were "correcting" e.g. the momentary dialling out of all other sound when Norman says "oh!" as his glider skewers him, I always loved that but in the Atmos the background sound is now constant. Small things perhaps but when they add up it gets annoying.

This is why it's disappointing that The Dark Crystal came out before Sony started regularly including those original tracks. The Atmos corrected a few errors from the previous remix, but left others. And the overall balance of music, effects, and dialogue is a little harsh for my taste.

The Men In Black films also have some weird flanging on the music in their Atmos tracks. I wonder if Sony got some complaints and actually listened to them.

[WBMakeVMarsMovieNOW]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Is this DD 5.1 English track actually user selectable from the US disc's menu or are people just reading the specs off of here? I aks because the specs (on here) are literally identical apart from the US apparently having English 5.1 and the 'Euro' disc having French 5.1, and yet capsaholic's own scan of the US disc reveals the exact same language list as the UK version. Looks like a slip of the keyboard for the US specs unless someone who actually has the US disc can chime in?

I have the US disc. I popped it into my PC and then started playing it with MPC and then looked at the audio tracks it let me select which were TrueHD 7.1 and English Dolby AC3 5.1 as well as various other foreign language Dolby AC3 5.1s. I switched it over to the English AC3 5.1 and it was in English still so not some label mess up, it wasn't French labelled as English, it was English.

I assume a standard player would present the same options, but not 100% sure.

EDIT: actually maybe MPC is presenting the inner AC3 5.1 core from the Atmos/TrueHD as if it were a standalone separate track, I do say it has [sub] marked after it while the foreign AC# 5.1 and 2.0 tracks do not so maybe that it meant to mean it's just a hidden AC3 included with the Atmos and not a different mix, so maybe it's not what a standalone or official audio menu would show, I see even the capsaholic lists English AC3 5.1 core track, so perhaps what MPC is presenting is just that interior sub track, maybe that means it's not a truly different original mix? I guess it is probably just a hidden AC3 core included with the Atmos then. Although is there a reason a hidden (assuming it is) AC3 5.1 would be any different from a non-hidden? I guess they wouldn't hide it if it were different though....

Anyway, I guess it's most likely just a lower quality hidden track and not the original on the US disc either then. And I think my disc would prpbably produce the same scan that the capsaholic one did.

[jerclay]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Even if it actually had a 4-track mag 35mm print it's not a downmix as most cinemas would've gotten the LCRS Dolby Stereo mix in a matrixed Lt/Rt form, i.e. four channels folded into two as was the norm at that time and for virtually every movie ever made in Dolby Stereo (which is why it exasperates me when people insist on watching such 2.0 tracks *in* 2.0, they were designed to be watched in surround).

So if you want to listen to it like in a cinema theater, you should run the said 2.0 in Dolby Prologic to get a surround sound as it was supposed to be heard, right?

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by WBMakeVMarsMovieNOW

I have the US disc. I popped it into my PC and then started playing it with MPC and then looked at the audio tracks it let me select which were TrueHD 7.1 and English Dolby AC3 5.1 as well as various other foreign language Dolby AC3 5.1s. I switched it over to the English AC3 5.1 and it was in English still so not some label mess up, it wasn't French labelled as English, it was English.

I assume a standard player would present the same options, but not 100% sure.

EDIT: actually maybe MPC is presenting the inner AC3 5.1 core from the Atmos/TrueHD as if it were a standalone separate track, I do say it has [sub] marked after it while the foreign AC# 5.1 and 2.0 tracks do not so maybe that it meant to mean it's just a hidden AC3 included with the Atmos and not a different mix, so maybe it's not what a standalone or official audio menu would show, I see even the capsaholic lists English AC3 5.1 core track, so perhaps what MPC is presenting is just that interior sub track, maybe that means it's not a truly different original mix? I guess it is probably just a hidden AC3 core included with the Atmos then. Although is there a reason a hidden (assuming it is) AC3 5.1 would be any different from a non-hidden? I guess they wouldn't hide it if it were different though....

Anyway, I guess it's most likely just a lower quality hidden track and not the original on the US disc either then. And I think my disc would prpbably produce the same scan that the capsaholic one did.

TrueHD/Atmos comes with a hidden DD 5.1 track pretty much by default, it's a lossy backup should the gear in question not be able to handle the lossless track. That's why I specifically asked if it was user selectable from the disc's menu, not whether a PC player can access it because those things can bypass these authoring restrictions, all you're doing is accessing it manually but standalone players are up the proverbial creek.

