Physical & Digital EST: The Future of Home Video Discussion Thread

[Wendell R. Breland]

From this post it appears Spears & Munsil UHD Blu-ray Test disc will soon be available.

[avs commenter]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Buy some glasses.

You physical media dorks need to grasp that everything is not in absolutes. Content, equipment and personal preference are major factors. Physical does not always beat digital. I've seen it. Sorry to shatter your world.

[cheez avenger]

I also hate the elitism shown by saying stuff like "10k isn't really that much for a UHD HT set-up."

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by cheez avenger

I also hate the elitism shown by saying stuff like "10k isn't really that much for a UHD HT set-up."

To be fair, I don't think octagon was trying to be "elitist" in his post.

It's just that in response to what others have criticized about those who settle for "good enough," he was making a point that for what most people buy, there's always something better out there already available. He wasn't necessarily condoning the most extreme end of an elitist view point (though there are others out there who would, of course).

(Also this all stemmed from a ridiculous statement that alchav made about having to have a certain level of equipment to not be settling for good enough).


I just made the counterpoint in response to octagon about what someone can afford having to be a factor in it.

To compare two relative extremes, in theory, you could have someone with a very limited income that has to save over time just to afford a TV that costs $500. But they could still be doing their best under that circumstance to do their research and get the best TV that they can within their budget. It's not that they wouldn't want something nicer, but it's just not something that is reasonably affordable for them now or in the foreseeable future.

Meanwhile, you could have someone else who has money coming out the wazoo, could easily afford something much nicer, but just doesn't care, and buys that exact same $500 TV model.

While they both end up with the same TV, the mentality is very different.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by avs commenter

You physical media dorks need to grasp that everything is not in absolutes. Content, equipment and personal preference are major factors. Physical does not always beat digital. I've seen it. Sorry to shatter your world.

Physical does beat digital in terms of owning the content in a form that can't be taken away. That is priority #1 for me.

Currently, the only way that digital beats physical quality wise is only if you aren't comparing apples to apples.

If you compare a DVD or even regular Blu-ray disc to a 4K stream, the 4K stream will of course beat the DVD, and probably have some trade-off benefits over the Blu-Ray (with the Blu-Ray still having different benefits that the stream doesn't have, hence the trade off).

But when comparing a Blu-Ray to an HD stream or a 4K Blu-Ray disc to a 4K stream, and the exact same transfer of the movie has been used in both cases (i.e. one isn't based on a better source transfer than the other, which of course will have an impact regardless of whether it is a disc or a stream), the disc is going to win pretty much every time short of some kind of technical glitch or error happening. That covers the content aspect.

And yes, equipment matters. But someone getting a better picture and sound from a stream using much better equipment than someone watching the same content at the same resolution on lesser equipment does not make the stream, itself, inherently better in quality than the disc. If the person with the nicer equipment were to use a 4K disc instead of 4K stream, they will likely notice at least some visual benefit and will of course very much gain a lot via audio benefit.

I don't see how personal preference factors into this argument if we are just strictly talking about picture and audio quality of a disc compared to a stream of the same content from the same source transfer at the same resolution. Even if the stream gets close to matching the disc in visual quality (we know it definitely won't for audio), I fail to see how it will surpass it. At best the stream will look close. Depending on one's eye sight, they may not notice a difference. But in terms of quality, streaming also has the disadvantage of being based on your ISP, the service through which you are streaming the content, etc. Any issue that happens with them, even temporarily, can have a negative impact on the viewing experience with there being quality dips here and there. This has happened with some streaming services, especially at peak viewing times. Unless you consider randomly seeing macro-blocking and other visual artifacts on screen from time to time to somehow be a superior experience, then I fail to see where the benefit is when strictly comparing quality.

With a disc, in terms of quality, you are just dependent on your electrical service, TV (or projector), audio equipment, and disc player to be working properly to get the full experience. And with the sole exception of the disc player, all of those things are still needed to get the most out of streaming in addition to the service providers mentioned above.