It could well be the original mix, albeit in lossy 640 kb/s DD, but it depends on the POV of whoever was mastering the disc at the time. Sometimes they'll just re-encode the existing 5.1, sometimes they'll just downmix the Atmos. Ghostbusters '84 appears to have the prior 5.1 mix (though it's not really OG ) as the legacy embed but Blade Runner Final Cut has a downmix of the newest remix. Boo-urns.

As I don't actually use surround sound any more then I can force these DD 5.1 embeds to be played, that as the TV can accept DD 5.1, DTS 5.1 or PCM 5.1 over HDMI then if the player is set to bitstream it will actively seek out the DD 5.1 embed rather than the TrueHD. There's a moment in Groundhog Day where the Atmos mixer 'fixed' a presumed goof, it's when Bill Murray is about to rob the bank and he's timing all the things that are happening. When the dog barks he looks in the opposite direction to where the bark comes from in the previous mix, in the Atmos the bark has now been relocated to where he looks. I'll check the DD 5.1 embed and see what it does there.

Originally Posted by jerclay

So if you want to listen to it like in a cinema theater, you should run the said 2.0 in Dolby Prologic to get a surround sound as it was supposed to be heard, right?

Yep. I know that doesn't jive with what I literally just said about not having surround any more but I'm protecting my knackered hearing, it doesn't mean I stop understanding how it works.

[jerclay]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Yep. I know that doesn't jive with what I literally just said about not having surround any more but I'm protecting my knackered hearing, it doesn't mean I stop understanding how it works.

Things you learn on these forums sometimes! That's interesting, 'cause they do include those 4.0 mixes at times, which I assume is the same representation of 4-channel Dolby Stereo, but unfolded?

[Geoff D]

Exactly, yep. It's a discrete rendition of the matrixed fold-down. The latter is by far and away how most people would've heard it in cinemas at the time, but the former is always welcome on disc.

[jerclay]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Exactly, yep. It's a discrete rendition of the matrixed fold-down. The latter is by far and away how most people would've heard it in cinemas at the time, but the former is always welcome on disc.

So just to make it perfectly clear to me, Dolby Stereo has always been a 4-channel and never 2-channel in terms of cinema sound, correct?

[HD Goofnut]

Originally Posted by jerclay

Probably, Godzilla UHD’s 5.1 is an original theatrical mix?

Done.

[The Fallen Deity]

I know that Batman '89's DD track is a downmix on the UHD but what about the other three films?

I've only watched the discs with the Atmos mixes so far.

[notops]

Originally Posted by jerclay

So just to make it perfectly clear to me, Dolby Stereo has always been a 4-channel and never 2-channel in terms of cinema sound, correct?

This is correct.

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by jerclay

Things you learn on these forums sometimes! That's interesting, 'cause they do include those 4.0 mixes at times, which I assume is the same representation of 4-channel Dolby Stereo, but unfolded?

Sometimes they have discrete masters (L-C-R-S tracks) to work from - these are the same masters the studio would then use to encode to 2.0 Dolby Stereo.

There were also a few releases here and there in the '70s and '80s which featured 35MM prints with 4-channel discrete magnetic tracks with Dolby-A NR. Very rare especially since not a lot of venues left that could play them back properly.

[WaltWiz1901]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

(which is why it exasperates me when people insist on watching such 2.0 tracks *in* 2.0, they were designed to be watched in surround)

I don't like how most people listen to Dolby Stereo matrix mixes on just two speakers, either, but I'm pretty sure they do so because:
A. aforementioned people can't bother to turn on a sound mode that can "unfold" the center and surround channel information baked into the mix
B. there aren't any surround flags embedded into the bitstream (like with a lossy Dolby Surround 2.0 audio track)

I've said it on another thread and I'll say it here: I'm puzzled as to why the two main lossless audio codecs (Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio) don't support matrix surround encoding/flagging on 2.0 tracks - while they both support EX/ES encoding on 5.1 tracks. Dolby TrueHD could've used Dolby Surround, as did/does Dolby Digital, while DTS could've brought back DTS Stereo (their own matrix surround encoding process, used on a few LaserDiscs) for their Master Audio codec. That would be much better than having to manually turn on Dolby Pro Logic/NEO:6/etc. to get a surround output from lossless 2.0 tracks, wouldn't it?