Now, if you are talking about personal preference in terms of convenience of not having to swap out discs, being able to watch the content on the go from your phone, etc., that's another thing, but has little to do with "what you've seen" quality-wise.

And as far as my preference goes, I'd still rather have a disc that I know can't be taken away from me over a stream even if the stream were hypothetically of better quality than the disc.


You've proved nothing with your post other than looking like a child having a temper tantrum.

[avs commenter]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

Physical does beat digital in terms of owning the content in a form that can't be taken away. That is priority #1 for me.

Currently, the only way that digital beats physical quality wise is only if you aren't comparing apples to apples.

If you compare a DVD or even regular Blu-ray disc to a 4K stream, the 4K stream will of course beat the DVD, and probably have some trade-off benefits over the Blu-Ray (with the Blu-Ray still having different benefits that the stream doesn't have, hence the trade off).

But when comparing a Blu-Ray to an HD stream or a 4K Blu-Ray disc to a 4K stream, and the exact same transfer of the movie has been used in both cases (i.e. one isn't based on a better source transfer than the other, which of course will have an impact regardless of whether it is a disc or a stream), the disc is going to win pretty much every time short of some kind of technical glitch or error happening.


And anyway, I'd still rather have a disc that I know can't be taken away from me over a stream even if the stream were of better quality than the disc.

I did compare 'apples to apples', 5 times to be exact. And disc only won once. Digital won once and the other 3 were ruled a tie. I understand this is going to be hard for some of you to accept.

One advantage digital has is it's use of ICtCp in Dolby Vision.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

Originally Posted by avs commenter

I did compare 'apples to apples', 5 times to be exact. And disc only won once. Digital won once and the other 3 were ruled a tie. I understand this is going to be hard for some of you to accept.

One advantage digital has is it's use of ICtCp in Dolby Vision.

I was editing and adding to my post when you replied. I suggest reading the rest of it.

As for this point, great, that's how it looked to you. Are we just supposed to accept your word as the end all, be all judge and jury of these quality comparisons? I don't know how good your eye sight is. And in the case where you say the digital beat the disc, was that because the digital version was from a better transfer than the disc? Because that will be a factor either way (whether it falls in favor of disc or digital), and has nothing to do with the inherent quality of streaming or disc.

[avs commenter]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

I was editing and adding to my post when you replied. I suggest reading the rest of it.

As for this point, great, that's how it looked to you. Are we just supposed to accept your word as the end all, be all judge and jury of these quality comparisons? I don't know how good your eye sight is. And in the case where you say the digital beat the disc, was that because the digital version was from a better transfer than the disc? Because that will be a factor either way (whether it falls in favor of disc or digital), and has nothing to do with the inherent quality of streaming or disc.

You don't have to accept my word. Just as I don't have to accept that 'disc always beats physical'.

And yes, preferences are a major factor, especially with HDR. Some, like myself, prefer the bright and bold colors with HDR. While other may find them looking unnatural.

[dublinbluray108]

Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland

IIRC, MSFT did something similar when they shutdown their music service. Don't remember anything about refunds.

Yep. That was called Groove Music. I used to download music from them before it closed down in 2017. They never offered any refunds to those who purchased passes or downloaded music onto people's hard drives. I recall going onto Microsoft support forum's to somehow get my music back from the service. When I did that first; I would have thought that we were getting refunds or getting the lost music tracks back into my library but........no. There wasn't a hope in hell.

Microsoft also had recently ended support for OneDrive streaming of Groove Music tracks since the end of March. As soon as I heard this from a news article; I backed up all of my music tracks from it onto a USB stick for safe keeping. I do have one of my download albums repurchased on CD as a permanent backup to my physical music collection. That is the score of Batman Arkham Origins video game. I currently have that game in my steam library.

I had never any interest in buying eBooks though. I still physical books wherever possible. I am lucky in a sense that I have 3 local book shops available to me. They are not easy to get to by walking. A journey on the bus or having a car is much quicker to get to them. It is great to hear that Microsoft are handing out refunds to affected customers. At least there is something there as opposed to Amazon declining refunds after abruptly removed George Orwell's 1984 from their Kindles.

[cheez avenger]

Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia

To be fair, I don't think octagon was trying to be "elitist" in his post.

It's just that in response to what others have criticized about those who settle for "good enough," he was making a point that for what most people buy, there's always something better out there already available. He wasn't necessarily condoning the most extreme end of an elitist view point (though there are others out there who would, of course).

(Also this all stemmed from a ridiculous statement that alchav made about having to have a certain level of equipment to not be settling for good enough).


I just made the counterpoint in response to octagon about what someone can afford having to be a factor in it.

To compare two relative extremes, in theory, you could have someone with a very limited income that has to save over time just to afford a TV that costs $500. But they could still be doing their best under that circumstance to do their research and get the best TV that they can within their budget. It's not that they wouldn't want something nicer, but it's just not something that is reasonably affordable for them now or in the foreseeable future.

Meanwhile, you could have someone else who has money coming out the wazoo, could easily afford something much nicer, but just doesn't care, and buys that exact same $500 TV model.

While they both end up with the same TV, the mentality is very different.

Thanks for clarifying.

And here I was going to start my $1,300 4k/Atmos fund and got buzzkilled.

[cheez avenger]

I had never any interest in buying eBooks though. I still physical books wherever possible. I am lucky in a sense that I have 3 local book shops available to me. They are not easy to get to by walking. A journey on the bus or having a car is much quicker to get to them. It is great to hear that Microsoft are handing out refunds to affected customers. At least there is something there as opposed to Amazon declining refunds after abruptly removed George Orwell's 1984 from their Kindles.

I don't buy books as much anymore due to space, with exception to certain "Art of" books. I have a few Kindle books and a Kindle device, but I go to my library a lot, so that also cuts costs way down.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by avs commenter

You don't have to accept my word. Just as I don't have to accept that 'disc always beats physical'.

And yes, preferences are a major factor, especially with HDR. Some, like myself, prefer the bright and bold colors with HDR. While other may find them looking unnatural.

Disc always beats physical?

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by avs commenter

You physical media dorks need to grasp that everything is not in absolutes. Content, equipment and personal preference are major factors. Physical does not always beat digital. I've seen it. Sorry to shatter your world.

Personal preference = second best. You know it, I know it.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by cheez avenger

I also hate the elitism shown by saying stuff like "10k isn't really that much for a UHD HT set-up."

Why would you worry about elitists if quality isn’t a concern of yours?

[Steedeel]

Remember guys, disc beats physical!

I will leave you with that thought.

[avs commenter]

haha, yeah, I mistyped there.

obviously I meant I don't have to accept that 'disc always beats digital'. But you knew that

[avs commenter]

Last thing I'll say on the matter....

I'm glad I bought a UHD player and I'll continue to use it. But at the same time, I've been a little disappointed. Was expecting a noticeable upgrade over digital in the visuals.

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by avs commenter

One advantage digital has is it's use of ICtCp in Dolby Vision.

You are so full of it!!! DV on UHD BD is 12 bits, I would wager DV via streaming is 10 bits.

For anyone that cares, a Dolby PDF here.

[Vilya]

Originally Posted by avs commenter

Last thing I'll say on the matter....

I'm glad I bought a UHD player and I'll continue to use it. But at the same time, I've been a little disappointed. Was expecting a noticeable upgrade over digital in the visuals.

I am surprised that you do not notice an improved, more stable, better resolved image, especially in backgrounds and dark scenes.

The few movies that I have streamed in 4K do look very good, but I can see what I generally would call image stability anomalies such as loss of detail in backgrounds, blocking, banding, mosquito noise around edges, unnatural grain movement/ grain size. I am not saying that these issues are huge and in my face distracting, but they are definitely noticeable.

[cheez avenger]

Originally Posted by Steedeel

Why would you worry about elitists if quality isn’t a concern of yours?

I don't usually, but sometimes people just want to qualify themselves on how cool and grand their HT setup is while knocking others down for budgeting. That's great, now STFU.

I don't like buzzkills. That was my point.